AR vs. lever action reliability

[vladtepes 1,060]

 

 

How so?

I've never put 100 rounds through a lever without some sort of cycling malfunction. I've put 10K+ through ARs without any malfunctions.

School me.

+1

 

While I am not into the tens of thousands yet.... I have three AR type rifles..... And the malfunctions list is extremely short... The 14in gun as far as I can remember has never malfunctioned and that is definitely the highest round count....

 

The 308 ar I have been able to get dirty enough to not cycle.... And the 7in gun I had some issues when it was first built...

 

But all in all a standard modern AR can take quite a bit of abuse and neglect without failure... Or at least mine has...

[Sht 3]

Considering if I lived in a free state & could get me some of those real mags. I think I could shoot my ar fast enough to melt my hand guard before a lever gun could dump 20-25 rounds. Yea I rather melt my hand guard & be alive.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: before anyone gets all crazy it's a joke

[HavocMan 13]

hmmm...I wonder which rifle Custer and his guys would have chosen?

 

Given the opportunity to upgrade, does anyone think the Continental Army would have chosen a lever gun over an AR?

 

Out of curiosity, do any of you lever gun guys actually own any AR pattern rifles?

[JSF01 13]

Reliability wise Lever action wins hands down. That said when it comes to a SHTF scenario if I could only grab one it would probably be an AR, though it really depends on the exact situation. One thing that people seem to forget when it come to a SHTF scenario is the beginning stages of it, and instead focus on +1 year time frame type scenario that every apocalyptic type TV series.

 

Let's go with an EMP type scenario for example, and you are located some where in NJ. After the event that wipes out most if not all electronics cities will quickly run out of resources. After which desperate hungry people would flood out in mass. There would be millions of people from NY city alone most likely heading south into NJ looking for food and other recourses. That's a recipe for large gangs of people that are desperate enough to use violence to take what they want/need. I would not be surprised if you had to deal with gang of 50+ people in the first couple of months after such a SHTF scenario, in which case the AR is the weapon of choice. It does not mater how much more reliable a Lever action is in the long term if you don't make it pass the short term in the first place.

 

On the other hand suppose its the same scenario but instead of you being in NJ you are in the middle of MT, most likely you are not going to have to deal with large gangs of people. In which case having a firearm that will be more reliable for a longer period of time, especially if the situation goes on long enough that people start reloading with home made black powder,so a lever action may make more sense.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Reliability wise Lever action wins hands down. That said when it comes to a SHTF scenario if I could only grab one it would probably be an AR, though it really depends on the exact situation. One thing that people seem to forget when it come to a SHTF scenario is the beginning stages of it, and instead focus on +1 year time frame type scenario that every apocalyptic type TV series.

 

Let's go with an EMP type scenario for example, and you are located some where in NJ. After the event that wipes out most if not all electronics cities will quickly run out of resources. After which desperate hungry people would flood out in mass. There would be millions of people from NY city alone most likely heading south into NJ looking for food and other recourses. That's a recipe for large gangs of people that are desperate enough to use violence to take what they want/need. I would not be surprised if you had to deal with gang of 50+ people in the first couple of months after such a SHTF scenario, in which case the AR is the weapon of choice. It does not mater how much more reliable a Lever action is in the long term if you don't make it pass the short term in the first place.

 

On the other hand suppose its the same scenario but instead of you being in NJ you are in the middle of MT, most likely you are not going to have to deal with large gangs of people. In which case having a firearm that will be more reliable for a longer period of time, especially if the situation goes on long enough that people start reloading with home made black powder,so a lever action may make more sense.

 

 

You state that a lever gun wins reliability wise hands down. Where do you get the data that supports that?

 

A gun that is maintaned but never used will certainly last longer than a gun that is used, even occasionally. Either way, I have 10s of thousands of rounds thorough my ARs with no issues. I have supervised many more rounds through student/trainees guns with very few issues. The issues that were found were traced directly back to dry guns (see below), bad mags, and weapons that were not built to the standard (parts is parts syndrome).

 

I have a few hundred through 3 leverguns with quite a few problems, including one rifle that was turned into a club.

 

The preventative maintenance schedule I follow for my ARs has the first part to be swapped (the bolt) at 5000 rounds. How many lever guns have 5k rounds through them before there is an issue? How many have 5000 rounds through them at all?

 

Not to mention tha fact that if I have fired 5000 rounds in the "apocalypse" I am doing something seriously wrong.

 

 

Eh, yall can keep your plastic. Im gonna stick with stopping power and reliability. You can fantasize all you want about becoming a post apocalyptic "operator." But i am planning on making every shot count so i'll need some stopping power. I am thinking about motor oil as a lube, not space age teflon or amphibian lube or whatever they are peddling on ar15.com this week. How many levers are 100yrs old or more and still taking deer?

A few quick things here.

 

First, the lube - you can run - and I have verified/tested - an AR on:

Spit

Butter

Vagisil

Motor oil

Grease

Astroglide

Olive oil

Vegetable oil

Crisco

 

I am sure there are more, but that is the extent of my personal experience. You may have to apply more often, and most of these will stink when they get hot, but the gun will run.

 

Second, those leverguns that have been around for 100 years, how many rounds do you think are thorough them? Total in their entire lifespan, how many rounds has that 100 year old gun fired? What was the mean number of rounds between failures of any kind? How many rounds do you put thorough a rifle during hunting season?

 

I bet I have put more trouble free rounds through my primary work AR in the last year than any 100 year old evergun you have ever heard of.

 

Third, by all accounts the M14 is more finicky than any AR, still requires lube, requires just as much - if not more - logistical support than an AR. Is heavier with heavier ammo, and can not be broken in half and stored in a backpack when you want to be low key and not advertise you are armed.

 

Fourth, you can't rely on military shooting reports to confirm the ability of the 5.56. The terminal effects of a 64gr soft nose or an all copper Barnes round is a lot different than M855 or SS109.

 

"operator" I also plan on making every shot count. Assuming the shooters are equal, what is the deciding factor. The AR is faster to shoot accurately, has higher capacity, a faster reload, easier to shoot on the move. What are the advantages to the levergun in an actual gunfight?

 

I say let's take Vad G up on his offer. If he doesn't mind I want in. See what shakes...

[Vlad G 345]

High Exposure, if any of lever gun supporters take me up on my offer you are certainly welcomed to join us, but for some reason I just don't think they will.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

First, the lube - you can run - and I have verified/tested - an AR on:

Spit

Butter

Vagisil

Motor oil

Grease

Astroglide

Olive oil

Vegetable oil

Crisco

 

 

 

^^ Now this guy has some fun times.... lol.

[RUTGERS95 890]

holy fk was it cold last night at the RU game

 

I'm in....once I thaw out:)

[usnmars 136]

High Exposure, if any of lever gun supporters take me up on my offer you are certainly welcomed to join us, but for some reason I just don't think they will.

I have been out of the country for the past couple of months, and will be for the next few months. I head over to the lovely Democratic Republic of Congo next. Once i do finally get home and re-Americanized i`ll take you up on your offer.

[usnmars 136]

As a side note, last time i was in Nigeria they were selling 16`s cheaper than aks. When i asked why they said, those guns are good for nothing.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

High Exposure, if any of lever gun supporters take me up on my offer you are certainly welcomed to join us, but for some reason I just don't think they will.

 

Vlad,

 

As you know I like the Old-Timey shootin' Irons, and I can operate just about ANY gun out there, from black powder to a .50 BMG Barrett.  I would LOVE to come and watch this spectacle if it ever happens!  Even I am NOT crazy enough to take you up on this challenge, as IMHO and with my life experiences, there is simply NO F-ing way a lever gun can do what the AR platform guns can do IN MOST CASES (and I own several levers)!  And if you consider Matt's AR-10 in .308, now you even take-away the poor penetration factor of 5.56 (most common rounds, NOT AP specialty ammo).

 

After 44 years behind the trigger I have come to realize that SOME of the Posters here are juvenile Gas Bags.  They know little but profess to know it all.  Sometimes it's really entertaining to "read the mail", and most of the time it's just a waste of time.  This thread is one of the entertaining ones, so good luck with the challenge, lol.  I can't wait to watch  

 

Dave

[jrfly3006 42]

As a side note, last time i was in Nigeria they were selling 16`s cheaper than aks. When i asked why they said, those guns are good for nothing.

Im not inclined to take ANYTHING Nigerians say seriously..while youre there ask what the latest email scam is..

[JSF01 13]

To be honest I don't think such a competition is going to tell you which one is more reliable, assuming that both the AR and Lever rifle are of good quality and condition. A real test for which one is more reliable would be to simulate some conditions that you might have to endure or come across during a long term SHTF scenario.  Lets suppose that you ran out of or no longer have access to proper lubrication so you are forced to use something like used motor oil. What if you drop it in sand or mud, would it still function flawlessly, without cleaning? What about if the weather went from 40 degrees with a drizzle to 0 and snowing while you slept outside with your firearm near by, would it still function without failures? What if you could not get any ammo for it and were forced to reload with black powder? There is a lot that could happen during a SHTF scenario

 

Now don't get me wrong I'd still take an AR over a lever action for most SHTF scenarios Like I said before maximum long term reliability does not mean any thing if you don't make  it to the long term which the AR would be 1000 times better for in the vast majority of situations.

[vladtepes 1,060]

To be honest I don't think such a competition is going to tell you which one is more reliable, assuming that both the AR and Lever rifle are of good quality and condition. A real test for which one is more reliable would be to simulate some conditions that you might have to endure or come across during a long term SHTF scenario.  Lets suppose that you ran out of or no longer have access to proper lubrication so you are forced to use something like used motor oil. What if you drop it in sand or mud, would it still function flawlessly, without cleaning? What about if the weather went from 40 degrees with a drizzle to 0 and snowing while you slept outside with your firearm near by, would it still function without failures? What if you could not get any ammo for it and were forced to reload with black powder? There is a lot that could happen during a SHTF scenario

 

Now don't get me wrong I'd still take an AR over a lever action for most SHTF scenarios Like I said before maximum long term reliability does not mean any thing if you don't make  it to the long term which the AR would be 1000 times better for in the vast majority of situations.

Motor oil will keep an ar lubricated.... No question...

 

If you ran out of ammo I'm going to assume that it would be pretty likely to come across 556 / 223

[vladtepes 1,060]

You could stack the cards in such a way where the ar would fail.... But the reality is in a shtf scenario it would be reasonable to assume that you have made some planning... And will have some supplies.... Sure they could get lost... Or something like that... But like I said my ammo rig for ar has loaded magazines... Bore snake... Lube... And a spare lower parts kit.... In a worst case scenario.... I have on my persons the means to fix my ar out in the field...I get the core of the debate does not allow that provision... But from a practical standpoint....

[SgtToadette 59]

This really seems like pitting a Model T against a Honda Accord in a drag race. It's going to be a massacre.

[Vlad G 345]

Well guys, I'm up for it. It is up to you if you want to do it in the pits of winter or want to do it in spring or want to wait for unsmars to gets back. I'll gladly act as the host at Old Bridge (because CJ will probably frown on some of the things).

 

Let me know when you want to do it.

[SgtToadette 59]

I would like to bear witness to this historic event!

[RUTGERS95 890]

Well guys, I'm up for it. It is up to you if you want to do it in the pits of winter or want to do it in spring or want to wait for unsmars to gets back. I'll gladly act as the host at Old Bridge (because CJ will probably frown on some of the things).

 

Let me know when you want to do it.

I don't think the current board will make it to the spring so let's not worry about them.  From what I hear, there may be some tax and legal issues that get spilled much less proof of theft

[mipafox 438]

Reliability wise Lever action wins hands down.

Every single lever gun on the planet will malfunction 50x before a real AR will malfunction once (if ever).

 

Every single lever gun on the planet will break 10,000 rounds before a real AR will break.

 

This is not a matter of opinions, or a matter of degree, it's 100% bullshit.

 

You can bring 5 lever guns with whatever normal ammo you shoot out of them and every single one will have a malfunction before my AR and all them will break before my AR busts a spring.

 

Full horseshit.

[vjf915 456]

you really think a lever will not be more reliable than an AR?  How many moving parts on a lever vs an AR?

How many moving parts in a rotary engine vs a traditional internal combustion engine?  Obviously my experience isn't nearly as extensive as others on here, however you simply cannot argue reliability based solely on the number of moving parts.

[vjf915 456]

Every single lever gun on the planet will malfunction 50x before a real AR will malfunction once (if ever).

 

Every single lever gun on the planet will break 10,000 rounds before a real AR will break.

 

This is not a matter of opinions, or a matter of degree, it's 100% bs.

 

You can bring 5 lever guns with whatever normal ammo you shoot out of them and every single one will have a malfunction before my AR and all them will break before my AR busts a spring.

 

Full horseshit.

This sounds like a better test.  Loser pays for all the ammo??

 

For the record, I have more experience with my AR than I do with any lever gun.  I also feel that practicality plays a huge part.  AR it is.

[Parker 213]

I read this article on the MarlinOwners forum a couple years ago. I dug it up for any lever action operators/aficionados who might be interested. Enjoy.

 

http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/04/the-combat-lever-action-rifle.html#.UqeUvDfwa59

[High Exposure 5,664]

I have been lusting after this thing for years:

Doesn't mean I would grab that out of my safe before my AR if I could only grab one gun.

 

I want to build up 2 of them, one in .45-70 and one in .38/.357. It could make a decent alternatve in states where you can't have an AR or other semiauto rifle. The main reasons I haven't done it yet are directly related to the reliability issues I have had when shooting the leverguns I have had access too.

[Respect2A 0]

I have a marlin lever in 35 Remington. Lemme tell you it's a powerful round. Lots of stopping power.

[Vlad G 345]

I don't think anyone is arguing the lever guns aren't powerful. 

[High Exposure 5,664]

I have a marlin lever in 35 Remington. Lemme tell you it's a powerful round. Lots of stopping power.

Intriguing.... Tell me more about this "stopping power".

 

What is stopping power?

What units is it measured in?

Is it SAMMI specified?

How do you determine what round has more of it?

Is it a variable feature of a cartridge based on shot placement or is it a universal fact inherent in a cartridge?

Does a missed shot have the same stopping power as a hit?

Is it based in size, weight, or velocity of the projectile or is it some combination?

Does a round have the same stopping power when hitting a squirrel as a bear?

Does stopping power trump shot placement?

Does stopping power trump capacity?

Is it based on potential performance in the chamber or on real results at the time the shot is fired?

What is the cutoff for minimum acceptable stopping power?

How about maximum acceptable stopping power?

[lunker 274]

Uh oh. Here comes the Fackler brigade.

[High Exposure 5,664]

I am not saying that some rounds are not better at "stopping" a threat than others or that some loading are more suitable for self defense uses than others.

 

Clearly when looking at the difference between a .22 and a 9mm this is a very real and articulable discrepancy between the two cartridges. It becomes less obvious, although just as real, when comparing a 95gr FMJ .380 ACP, .38 special 125gr +p FHSJHP, and a 147gr GDHP +p 9mm.

 

However, I do believe that "stopping power" is an over used and misunderstood term that is often taken out if context and used to justify particular ammo choices when nothing else does.

 

ETA: Like Vlad G stated, no one is stating that lever action rifles are not capable of firing some pretty stout loads.

Edited December 12, 2013 by High Exposure

[mikeyboyeee 66]

I've never shot a lever action but since i have a 22 upper with my AR and i imagine follow up shots are far better than with a lever action, i going AR all day.

 

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