AR vs. lever action reliability

[RUTGERS95 890]

I have been lusting after this thing for years:

Doesn't mean I would grab that out of my safe before my AR if I could only grab one gun.

 

I want to build up 2 of them, one in .45-70 and one in .38/.357. It could make a decent alternatve in states where you can't have an AR or other semiauto rifle. The main reasons I haven't done it yet are directly related to the reliability issues I have had when shooting the leverguns I have had access too.

that just hurts to look at.......

[louu 399]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was gona be dumb but it was a pretty good and funny read. I think most of you guys need to take off the tin foil (I'm just messing with ya). SHTF will never happen in this country, but then again they were saying the same thing in Germany 70 years ago. I don't have either rifle so I cant comment on the poll. If I did I would go with the fake M-16 because "America is all about speed, hot nasty bad ass speed." Eleanor Roosevelt.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Some people have visions of playing call of duty in real life, and some have done it in real life. I for one have used the 16 in the butthole of the world and it let me and my crew down frequently. Everything from hajji being drugged up and getting hit multiple times with a 556 but still stays in the fight, to seeing American servivemen either killed or injured because of failures of their weapon. Trust me from experience being in the shit isnt like a video game or being at the range at cherry ridge, you get dirt and dust in places you never thought you could get dirt, and in real life nothing is worse than a weapon failure. Nothing is like having to shout to your crew that your weapon jammed, and hearing someone else shout back me too. There is more to weapons reliability testing than youtube videos, ar15.com, and shooting at the range. I carried one in real life and seen all of its inadequacies in real life, i for one will never carry one again if my life depends on it

Okay i'll give the counterpoint on this. I've been using ARs/M16s/M4s just about continuously since 1968 in the military and as a LEO. I would hazard a guess that I've probably shot more rounds thru them then just about everybody on this forum and I don't make idle claims. I used them socially in SE Asia shortly after most of the problems were recognized. BTW we ran them well lubed so that's not a recent discovery as some may think. I did what they told me to do and didn't encounter all these problems you say. If a lot of people in your squad are having their M16s/M4s jam, they are not doing something correctly. The AR/M16/M4 is my choice for a go to rifle. I've used it in all kinds of conditions jungle, forests, deserts, and extreme cold and it has always worked for me. I don't think they gave me magic rifles.

 

If you want to ignore my 45 years of experience that's your option. Let's look at what the "pros' use. Have you read Bravo Two Zero? Those SAS guys could have chosen any rifle they wanted including AKs but what did they choose? M16s.

 

Read Blackhawk Down? How many mentions of M4s/M16s jamming do you recall? I don't recall any.

 

Sole Survivor? Mentions of malfunctions? None that I can remenber.

 

Pros take care of their stuff and it doesn't let them down.

 

As far as some of mystique of the AK IMO its a good rifle for the other side to use. Yeah, you can pour cement in the action and it will still work but at the expense of accuracy. Yes there are people here who have AKs that are pretty accurate but that's not your typical Russian or Chinese AK issued to the troops.

 

M14 is not a bad rifle but its also not the panacea most people think. I have never seen an issued M14 that will shoot more accurately than your typical issued M16. The whole system is heavier and that's a negative. I carried one when I first got to Vietnam and they lose a lot of the "uber-reliability" when they're out in the mud and the blood and the beer. No worst then a 16 but not much better if at all. Stopping power? Yeah more but I've also seen someone take 6rds of 7.62 NATO from an M60 and still keep coming. If you don't hit something vital that's what happens.

 

So if you've been in a fight you know you can't always plan to hit what you are aiming that even at 50 yards. Having more ammo on you is important in those circumstances. Shooting at a bobbing and weaving target means its harder to hit and when you do its not always something vital.

 

AR platform in 5.56 is my pick.

 

No one has mentioned these things so I will. Put a good dent in that magazine tube and you now have a single shot. The trajectory of most lever action cartridges is like a mortar compared to a 5.56. You can hold dead on with a properly zeroed 5.56 and hit a torso size target out to 250 meters or so. That's well within the range of what most people can actually hit a target. If you're more than 250 meters away you can manuever to engage the enemy or beat feet whatever the situation calls for. There are just too few rifle fights that are much farther than 250 meters and at that range most issued AKs are shooting patterns not groups.

[lunker 274]

I like that you slipped in a Johnny Cash line in your post.

[Edge 6]

I don't think the current board will make it to the spring so let's not worry about them.  From what I hear, there may be some tax and legal issues that get spilled much less proof of theft

I don't want to hijack the thread, but what is it you're hearing about the BOD? What's going on??

[Edge 6]

I don't think the current board will make it to the spring so let's not worry about them.  From what I hear, there may be some tax and legal issues that get spilled much less proof of theft

 

 

??????????

[raz-0 1,259]

Just as a data point, I read a nice write up by a veteran who got to use the m1/m14 pattern rifle in the Middle East. Their position was that it fas less frequently but when it does it's not really solvable in the field. Namely things like bent op rods due to the sand.

 

With talc like sand anything with any kind of precise tolerances is on borrowed time.

[Edge 6]

I don't think the current board will make it to the spring so let's not worry about them.  From what I hear, there may be some tax and legal issues that get spilled much less proof of theft

 

Rutgers, again, what are you hearing......?

[supranatural 66]

Im not inclined to take ANYTHING Nigerians say seriously..while youre there ask what the latest email scam is..

I read that the soldiers in Israel, who have a choice of grabbing either AKs or M16s invariably take the 16...I think I'd lend a lot more credence to some of the finest soldiers in the world versus e Nigerians...

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[High Exposure 5,664]

I read that the soldiers in Israel, who have a choice of grabbing either AKs or M16s invariably take the 16...I think I'd lend a lot more credence to some of the finest soldiers in the world versus e Nigerians...

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think "finest soldiers in the world" is pushing it a bit..... Just sayin.....

 

But that is common practice in most of the worlds modernized armed forces. The folks that can choose what they want - typically the SF units - typically choose the M16 FOW even if the standard issued weapon is something else.

[RUTGERS95 890]

I think "finest soldiers in the world" is pushing it a bit..... Just sayin.....

 

But that is common practice in most of the worlds modernized armed forces. The folks that can choose what they want - typically the SF units - typically choose the M16 FOW even if the standard issued weapon is something else.

spot on both counts.....the modularity and accessories is really second to none

 

ironically, we had units get in trouble in Iraq early on for grabbing and using ak's as the dry lube used attracted the fine dust and impaired functionality.