Can anyone explain the factual reason why NJ cannot get its gun laws changed like most other States?

[GunByte 2]

Since leaving NJ and living in the land of few gun laws I have discovered that getting a permit to carry a concealed weapon is much more possible in all but a few States. In other States, groups have been able to get new gun laws passed but what is the problem with NJ which seems to be getting more restrictive? Why can the NRA win in other States but not NY or NJ? Is it because most people are staunchly anti gun? What is the real reason?

[checko 180]

I wouldnt call most people anti gun. A majority of people I know from personal experience don't care one way or another. They figure guns are dangerous, expensive, hard to obtain and unnecessary. I would say they are uneducated and don't actively support gun ownership.

[blizzzarddemon 0]

I noticed in this state its usually uneducated i took a friend afraid of guns to into them in one range trip he even went to national park ranger school and ended up qualifying for guns i took a girl who i dated who grew up being told guns are only used by criminals and murders to a total gun fanatic she is a really good shot too

 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[ruger9 0]

I wouldnt call most people anti gun. A majority of people I know from personal experience don't care one way or another. They figure guns are dangerous, expensive, hard to obtain and unnecessary. I would say they are uneducated and don't actively support gun ownership.

 

Exactly right. IGNORANT. Sheeple.

[M1152 713]

First and foremost NJ has Nanny State mentality politicians. As far as the NRA after the AWB passed the NRA poured allot of resources into NJ and things looked good for a while. We were all set for the override until Donald DiFrancesco refused to put it to a vote up in the Senate. Remember the State Assembly passed the override vote but for some reason DiFrancesco would not put it to a vote. Someone must have had some dirt on Donny boy, after that the NRA bailed on NJ and has not been here since. So to answer your question there is no factual reason, Florio created an "Assault Weapons boogie man" and why people would buy into it is beyond me. Since then it has been all downhill, one gun a month and still no revised carry law. This state is a joke and will only get worst for gun owners and taxpayers alike in my view.

[Midwest 28]

Since leaving NJ and living in the land of few gun laws I have discovered that getting a permit to carry a concealed weapon is much more possible in all but a few States. In other States, groups have been able to get new gun laws passed but what is the problem with NJ which seems to be getting more restrictive? Why can the NRA win in other States but not NY or NJ? Is it because most people are staunchly anti gun? What is the real reason?

 

The media and peer pressure have a lot to do with it. I see references that NJ.Com is anti-gun and people read that stuff and think it is normal. There is not a lot of gun owners like there are in other states. Part of that problem is the permitting process might be intimidating for some, someone wanting to buy a .22 rifle for target practice has to go through a intrusive background check that needs fingerprints, references, mental health checks, fees and long waits for the ID card. Other states people can just get a .22 rifle and be out of the store in 10 minutes. So add the 'intimidation factor' to media and peer pressure.

 

I think the NRA threw NJ under the bus along time ago. It is unfair as gun owners need all the help they can get. Another issue is less gun owners per year in NJ as they are leaving the state (and its high taxes and draconian gun laws behind). Because moving a few miles across the border into PA or further south into Florida ,North Carolina or Virginia is easier in the long run and less expensive than hoping and waiting for politicians to come around and get it. The politicians won't as long as the media and brainwashed public is against gun ownership and casts gun owners in a negative light.

 

As for NY? Their pistol laws have been in place since 1911, but there are upstate counties were you can get a carry permit. No ID cards or permits needed for long guns outside of New York City.

[ruger9 0]

 

I think the NRA threw NJ under the bus along time ago. It is unfair as gun owners need all the help they can get. Another issue is less gun owners per year in NJ as they are leaving the state (and its high taxes and draconian gun laws behind).

.

 

While that may be true, it also seems (at least in my circles), more people who were previously not gun owners, are becoming gun owners. I wonder if there's a way to find out if apps for FIDs increased in recent years?

[mcbethr 42]

The problem has nothing to do with apathy or sheeple or politicians, but it has everything to do with property taxes, and tangentially our 590 school districts and unions.

 

Here me out on this one:

 

In New Jersey, you are either rich or poor. There are very few towns that are in between. Sometimes the rich and poor towns are right next to each other.

 

In other words, you either live in Camden or you live in Cherry Hill. The rich who can pay the property taxes live in the nice towns so their kids can go to good school districts. The poor people do what poor people have done for years: they deal with it.

 

So the rich live in towns where they don't need a gun for self defense. The poor live in towns where they are sick of guns because people are getting shot every day. The end result is that you have two types of citizens: people who don't care about guns and have no exposure, and people who have way too much exposure.

 

It's real easy to pass gun control laws in a climate like that because who is going to fight it? There are really only 3 types of gun owners in NJ: The wealthy gun enthusiasts like me who consider it a sport, Hunters, and the very, very few who have them for self defense. There is just not enough of us to make a difference.

 

If you leave New Jersey, you tend to find lower property taxes and more unified school districts. So there are fewer "good" and "bad" towns. Just "towns" with a good and bad side. If you want drugs or a prostitute, the people from the good side go to the bad side. If the people from the bad side want money, the good side is close enough to rob.

 

In towns like that, where you live in close, but not alarming proximity to crime, you tend to see a gun as a viable too to protect your family - in other words, there is more risk, so more "reason" to own a gun.

 

In NJ, if you want a drugs or a prostitute, do you go to the bad side of Cherry Hill? Nope, there is no bad side. You go to Camden or Atlantic City. The closest think in New Jersey I can think of with a "good" and "bad" side is Woodbury, NJ, or maybe Burlington. But these towns are few and far between in NJ.

 

So this is the real reason why: NJ has effectively taxed crime out of wealthy neighborhoods and contained it, so what do you need a gun for anyway?

[Midwest 28]

While that may be true, it also seems (at least in my circles), more people who were previously not gun owners, are becoming gun owners. I wonder if there's a way to find out if apps for FIDs increased in recent years?

 

I think gun ownership in NJ has gone up due to sites like this one . But I think the major problems are the media, politicians and the gun laws themselves. It seems that for every good news piece that comes out in favor for conceal carry or gun ownership...it seems the media comes out with five or ten stories against it.

 

As an outsider, I have no easy panacea. I could easily say that the gun laws are the reason gun owners leave the state. But maybe there are other contributing factors too like high taxes, crime and quality of life issues.

 

So as an outsider, I need to ask this question.

 

If the guns laws were to magically turn around tomorrow and be the same as Pennsylvania's. Would you still remain in New Jersey for 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or 15 years or never move? I think a poll is in order. I'd like to see people's responses.

[ruger9 0]

In New Jersey, you are either rich or poor. There are very few towns that are in between. Sometimes the rich and poor towns are right next to each other.

 

 

There goes your theory. I am neither rich nor poor. I am middle-class. As are all of my family and friends. Unless you call "rich" people with 30-year mortgages, 2 car payments, and a couple of credit cards.

[ruger9 0]

It DOES come down to ignorance and sheeple. The Franklin quote said it best:

 

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 

people are willing to give up liberty for security. Except they have been told they aren't giving up any liberty, and they CHOOSE to believe it.

 

add to that the media making all gun owners out to be "silly, unreasonable, unnecessary, or just downright crazy", and the sheeple fall right in line.

 

It's called WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

 

And this isn't just about guns... it's about laws of all sorts, the Patriot Act, the TSA, the list goes on & on.

[remixer 1,645]

I disagree that there are only 2 classes of people in nj. im not rich or poor im middle class and i do want the right to carry if i choose.

 

Gun rights are not an an issue of economics its an issue of those who want to protect themselves and those who choose not to.

 

Maybe one reason people in those poorer communities cannot legally own a firearm due to a past offense that might prohibit it, They might just figure if i cant have one the no one should.

[Candide 0]

 

 

There goes your theory. I am neither rich nor poor. I am middle-class. As are all of my family and friends. Unless you call "rich" people with 30-year mortgages, 2 car payments, and a couple of credit cards.

 

I gotta agree with the other poster, the middle class is an endangered species in general but here in NJ the middle class is almost non existent.

 

Yes yes I know you and a few others are middle class but I dont think this site is a good example of the demographics in NJ. Most of us here arent poor, because if we were we couldnt afford to buy guns and shoot.

[remixer 1,645]

There goes your theory. I am neither rich nor poor. I am middle-class. As are all of my family and friends. Unless you call "rich" people with 30-year mortgages, 2 car payments, and a couple of credit cards.

 

Well said, seems like me and you are in the same boat .

[ruger9 0]

I gotta agree with the other poster, the middle class is an endangered species in general but here in NJ the middle class is almost non existent.

 

Yes yes I know you and a few others are middle class but I dont think this site is a good example of the demographics in NJ. Most of us here arent poor, because if we were we couldnt afford to buy guns and shoot.

 

"me and a few others"??? Wow.... maybe you need to get out more...

[A-Tech 8]

 

I gotta agree with the other poster, the middle class is an endangered species in general but here in NJ the middle class is almost non existent.

 

Yes yes I know you and a few others are middle class but I dont think this site is a good example of the demographics in NJ. Most of us here arent poor, because if we were we couldnt afford to buy guns and shoot.

 

I disagree with the middle class theory. In my town (Roselle Park), the average household income is around 100k. That is far from wealthy these days. Factor in a mortgage, car payments, insurances, and any other typical expenses and you have someone that barely gets by. I own guns but took a long time to get them because of my budget. I know for a fact there are others on the site that wouldn't consider themselves wealthy. For instance, when someone asks if they should "splurge" the extra $100-$200 on an optic. That isn't a big deal to someone wealthy enough to buy a $1500 optic. I waited months to get my aimpoint pro. Gun ownership does not directly reflect income status.

 

I deal with people on a daily basis who can't afford to fix safety issues on their primary vehicles because they don't get paid for another week. Just for the record I work in Westfield.

 

As for the comment about rich towns next to poor towns and how guns wouldn't relate to them...I guess the criminals never go to the nicer areas to burglarize? I can think of plenty of high income towns that are surrounded by low income towns. It doesn't work that way. There is no barrier for weapons related crime. I own my firearms for self defense more so than sport, as do a lot of my friends. My neighborhood is surrounded by Union, Elizabeth, and Roselle, while they may have some nicer secluded areas, they are mostly low income, high crime areas.

[Candide 0]

 

 

"me and a few others"??? Wow.... maybe you need to get out more...

 

Out of curiosity at what incomes do you consider people to be poor, middle class, and wealthy. Even better break middle class into lower middle class and upper middle class.

 

It's also dependent on your living situation. My salary alone I would consider myself on the lower side of middle class. However I'm single..if I added a wife who made even a halfway decent wage I'd be living pretty well.

[woodentoe 14]

Out of curiosity at what incomes do you consider people to be poor, middle class, and wealthy. Even better break middle class into lower middle class and upper middle class.

 

It's also dependent on your living situation. My salary alone I would consider myself on the lower side of middle class. However I'm single..if I added a wife who made even a halfway decent wage I'd be living pretty well.

 

Add three kids and you're "working poor"

[Candide 0]

 

 

Add three kids and you're "working poor"

 

Exactly. I live modestly, I shoot a lot, I own a motorcycle, I surf and snowboard (all semi expensive hobbies) I dont carry any debt but I still have to save a little for purchases over 500 bucks. If I had kids without a second income I'd be broke though so go figure.

[BarkNBite 15]

I disagree with the class warfare.......I attended the meetings in the early 90's with the state and NRA Reps. in attendance.....Roger ? forgot his last name......anyway.....the NRA saw back then that NJ was a lost cause and just gave up on us realizing their monies, time and effort could be spent better and wiser in other states.

NJ's libral elected and appointed officials for years have run ruffshod over the State Legal Code /Statutes......Try and explain them......try to understand them.....they are made evasive and unclear by the legal minds here in NJ for a reason......interpretation on some even confuse the judges never mind LEO's....so how could one expect our laws pertaining to firearms to be changed......we first have to change the politic and mindset here.....then maybe in the next 100yrs......something might get changed......OMO.

[mcbethr 42]

As for the comment about rich towns next to poor towns and how guns wouldn't relate to them...I guess the criminals never go to the nicer areas to burglarize?

 

Actually, no. Or at least very, very rarely.

 

Most of the break ins that happen in Cherry Hill are done during the day and are either done by teenagers looking for prescription drugs or landscapers who walk through an unlocked door to take the wife's iPhone or Purse that is sitting on the table as soon as you come in the door.

 

The poor in Camden are not coming to Cherry Hill to rob someone in my neighborhood, the neighbors would profile them in a second. But the poor will turn on each other. The fact is that people from Camden would feel just as uncomfortable in Cherry Hill as someone from Cherry Hill would feel in Camden.

 

When I think of "middle class" towns in New Jersey, I think of Burlington, Vineland, Toms River, Philipsburg. These are towns where you are considered middle class if you are an electrician who is married to a teacher. You know what I'm talking about: it's the family in the rancher house with the Dodge Ram truck (complete with tool boxes) in the driveway and the Hyundai Elantra parked on the street. They are also the towns were a single mother can "almost" make it if she works as a dispatcher at a trucking company, and her ex's alimony checks clear on time. But these towns are few and far between in NJ. If you live in NJ, you either live in Cherry Hill or Camden. Princeton or Trenton. Short Hills, or Newark.

 

Now there are plenty of people on this board who are from Cumberland County, the Jackson Area and the Northwest NJ, but the fact is that most of the decision makers in this state live in a belt that parallels I-295 as it leaves Camden and moves all the way up to Exit 7 of the NJ Turnpike until it reaches Newark.

 

If you live along that belt, you are either rich and don't "need" a gun or you are poor and you are terrified of gun violence and wish all of the guns would just go away. Politicians will always exploit those sentiments. We have effectively contained crime by making it prohibitively expensive to live in an area where crime actually pays: that is middle class towns.

 

The chances of you ever encountering a person from the "wrong" side of the tracks, as you would in many other states, are very, very low. The rich, poor, and shrinking middle class just don't tend to interact in NJ so the chances for crimes of opportunity are rare.

[woodentoe 14]

Being in Woodbridge, I'm not sure I subscribe to your dichotomy or you're either rich OR poor and never the twain shall meet in the Turnpike corridor. It is hardly a "rich" town the likes of Scotch Plains, or Westfield. But, neither is Edison, Metuchen (though Metuchen is closer). So, I think that the theory of the disappearing middle class is not well illustrated in your post.

 

I'm more inclined to agree with the issue of sharing services. The townships are compartmentalized with their own education districts, PD, FD, Municipal services, etc. The extreme upper echelon of the afflent towns tend to be miniscule in geography with enormous local resources. There is definitely a NIMBY culture when it comes to profiling outsiders in those burgs.

 

You much more likely to get spillover into towns like Edison, Woodbridge, Highland Park from not so good areas like Perth Amboy, Piscataway and New Brunswick. I don't think it is as "one or the other" as you suggest. Perhaps that the very affluent towns are a bit "Ivory Tower-ish" full of folks who "don't need guns", and the mid level towns in Middlesex, Monmouth and Mercer Counties are more likely to have hunters or "fudds" who either don't have the bread to own black rifles or don't see the purpose in carrying.

 

I think it is the latter of those two are the most likely to become very pro-gun...regardless of political affiliation. You may even see more of this as town consolidation takes place. I was recently told by a friend that Princeton Twp and Prnceton Boro are consolidating into a single town.

[ruger9 0]

Out of curiosity at what incomes do you consider people to be poor, middle class, and wealthy. Even better break middle class into lower middle class and upper middle class.

 

It's also dependent on your living situation. My salary alone I would consider myself on the lower side of middle class. However I'm single..if I added a wife who made even a halfway decent wage I'd be living pretty well.

 

That's all exactly right, which is why raw numbers (like "tax everyone making 200,000 = taxing the rich) don't matter.

[A-Tech 8]

 

Actually, no. Or at least very, very rarely.

 

Most of the break ins that happen in Cherry Hill are done during the day and are either done by teenagers looking for prescription drugs or landscapers who walk through an unlocked door to take the wife's iPhone or Purse that is sitting on the table as soon as you come in the door.

 

The poor in Camden are not coming to Cherry Hill to rob someone in my neighborhood, the neighbors would profile them in a second. But the poor will turn on each other. The fact is that people from Camden would feel just as uncomfortable in Cherry Hill as someone from Cherry Hill would feel in Camden.

 

When I think of "middle class" towns in New Jersey, I think of Burlington, Vineland, Toms River, Philipsburg. These are towns where you are considered middle class if you are an electrician who is married to a teacher. You know what I'm talking about: it's the family in the rancher house with the Dodge Ram truck (complete with tool boxes) in the driveway and the Hyundai Elantra parked on the street. They are also the towns were a single mother can "almost" make it if she works as a dispatcher at a trucking company, and her ex's alimony checks clear on time. But these towns are few and far between in NJ. If you live in NJ, you either live in Cherry Hill or Camden. Princeton or Trenton. Short Hills, or Newark.

 

Now there are plenty of people on this board who are from Cumberland County, the Jackson Area and the Northwest NJ, but the fact is that most of the decision makers in this state live in a belt that parallels I-295 as it leaves Camden and moves all the way up to Exit 7 of the NJ Turnpike until it reaches Newark.

 

If you live along that belt, you are either rich and don't "need" a gun or you are poor and you are terrified of gun violence and wish all of the guns would just go away. Politicians will always exploit those sentiments. We have effectively contained crime by making it prohibitively expensive to live in an area where crime actually pays: that is middle class towns.

 

The chances of you ever encountering a person from the "wrong" side of the tracks, as you would in many other states, are very, very low. The rich, poor, and shrinking middle class just don't tend to interact in NJ so the chances for crimes of opportunity are rare.

 

I'm sorry. You're living in a dream world. It may be that way where you live, but not anywhere in Union County. Westfield, Scotch Plains, Clark, Cranford...all have low income towns bordering them, and all have crime that originates from the low income areas. Cherry Hill may just be an exception, but that is not statewide, so its not fair to portray that as a standard.

[mcbethr 42]

I'm sorry. You're living in a dream world. It may be that way where you live, but not anywhere in Union County. Westfield, Scotch Plains, Clark, Cranford...all have low income towns bordering them, and all have crime that originates from the low income areas. Cherry Hill may just be an exception, but that is not statewide, so its not fair to portray that as a standard.

 

I'll admit that could be the case. It's certainly possible that I'm dealing with a large enough pool of data. We would have to do some heavy analysis and map out low in come areas and high income areas and see if there is a correlation.

 

But the other question is this: Let's take the inverse. Give me another explanation. What makes NJ so different if it isn't the separation of class?

 

You can't point to "The Media" because NJ really doesn't have its own Media. We have Philadelphia's Media and New York's Media. PA is Shall-issue and New York state is "May-Issue" but a little more permissible then NJ - you at least stand a chance at getting a carry permit in New York State and they rely on straight NICS for longarms outside of NYC.

 

I don't think you can say "Sheeple" because there are "Sheeple" everywhere.

 

You may be able to point to NJ's FID system and say: "Well, the FID inconvenienced people and over time it was just too much trouble to own a gun, so people just didn't do it unless they were enthusiasts or hunters." That could be a reasonable explanation. If you leave NJ, it's quite common to meet people who have one gun at home that they bought, put 50 rounds down range, and threw in their nightstand never to take out again.

 

You *never* see that in NJ, except for maybe some older men who have one revolver or an old .22 rifle. People who own guns here tend to either be enthusiasts who are at the range every weekend or hunters. I suppose you have to be an enthusiast in this state because a person who wants a gun just to shoot once and put in their nightstand is probably not going to want one bad enough to go through the process. But... the state of Illinois has an FID system as well, and they don't have an AWB, bad transportation laws, or capacity limits outside of Chicago.

 

You could point at the acute lack of places to shoot. Maybe people just aren't interested in shooting because NJ is pretty densely populated where most people live and there are a limited number of places where you can shoot? Contrast that with PA, where some people can just walk outside and shoot on their property. Yes, I know there are people in NJ who do that but they either they live in Cumberland or Warren County and like I said before, are outside of that population band. So is it possible that people aren't interested in guns because there aren't enough places to shoot? I don't think so. If you are interested, you find a place.

 

So far in this thread, we've seen: these ideas tossed about:

 

"I noticed in this state its usually uneducated."

"IGNORANT. Sheeple."

"NRA threw NJ under the bus"

"the media making all gun owners out to be silly, unreasonable, unnecessary, or just downright crazy"

 

But many of these items are more symptoms than causes. "Uneducated" and "Ignorant" is a symptom. What is the cause? "The Media" could be a cause, but what makes NJ so special when other states have liberal media as well? And regarding the NRA, have they thrown California under the bus as well?

 

The original question was: "In other States, groups have been able to get new gun laws passed but what is the problem with NJ which seems to be getting more restrictive?

 

I think the genuine answer is because there is such class distinction that the rich see no need for guns and the poor just want them the heck out of their communities. If you don't own a gun, don't know anybody who owns a gun, and never intend on owning one, you don't care what kind of gun-laws the state passes. If you are a poor black or Hispanic living in Camden who equates guns with gang members, or who has had your friends and family shot, you probably think it's crazy to let people carry guns around.

 

Remember what Sherlock Holmes said: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

 

I honestly think that the truth is that there is such separation of class in NJ that the bad guys and victims don't tend to meet up that often. This isn't true in Florida or Texas or PA where there are literally good and bad parts of town and everybody shops at the same Wal Mart.

 

Unless we get some sort of judicial remedy, I do not think carry laws are going to change until we get an equivalent of Dr. Susan Hupp. Some woman - and it has to be a white, wealthy woman who is easy on the eyes (think Emily Miller) who also owns a gun, but cannot carry it - needs to be assaulted and survive the attack with a compelling enough story to change the hearts and minds of every soccer mom from Cherry Hill to Short Hills. Then we will see change.

[ruger9 0]

When I say "ignorant", I'm not using it as name-calling; I mean it literally. Ignorant, whether through believing what they are told by the public school system, media, or govt leaders, the truth and facts about guns and crime... or by seeing the evidence that is contrary to their "feelings" and opinion on the subject, and choosing to believe otherwise - that's "willful."

 

Willful ignorance. Before 5 years ago, I knew not much about about was was REALLY going on with regards to government/the direction of the country/the economy/etc... I've always been politically informed, but I never really dug into the subjects until very recently... it's like "homework"- it's something you have to WANT to learn about, it takes TIME. It takes many sources. It takes reading books (OHNO!), it takes studying the founders intent (not just reading the bill of rights), ...it's WORK. People have no interest in doing that. They simply accept most of what they are spoon-fed (or NOT told) by school and media. Seek and ye shall find.... most people don't want to take the effort to seek, and are willing to accept what they are told, they are not interested in finding for themselves. Sheeple. Being LED, like sheep.

 

Add to this equation the entitlement mentality, whether it's people on welfare, unions pricing themselves out of jobs, or school kids who think their college education should be given to them, and it's no wonder willful ignorance rules the people. The govt is a svengali waving a magic scarf in front of their faces "vote for me, and I'll take care of everything for you"..... as the generations progress, there are less "bootstrappers" and more "entitlees", less taxPAYers and more taxCONSUMErs. It was just a matter of time really...

[BlueLineFish 615]

With the amount of firearms being purchased in this state I think things will turn around. There are a tone of new gun owners. It's not just people buying multiples.

[diamondd817 828]

It's not about guns, its about control. It's hard to keep a State like NJ corrupt at every level of government without control of its citizens.

[ruger9 0]

With the amount of firearms being purchased in this state I think things will turn around. There are a tone of new gun owners. It's not just people buying multiples.

 

That is what I am hearing and seeing as well. All we really need is CCW, and a repeal on the magazine limit. I'll even settle for "one pistol a month". But CCW is almost required.

[ruger9 0]

It's not about guns, its about control.

 

Of course. EVERYTHING with govt is. Including all the entitlement programs. Somewhere along the way, a "hand up" became a "hand out" became a "lifestyle"- which is then govt control of you.