Unions fill deptford mall

[Shawnmoore81 623]

The government blows ungodly amounts of money then robs Peter to pay Paul. Then the politicians blame the unions. It's a nice trick since you all we we get to decide what the governor spends money on. There you go believe politicians again. Same with the CEOs.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

And what is with the "union mentality" everyone speaks of. It's called looking out for #1.

 

I worked 4 years under a boss who was only interested in how much money he could take home and how much little he could pay his workers. They used the economy as an excuse to not give raises no bonuses and restructured benefits. When the reality is the company;s loss in sales was basically negligible. So don't act like people who aren't in the unions don't have the number 1 mentality, everyone does, and its the worst when you get to managerially positions in the private sector and even worse in terms of politicians. When i broke my a** at work i got nothing in return, and went 2 years with out a raise until i found a better job. I remember working 10-12 hour days with out breaks working late on holidays like Christmas eve when they asked me stay because they accepted far to great of a work load then they could handle.

[vladtepes 1,060]

And what is with the "union mentality" everyone speaks of. It's called looking out for #1.

 

I worked 4 years under a boss who was only interested in how much money he could take home and how much little he could pay his workers. They used the economy as an excuse to not give raises no bonuses and restructured benefits. When the reality is the company;s loss in sales was basically negligible.

 

did it bother you?

then LEAVE... if the job was so horrible why stay four years? that must have been completely awful devoting over a thousand days of your life to something so bad?

 

when did you finally realize things were not going to get better?

[vladtepes 1,060]

if I take job XYZ... and am not having my needs met.. I move on.. I don't need some group to come in and push around the owner.. pressure them to pay me more.. I have my own voice.. and I am a hard worker if someone doesn't find value I will simply move on.. the notion of a union is totally foreign to me.. unless of course.. I am trying to get paid more than my work demands..

[JackDaWack 2,895]

The only reason i stayed was because i was in college and knew i was going to quit at somepoint. I'm not going to quit one shitty job for another oen and make less money, even though i was already very close to min wage. I was on very good terms with my boss, and it wasn't a horrible place to work, the appreciation level was just at zero. I feel really bad for the people who are stuck there, but what am i gonna do? I moved on, graduated and got a better job. Old boss meet new boss, just now i have good benefits, and still pretty bad pay but still better, and i'm in the field i want to be in.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

You don't just walk on to a job with a union and get a say. During the 5 years your an apprentice you are the ****. You have no say and no opinion. You get grunt work, coffee orders, lugging materials and pain in the a** jobs. If you take that for 5 years and pass all your tests then you have a say and a vote. They can kick you out at any point if your an apprentice but as soon as you pass your trial your good. Then they need a reason such as the code of conduct.

[A-Tech 8]

 

Also the it's not my job isn't about being lazy its about having a specialized craft and that craft being done by the people who are meant to do it.

 

 

I specialize in my trade. I spent years in school. I am Master certified.....I also pick up a broom when my shop is a mess. I pick up a phone when everyone else is too busy. I'll order parts. I talk to customers. I'll DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO KEEP BUSINESS MOVING. Am I rewarded for it? Absolutely, on a daily basis.

 

When I'm retired at 55 collecting a full pension and receiving my lump sum annuity check I'll think of your bag of gravel and think wow I really made a mistake. I'm sure your workers will be canned before that for not being able to climb a ladder anymore. But why would you care you already exploited every dollar you can out of them.

 

 

I can retire at 48, full boat, If I choose to (which will be a VERY pretty penny). I also know many tradesmen that are still working at 50+ perfectly fine. Some I even work with. I actually work with a 60+. No complaints. They do it because they are hard working people who basically just want something to do. They tried the retirement thing, and got bored. They made fantastic money without unions, and are doing perfectly fine now without them still. As a matter of fact, I remember holding the ladder for one of them not too long ago. 58yrs old and still quite spritely. I wonder how I/they managed all that without a union.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

if I take job XYZ... and am not having my needs met.. I move on.. I don't need some group to come in and push around the owner.. pressure them to pay me more.. I have my own voice.. and I am a hard worker if someone doesn't find value I will simply move on.. the notion of a union is totally foreign to me.. unless of course.. I am trying to get paid more than my work demands..

But what happens if the standard drops? Where do you go? If the labor unions were gone, does the standard for labor work become what an illegal immigrant will take? or minimum wage? What's to stop it?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Of course because you experience has got to be the only way it can ever work out. I know guys in my trade that barely make it to 55. Hell we had 3 die last week all under 55. The mesothelioma will kill you. Asbestosis isn't a walk in the park either. Oh yeah then there is lung cancer. We catch non union guys removing asbestos all the time and not telling the employees what it is or giving them what they need. But that's fine because the owner of the company gets off clean of he never says its there and then gets rid of the guy years before he's sick.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The only reason i stayed was because i was in college and knew i was going to quit at somepoint. I'm not going to quit one shitty job for another oen and make less money, even though i was already very close to min wage. I was on very good terms with my boss, and it wasn't a horrible place to work, the appreciation level was just at zero. I feel really bad for the people who are stuck there, but what am i gonna do? I moved on, graduated and got a better job. Old boss meet new boss, just now i have good benefits, and still pretty bad pay but still better, and i'm in the field i want to be in.

 

life is full of choices... no one is ever stuck anywhere... the truth is the job was obviously not that terrible or you would have left.. and that is the point.... you have a set of skills.. and abilities... those attributes are worth something to someone.. if they are of quality.. then you really dont need a "negotiator" you will get what your skills are worth....

 

not everyone deserves to make what a brain surgeon makes (for example) and that is really the core of the problem..

 

unions tell people they deserve $20 an hour to screw a bolt on the frame of a car.. and the truth of the matter is a monkey could do that job....

 

unions create a disproportionate rift in the financial structure of society....

 

I can replace a broken pipe (correctly)

and so can you..

 

but because you belong to some organization somehow you can ask 2x as much to do the same job... that is the part that is ridiculous..

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Or the best one was a company had a homeless guy removing asbestos at night from a school and paying him in cash. That might have been the best. I think that was 2-3 years ago when that happened. Yeah companies never care about the bottom line.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

 

 

I can replace a broken pipe (correctly)

and so can you..

 

but because you belong to some organization somehow you can ask 2x as much to do the same job... that is the part that is ridiculous..

 

That's like saying college degrees shouldn't earn you extra pay. I went to a 5 year accredited school to make more money so how is that different? I have a certificate saying it and a little brown card in my wallet.

[vladtepes 1,060]

But what happens if the standard drops? Where do you go? If the labor unions were gone, does the standard for labor work become what an illegal immigrant will take? or minimum wage? What's to stop it?

 

unions are the reason we have illegals working on farms..

 

we can't get good quality American workers because digging a hole for a union job pays ten times what digging a hole to plant a tree on a farm pays....

 

 

when everyone thinks they need to make 80k a year for rewiring a hot water heater money just becomes worth less and less..

 

take a normal hard working labor job..

pay him in excess...

now he has more money.. so he is taxed more.. he is sold more expensive cars.. more expensive homes.. and can afford it.. because he is making a 6 figure income...

but what happens to the real middle class.. the guy putting out an honest living making $30k a year... he can't do shit because his money has no value.. his lack of union association has diminished the "value" he brings.. this is the true problem with unions.. as the other person hit the nail on the head.. unions inflate the value of labor beyond what is reasonable.. if the value was reasonable it would be paid without union influence...

 

what would happen without unions?

the same thing that happens now without unions.. I make a decent fair reasonable income without the assistance of a union.. my employer pays me well because they dont want me to go somewhere else... they are buying the best help they can afford.. just as people would do without unions..

[A-Tech 8]

life is full of choices... no one is ever stuck anywhere... the truth is the job was obviously not that terrible or you would have left.. and that is the point.... you have a set of skills.. and abilities... those attributes are worth something to someone.. if they are of quality.. then you really dont need a "negotiator" you will get what your skills are worth....

This is the way I was raised, and mentored. It has benefited me in more ways than one. You better believe that is exactly what I will pass down too. Hard work pays off.

 

unions tell people they deserve $90 an hour to screw a bolt on the frame of a car.. and the truth of the matter is a monkey could do that job....

Fixed. That was GM's going rate in Linden shortly before they disintegrated.

[vladtepes 1,060]

That's like saying college degrees shouldn't earn you extra pay. I went to a 5 year accredited school to make more money so how is that different? I have a certificate saying it and a little brown card in my wallet.

 

college degree doesn't mean shit anymore.. I was hired over someone with a college degree...

 

you know what SHOULD matter..

 

not the paper hanging on the wall.. or the little card in your wallet..

what should matter..

IS HOW WELL YOU DO THE JOB...

[JackDaWack 2,895]

This is the way I was raised, and mentored. It has benefited me in more ways than one. You better believe that is exactly what I will pass down too. Hard work eventually pays off.

 

 

Fixed. That was GM's going rate in Linden shortly before they disintegrated.

[checko 180]

 

 

college degree doesn't mean shit anymore.. I was hired over someone with a college degree...

 

you know what SHOULD matter..

 

not the paper hanging on the wall.. or the little card in your wallet..

what should matter..

IS HOW WELL YOU DO THE JOB...

 

+1

 

Competence = job security

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Well that paper says I can be dropped onto any job in the industry and know what to do. If I can't handle it I will be laid off that day. Where a non union insulator may know how to do certain jobs and certain materials I was taught all aspects of it. From estimating, planning, to purchasing, Installing, removing, disposing, I know all the layouts for all the materials, I have all the tools needed. I'm friends witha few non union insulators and they just flat out don't know how to do all the geometry of sheetmetal layouts like I learned in school. So there for I will get a better seal and my product will last longer. That's why I cost more. I am a specialist.

[A-Tech 8]

Hard work eventuallypays off.

 

So you're saying that you shouldn't earn your keeps, and should immediately be compensated top dollar? Whats the point of being an apprentice than?

[A-Tech 8]

Well that paper says I can be dropped onto any job in the industry and know what to do. If I can't handle it I will be laid off that day. Where a non union insulator may know how to do certain jobs and certain materials I was taught all aspects of it. From estimating, planning, to purchasing, Installing, removing, disposing, I know all the layouts for all the materials, I have all the tools needed. I'm friends witha few non union insulators and they just flat out don't know how to do all the geometry of sheetmetal layouts like I learned in school. So there for I will get a better seal and my product will last longer. That's why I cost more. I am a specialist.

 

Being in a union doesn't make you a specialist though. You would still be one if you left the union tomorrow. Your friends just have less knowledge than you. Your knowledge make YOU valuable, not the union.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Well that paper says I can be dropped onto any job in the industry and know what to do. If I can't handle it I will be laid off that day. Where a non union insulator may know how to do certain jobs and certain materials I was taught all aspects of it. From estimating, planning, to purchasing, Installing, removing, disposing, I know all the layouts for all the materials, I have all the tools needed. I'm friends witha few non union insulators and they just flat out don't know how to do all the geometry of sheetmetal layouts like I learned in school. So there for I will get a better seal and my product will last longer. That's why I cost more. I am a specialist.

 

the assumption that every union worker will be more skilled than every non union worker is an assumption made by a fool..

 

 

I have no doubts that you are good at what you do.. I know NOTHING about your career.. but I did flooring for a while.. non union.. by a non union employer.. on job sites with union workers..

 

HIS SKILL and COMMITMENT DESTROYED the union work I observed..

 

YOU are skilled because you CHOOSE to be... because you have applied yourself.. you have learned..

being union has not a single thing to do with it..

[Shawnmoore81 623]

And my union taught me this knowledge.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Being in a union doesn't make you a specialist though. You would still be one if you left the union tomorrow. Your friends just have less knowledge than you. Your knowledge make YOU valuable, not the union.

 

LOGIC... you have it..

[JackDaWack 2,895]

So you're saying that you shouldn't earn your keeps, and should immediately be compensated top dollar? Whats the point of being an apprentice than?

 

I'm saying, that just because you work hard doesn't mean you will be appreciated. Meaning that your boss doesn't invest more in you. I'm not sure how you took that away but im not saying that at all. And there is a starting standard everywhere. People run there business how they like, some take complete advantage of workers while other don't. People open a business to make money, greed is easy to fall into.

[vladtepes 1,060]

And my union taught me this knowledge.

 

it is not relevant if you learned at a union.. on the internet.. or from a hobo under a bridge...

 

it has NO relevance to anything.. you either do the job well.. or you dont.. you are skilled.. or you are not..

 

who is better at making business choices..

 

me - someone with close to 15 years business experience in the real world

john doe - recent graduate of top notch business school

 

does prestige negate my real world experience?

NO..

 

does it matter where you learned to do what you know how to do?

 

I can convert a Saiga in 1 hour.. I am not a gun smith.. I am not trained.. but I do it really well.. could probably do it blindfolded.. does a gunsmith since he is trained and licensed magically do it better?

NO

 

that is the part you are missing..

[checko 180]

 

 

People open a business to make money, greed is easy to fall into.

 

Same as unions

[RS1200XL 4]

I'm saying, that just because you work hard doesn't mean you will be appreciated. Meaning that your boss doesn't invest more in you. I'm not sure how you took that away but im not saying that at all. And there is a starting standard everywhere. People run there business how they like, some take complete advantage of workers while other don't. People open a business to make money, greed is easy to fall into.

 

 

Its a free market. If you feel you can make more with your knowledge, there will be someone out there who will pay you what you deserve. My last job came up with excuses for why they couldn't give me a raise for my knowledge. I went looking while still working, I found a new job which in turn paid me what I felt I was worth. Capitalism is great, isn't it?

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Same as unions

 

I agree, i find it to be a flip of the coin really between the two. Unions hurt highly skilled hard workers.

[checko 180]

 

 

I agree, i find it to be a flip of the coin really between the two. Unions hurt highly skilled hard workers.

 

Like i said, unions do fill a certain purpose for some professions. I have my issues with them as i stated in this thread and dont believe theyre needed for the vast majority of jobs

[GRIZ 3,369]

Ever see a cop dig a hole? How about a teacher? Ever see an electrician arrest someone? How about a laborer teach chemistry? Probably not because it's not their job.

 

As far as OSHA before I got into my union I was a safety coordinator for Madison industrial services team so yes I actually know quite a bit about dealing with OSHA. There are so few OSHA workers in ratio to job sites you may go your whole career and never see one. If you do call them chances are you won't be there by the time they make it out. Unless someone is dead they are in no rush.

 

Shawn you picked the wrong points to argue. As a cop and as a "Special Agent" with the Federal government I've dug a few holes to recover things that were buried. If the police are searching for a buried dead body they don't call in a work crew of laborers to dig.

There are a lot of other things in my law enforcement career that was not in my job description and my agency never trained me for. I've unloaded tons of dope from cars, trucks, aircraft, and boats, disassembled machinery, fixed cars, trucks, boats, radios and a bunch of other stuff. I've even removed insulation to hide surveillance equipment and somehow figured out how to put it back so it looked like it wasn't disturbed. I can't say I ever dug a hole as a teacher but I did do electrical and plumbing work and fixed audio visual equipment. That was nearly 40 years ago so I don't know what NJEA would say about those this today.

 

I can't say I ever saw an electrician arrest someone but I can guarantee you it has happened somewhere as a citizens arrest. I don't think that you can claim an electrician never arrested anyone.

 

I find your laborer/chemistry teacher thing ridiculous. To be a chemistry teacher you need a bachelor's degree which would mean approximately 2500 hrs of class, lab, and studying chemistry, completion of a common education core (history, math, english, etc), and completion of a professional sequence of courses for teacher certification. To be a journeyman laborer you need five years of studying shovels, picks, rakes, and hand tools. I doubt you'll find many laborers qualified to teach chemstry but 99.9% of chemistry teachers know how to use a shovel.

 

You're being evasive about any dealings with OSHA. Yeah there are few of them but did you ever or know someone who called them regarding a serious safety issue on a job site?

 

 

 

40 hour work weeks were created by unions. Saturday would just be another day. I take it you never took history in school

 

Is that the history the union teaches? If you really study your history the 40 hr work week was created by Henry Ford in 1926. He also paid his factory workers twice as much as they could make elsewhere. The UAW wasn't founded until 1935. Ford did this so his workers could afford to buy the cars they built and had time to spend all the money they made. This also forced other industries to pay their workers more which meant more people who could afford to buy Fords cars.

 

Most people, including union people, didn't have a 40 hr workweek until after WWII.