Need help choosing scope for Savage 12 BVSS in 22-250...woodchucks beware

[WGMarlin39A 0]

Hello all. Would like to call upon all varmint and target shooters to help me with my scope choices. As the headline states I'm in the process of acquiring a Savage Model 12 BVSS in 22-250. Its a heavy barreled stainless bolt action with a 26 inch barrel and heavy prone style stock of wood laminate material. Total weight of the rifle without a scope is 10lbs. Its going to be my target practice rifle as well as obviously my dedicated varmint/predator rig. I don't want to skimp on glass with this thing. I've physically looked at only one scope so far. It was at Cabela's and the scope was a Nikon Monarch 5-20x44 SF with side parallax adjustment and their BDC reticle. I was very impressed with the clarity of the scope, and after understanding how parallax adjustment works, was certainly happy with that adjustment feature as well. It was priced at $449 if memory serves. I've read a few reviews on MidwayUSA of the scope stating that some users are having trouble shooting through the scope in multiple positions, i.e. some sort of eye relief issue. Either way, I'm interested to know everyone's opinion of what they like and what they're using for said application. I've researched on MidwayUSA a lot and I've got 3 or 4 different scopes on my watch list, a couple Nikon's, Hawke's and Vortex scopes. I'm not a Leupold fan mostly because I believe you pay for the name and there are other scopes out there whose quality is the same if not better for less money.

 

The questions I have are these: is something like a 6-18 magnification range ideal for a dual purpose target/varmint scope or should I opt for more magnification in the form of a 5-20 or 6-24, etc? Are Illuminated dot reticle's and fully illuminated reticles worth considering and a big help or is that based on shooter preference? Is a 40mm objective enough light transmission or should I opt for a 44-50mm objective? I know from experience that its best to mount the scope as low on the rifle and closest to its bore as possible, which leads me to prefer the 44 or 40mm objective. Let me also say that I've put a cap on my scope budget of a $550-600 limit. Please give me your thoughts gentleman (and ladies?) on this subject. I look forward to hearing everyone's advice and I thank you in advance.

[JonF 79]

My vote would go for the Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP Riflescope with EBR-1 Reticle. Its an excellent scope in at that price point with features you want for true long range varminting like the FFP reticle for accurate ranging and a reticle with generous subtentions for max range flexibility out to 1000. But this all depends on the ranges you plan to shoot at. If you are only doing a medium range (couple hundred yards, up to 600), get the 4-16 or for 1-300, get the 2.5-10. I haven't found much below this price point with a decent reticle that i would pay a single penny for.

[WGMarlin39A 0]

My vote would go for the Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP Riflescope with EBR-1 Reticle. Its an excellent scope in at that price point with features you want for true long range varminting like the FFP reticle for accurate ranging and a reticle with generous subtentions for max range flexibility out to 1000. But this all depends on the ranges you plan to shoot at. If you are only doing a medium range (couple hundred yards, up to 600), get the 4-16 or for 1-300, get the 2.5-10. I haven't found much below this price point with a decent reticle that i would pay a single penny for.

 

I appreciate that JonF. I'll definitely look into that Viper PST. With regards to the ranges I plan to shoot, right now in NJ I can see myself shooting 2-400 yards maybe. 600 yards could be possible If I'm on a larger farm. But within a couple years I'd like to be packing my bags to Montana and as I'm sure you're aware, 800 yards plus out there is not uncommon. Bottom line is I'd like to purchase this scope once and be done with it. It seems the 6-24 gives the magnification range necessary to satisfy most all ranges presented to me. I will definitely look into the specifics of that particular scope and reticle, thanks very much.

[WGMarlin39A 0]

JonF - looking at that scope right now, whats the difference between a first focal plane reticle and a second focal plane?

[JonF 79]

Second FP is the traditional kind that you find in most lower cost scopes where the reticle stays a constant size in the view port even when you change magnification. or, to put it another way, as you change magnification and the image changes, the size of the reticle also changes in relation to the image so the subtentions don't stay the same and require constant re-calculation in your head for range finding and holdovers.

 

First focal plane is what you find on higher end scopes where the reticle shrinks and grows with the magnification of the scope power. The advantage here is that the reticle is always in the same relationship with the image and so the measurements never change. It does incur a cost but its a great feature if you plan on shooting various distnaces ast varying size targets and change your scope power freqeuenly.

 

You can get away with SFP if you just park your scope at a certain power and memorize all the values or have plenty of time to recalculate on the fly when you change it. Otherwise, FFP is a way more useful implementation.

[Old School 611]

Look at Sightron. In my opinion the best bang for the buck out there. You seem to know a bit about scopes so I think you'll appreciate their product line.

[Scrap 4]

I was going to recommend you a Nikon ProStaff which is the entry level Nikon and of which I have two on my .22LR sporter rifle; however, having read you checked out the Monarch line, and having purchased the exact same scope (Nikon Monarch 5-20x44mm SF {side focus} BDC {bullet drop compensating} for my new Remington 700 SPS Tac AAC-SD .308, I would have to tell you you have the absolute best deal I could think of , in my humblest of opinions.

 

I do not mean to suggest others are wrong nor also go against peoples personal preferences, opinions, experiences etc. I came into the guns/optics/accessories industry blind and wide open , without much opinion or bias (I mean I liked some gun brands but that is not relevant to this).

 

When I bought the Nikon ProStaffs for my .22's, I simply took the most advice of people on multiple, unrelated firearms forums and a vast majority loved them back in 2010 timeperiod. When I bought the first, I was looking other brands and lesser powers, but I got an amazing deal on a 4-12x40mm Nikoplex and had read such great things I just jumped. I was so extremely impressred I wound up with another 4-12x40mm BDC for another .22LR sporter rifle I had, and was even more impressed.

 

 

THE MEAT AND POTATOES OF THIS IS, I had literally a nice chunk of money from a small windfull back in Oct/Nov, that when I bought my R700, I could pick out any scope I wanted WITHIN REASON. (Obviously the 2-3000+ and up scopes were not only a little expensive for me they were entirely unneccessary, a wise man knows his limitations and I am not that good. and I think I am better than a lot of people but seriously, i know I am not a $3000 scope shooter.). I had focused in on a top-end Leupold VX3/VX3L 4-14x50 , illuminated reticle, Boone and Crockett which was from $1000-$1300 depending on exact features/model/power/etc. I tried it out at CMO and it was one of their most if not the most expensive in their store. And certainly I said, Wow, you can see how 'clear' this scope is, how nice the reticle is etc. and how great this is compared to say, my $200 ProStaffs, really did make a difference. When i said that outloud, the guy said, oh we have a nice Monarch down there if you're a Monarch guy, I said, Oh I want something really top of the line, he said, Have you even tried it before you say that?

 

Well when I tried the Monarch (I think it was either a 3-9 or a 4-16?) i was AMAZED at the quality/clarity. LITERALLY Lined this up next to a $1100 Leupold VX3 and let me say, itwas ABSOLUTELY EQUAL if not better. *EQUAL* at worst case. Then isaw, it was LESS THAN HALF PRICE. I was amazed. I had also been considering a Zeiss because I wanted top notch. Zeiss and to a small extent Swarovski. I would have been sacrifcing a little bit of power/size with a Zeiss and a lot of that with a Swarovski. But -the Monarch gave me actually bigger/more powerful/ arugably more features than the Leupold I was serious about and FOR HALF PRICE. I found the 5-20x44mm SF BDC for I think like $530 on Dick's website (I like DIck's, they have always been friendlly ,helpful, great service, great prices, ALWAYS take good and great care of me..) Well long story short, when I had my credit card out to order the scope that Sunday night, the dog went nuts, made me take him out RIGHT NOW, and it was pouring rain, I was all upset when I came back, wound up having the computer went to sleep and when it came too I would have had to redo the ordering pages and just gave up for the time being... THE NEXT MORNING, I got 25% off + Free Shipping ONE ITEM, Black Friday becomes Cyber Monday sale for Dick's Sporting Goods email offer. So , I instantly took advantage, and got the SAME XACT SCOPE I wanted and was buying for $530 plus shipping the night before for $397 total 12 hours later.

 

 

I cannot stress how absolutely happy i am. Now when I posted it on here, most of the posters who I don't really coorespond with much were not impressed, "Oh you only got a Nikon Monarch on your lowly R700 SPS. " I could not care less and must stress here- Whatever 'label lust' / 'sticker shock' value I perceptibly lost by buying a Nikon Monarch rather than a Zeiss/Leupold VX3/ Swarovski i more More MORE than make up for with ACTUAL QUALITY, Personal happiness and satisfaction, the higher size/power/clarity / quality etc. and it comes with a box full of extra features AND A FULL TIME LIFETIME WARRANTY no matter what.

 

 

I cannot say how happy I am, nor cannot stress enough how happy I believe you would be with a scope that you already encountered here. You would be probably happy with all the recommendations you have been given, I have personal feelings about some of them which don't belong here, but I CAN AND WILL say you are probably already able to make the best decision.

 

Anyway hope that helps.

[JonF 79]

With all due respect to scrap and his fortress of text, glass quality alone is hardly the only factor one should consider for optics. On the contrary, the scope as an entire package is the only way to make a complete and thorough decision. I mean, at a certain point, you almost expect glass quality to be both good enough and comparable that you need to focus (haha, get it) on the other things that set them apart. Reticle design (is it useful enough or is it just another fudd-plex), eye relief (is it critical or variable depending on zoom), clarity throughout the zoom range (upper and lower boundaries can present a problem), turret adaptability and repeatability (see "box text"), turret tactile feel, turret zero and stop, etc...

[Scrap 4]

To the OP: This is like 3 times now I have got the same response from this guy when I recommend the Nikon Monarchs and 1 time in my own thread when I was showing what I had just got. I don't respond because I don't feel the need to justify my purchase or opinions nor compete tit for tat i know this do you know that or this eys I do no I dont o do you know this that and the other because I do,.

 

I encourage you to do a little research on a variety of OTHER forums , as I did. I am pretty happy with the fact, there is a much larger amount of people supporting and glowingly praising than bashing them, as you can find on your own without mine or any one elses telling you what the deal is.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

I'm not necessarily sold on variable power scopes on varmint rigs. I do have some on a couple of my varmint rifles, but it was more about availability and cost than it was the scope. I also have some Leupold M8 fixed power scopes on two of my rifles - one 16x on a HB .243 Win and one 12x on a .223 Rem. Most people tend to take a variable and crank it to its highest power and leave it there. A fixed power scope has simpler mechanicals (less to break) and slightly less cost. I think that you'll find that just about all scopes - if not all - 10x and above, fixed or variable, have parallax adjustment - the current rage is side mounted, but for years the only PA was on the objective lens. Side parallax is easier to use, but I have to think that an AOL is more rugged - just doesn't lend itself well to having Butler Creek, or other, flip open lens covers. There are some bargains to be had on used glass, you might try here...

 

http://benchrest.com...x.php?a=5&b=207

 

Good luck.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[JonF 79]

Scrap, i think you have me confused with someone else as i dont recall ever harping on your scope selection. However, you certainly seem bent on espousing the wonders of that Nikon everywhere you go regardless of anyone's actual needs. Without ever having looked through one myself, i can speak for the eyebox flexibility or optical qualities, but that BDC reticle is a serious detractor. Presuming it will be the same for any caliber or even any .308 load is a tall order and certianly not as flexible as a well subtended MIL or MOA reticle, don't you agree? Does it line up for all your loads perfectly? And your reply (if you reply), i beg of you, PLEASE make it brief! lol

[Scrap 4]

lmfao, Have you ever looked up Nikon SpotOn buddy? Please do and then get back to me. The BDC reticle is one of the most attractive features on the market right now combined with Nikon SpotOn.

 

 

and no offense to your no offense, but doesn't saying "Without ever having looked through one myself" doesn't THAT invalidate anything and just about anything you have to say negative about it? Notice I had said , I have opinions about this that and the other scopes but I haven't said something like " Sightron sucks" or "Never buy a Vortex" because I have never purchased them and therefore practically used them ,out in the field / on the range/ at home knocking off a little, LET ALONE if I had never even looked through one.

 

 

 

But hey man I really hate to argue with anyone it makes me sick inside to be honest with you , I won't say anything further. I do however think you should do a bit of research on the Nikon's BDC reticle and SpotOn before you render a negative opinion on it.

[JonF 79]

and no offense to your no offense, but doesn't saying "Without ever having looked through one myself" doesn't THAT invalidate anything and just about anything you have to say negative about it?

 

Nope, cuz i'm not the one trying to sell him a nikon. I'm merely stating there is a *lot* more to a scope to consider than just glass of which none of your original reply seemed to touch on.

 

But hey man I really hate to argue with anyone it makes me sick inside to be honest with you , I won't say anything further. I do however think you should do a bit of research on the Nikon's BDC reticle and SpotOn before you render a negative opinion on it.

so now you *have* to use software just to use your reticle? hmm... still nothing a well subtended MOA or MRAD reticle can't handle anyways. Plus it looks quite coarse... how does it handle when you push it out to 1000+ yards? Have you had any issues with obscuring the target? It certainly has the magnification to handle that yardage it would seem.

[Scrap 4]

dude. I give up.

[WGMarlin39A 0]

Wow, didn't mean to start any conflicts with my topic. I'm at work so I'll have to answer everyone individually later, but I just wanted to thank everyone for their input. Still keeping in mind that my budget limit is the 550-600 area I'm giving serious consideration to the hawke sidewinder 30 line and the Nikon monarch line as well as any Vortex scopes that fall within my price range. As of yet tho I still need to do more research and try to physically put my hands on some of these scopes.

[Sixtytwo327 14]

Without ever having looked through one myself, i can speak for the eyebox flexibility or optical qualities, but that BDC reticle is a serious detractor. Presuming it will be the same for any caliber or even any .308 load is a tall order and certianly not as flexible as a well subtended MIL or MOA reticle, don't you agree? Does it line up for all your loads perfectly? And your reply (if you reply), i beg of you, PLEASE make it brief! lol

 

Does it line up with my loads? Yes, it does. I have 40 gr. solid, 38 gr. JHP, 36 gr. JHP high velocity and a 1700 fps JHP Aguila Hyper Maximum round that I shoot. I have click adjustments for all, and I have to say, they're pretty good.

 

I try not to comment about things I've never had experience with - but I do have experience with this, and seriously, you should give them a chance. I'm not a Nikon fanboy, but I do own two Nikon scopes (among others) and have looked through them plenty. The BDC on my Nikon ProStaff 3-9 ($100 after a $50 rebate) on my Savage MKII BTVS is, well, rather incredible. If you've never tried the Spot On system, I highly recommend it. It is not a gimmick. Nikon also offers Mil-dot scopes, like my 6-18x40 Side Focus Buckmasters, which is also a great scope I got for about $300. Aluminum one-piece body, glass lenses, three sets of turrets and a sun shade included.

 

It's not a high-end Nightforce or US Optics. And while Nikon scopes are not going to be carried by Special Forces dudes doing scary rugged things, for civilian shooters like me, who sand a few thousand rounds a year, Nikon offers great value.

 

I was going to build a varmint AR and slap the 6-18 on top before this pricing madness. It's hanging out in my safe. You can try it if you like.

[WGMarlin39A 0]

Sorry for not replying til now, been a busy weekend and got tied up during the week every time I'd try to come on here and respond

 

Nope, cuz i'm not the one trying to sell him a nikon. I'm merely stating there is a *lot* more to a scope to consider than just glass of which none of your original reply seemed to touch on.

 

I totally agree with you, I'm pretty much a newb when it comes to long range scopes. I've never shot past 100 yards at a target or an animal, atleast that I can remember. Thats why I'm trying to look at all aspects of the scopes I'm considering.

 

 

Second FP is the traditional kind that you find in most lower cost scopes where the reticle stays a constant size in the view port even when you change magnification. or, to put it another way, as you change magnification and the image changes, the size of the reticle also changes in relation to the image so the subtentions don't stay the same and require constant re-calculation in your head for range finding and holdovers.

 

First focal plane is what you find on higher end scopes where the reticle shrinks and grows with the magnification of the scope power. The advantage here is that the reticle is always in the same relationship with the image and so the measurements never change. It does incur a cost but its a great feature if you plan on shooting various distnaces ast varying size targets and change your scope power freqeuenly.

 

You can get away with SFP if you just park your scope at a certain power and memorize all the values or have plenty of time to recalculate on the fly when you change it. Otherwise, FFP is a way more useful implementation.

 

Thank you very much for explaining that for me, after reading that and also watching a video on Vortex's website explaining it, I feel I atleast somewhat grasp the concept. Heres where I'm at so far with my decision making/research. I'll try to highlight things in individual findings/facts/observations I've made along the way.

 

- First Focal Plane reticle scopes sound like a great tool to have, but unfortunately most versions in any manufacturer I've found are far north of my price range at the momment. So all my choices will have to be Second Focal plane from here on out.

 

-I'm not too familiar with using a reticle alone to range a target or for bullet drop compensation, did research it somewhat and found that there are two units of measurement. Mil-dots and MOA's. I'm certainly more familiar with MOA's being that it relates to inches, and obviously I'm familiar with its value's at 100 yards from sighting in my other centerfire hunting rifles. Not so much at anything over 100 yards. My research has found that more precisely actual MOA equates to 1.047 inches(i think), and Shooters MOA is exactly one inch. I know there are some high dollar scopes out there whose reticle subtensions are measured in actual Shooters MOA, not actual MOA, but unfortunately again they fall out of my price range. Maybe someone on here can explain to me how to properly use an MOA reticle scope with MOA adjustments for ranging and bullet drop compensation from 200 yards and beyond.

 

-Bearing in mind that my experience using reticle subtensions to range a target and allow for bullet drop is minimal, after using Nikon's Spot on software, I find that it appeals to me on multiple levels. Ease of use and convenience come to mind as the two biggest highlights. The ability to plug in my exact factory load, the yardage I have said load zero'd and get yardage points in relation to the BDC reticle at each magnification setting on my particular scope, multiple print outs of bullet drop and path in inches, trajectory, etc, seems almost too good to be true. I can see a few down falls with it though. You HAVE to know your targets approximate range before hand to use the yardage marks on the BDC reticle as the spot on software indicates. Shooting at groundhogs/woodchucks in a field (or multiple fields) without trees or any reflective objects to use my rangefinder, acquiring targets and ranging them quickly could be a crap shoot. Unless of course I've already ranged pre-determined area's and studied the area that I'm hunting for quite some time before setting out on a hunt. Thoughts and opinions on this observation would be greatly appreciated.

 

-I really like the Nikon Monarch line, I'm looking at either the 5-20x44 SF w/BDC or the 6-24x50 SF w/BDC. I have two issues with either of these scopes though. One of which being the 1/8 MOA click values instead of 1/4. I could see that taking twice as many clicks to reach the same value at extended ranges. The other is will the larger objective bells prevent me from mounting my scope low enough to the barrel to acquire a good cheek weld without trying to rig up a cheek rest on the stock (the Savage BVSS is a laminate wood stock without a built in cheek rest) or having to use high mounts to clear the objective bell.

 

-I also really like the Vortex Viper line. There's two scopes from them I'm interested in. There's the HS LR model in 4-16x44 or the regular Viper 6.5-20x44 PA. Vortex has similar software and reticles as Nikon, they offer something on their website similar to Nikon's Spot On and also have their Dead hold BDC reticle which I like as well. Not sure exactly how to use their "LRBC" software on their website, seems a bit more confusing than Nikon's Spot On stuff but still its there and a nice feature, much easier than going in blind trying to figure out their Dead Hold BDC reticle.

 

I'm on the fence, either the Vortex Vipers or the Nikon Monarch. The Nikon's have the Spot On software which I like and was able to understand very quickly. I've actually looked through the 5-20x44 SF model and really liked it (haven't looked through a Vortex yet). Not sure if I like the idea of the 1/8 MOA turret adjustment tho. I like that the Vortex's are all 1/4 MOA click values, I like that they offer a similar BDC aid with their LRBC software online. The Vortex's LRBC seems a bit more complicated and harder to understand, but I'm sure I could figure it out. As far as magnification I'm still undecided whether to go with a 4-16 or a 6 or 6.5-20 scope. Maybe you guys can chime in as to which you think works best for a mix of target and varmint/woodchuck hunting. All thoughts, opinions, concerns and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much everybody.

[WGMarlin39A 0]

Pink Floydish Referance - Anybody out there?

[Sixtytwo327 14]

If you've been researching, you might have come across these, but if not, here is a video from the NSSF that's a great overview of MOA:

 

http://www.youtube.c...bed/VA2PZBD5Tjg

 

And the same host explaining Mils:

 

http://www.youtube.c...bed/S5AGsHSIsVo

 

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if there is any more advice to give, because the things you are debating are personal preference, not "good vs. better." You've done the research; I say pick one (flip a coin if you have to) and start learning to use the one you pick. There's only so much you can learn via the Internet. Good luck, have fun & shoot safe.

[WGMarlin39A 0]

If you've been researching, you might have come across these, but if not, here is a video from the NSSF that's a great overview of MOA:

 

http://www.youtube.c...bed/VA2PZBD5Tjg

 

And the same host explaining Mils:

 

http://www.youtube.c...bed/S5AGsHSIsVo

 

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if there is any more advice to give, because the things you are debating are personal preference, not "good vs. better." You've done the research; I say pick one (flip a coin if you have to) and start learning to use the one you pick. There's only so much you can learn via the Internet. Good luck, have fun & shoot safe.

 

Thank you SixtyTwo. The MOA video was very helpful. Makes me lean more towards the Viper PST since the idea of using the reticle to range or compensate without having to use a range finder peaks my interest. At this point I believe you're correct, I need to just pick one that I like the most. I don't like buying or ordering optics unless I can hold them in my hand and look through them. I've got Cabelas in PA holding me 3 different scopes. I'll be going on Saturday to try them all out and hopefully pick one. Thank you very much everyone, and wish me luck.

[WGMarlin39A 0]

Well, I pulled the trigger on a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP EBR1-MOA illuminated reticle. I checked out that, the same scope with the mildot reticle, and a Nikon Monarch 5-20x44. After spending alot of time looking through both Vortex Scopes and then back to the Monarch, it wasn't nearly as impressive anymore.

 

The Viper PST's are just an amazing scope, super clear, easy to use, full of features and I liked the reticle much better than the Nikon BDC. The illumination dial even has off positions in between the power settings so you don't have to turn it all the way down or up to shut it off. Vortex thought of everything it seems, and the features far outweigh the cost when you look at similar scopes that cost twice as much like Nightforce, Zeiss, and Swarvoski (sp?). I dropped the scope off at Heritage so they can get some good solid rings and one piece base for it and mount it up and bore sight it. Once I get it home, hopefully later in the week, I'll take some pictures. Very excited to say the least. Thank you everyone on here for all your help and advice.

[JonF 79]

I think you'll like that EBR reticle much better than teh BDC , especially if varminting/hunting is going to be part of your routine. Ranging with the vortex is going to be much easier with a linear system, especially in the FFP.

[WGMarlin39A 0]

I think you'll like that EBR reticle much better than teh BDC , especially if varminting/hunting is going to be part of your routine. Ranging with the vortex is going to be much easier with a linear system, especially in the FFP.

 

Thank you JonF again for your recommendation. And you are exactly correct, I really like the EBR reticle, the FFP advantage and the whole scope and rifle in general. Just got it home friday afternoon. Here's some kinda crappy pics after I got back from the range Friday evening. Ran out of time and was only able to get it sighted in at 25 yards. The action was loose and I had to bore sight it myself at the range after spending hours trying to get it on paper at 50. Went back to 25 after fixing those problems and was able to get it punching the bullseye out at that range but ran out of time. Its brand new so there's always going to be kinks to work out of a new rifle, I'm confident my next trip to the range will see me at 100 yards really starting to dial it in. My ultimate goal is to zero it at 250 yards once I can join a range that has the longer yardages I need. At 100 yards the 22-250 is barely breaking a sweat.