Utah CCW - carrying / transporting to PA

[mipafox 438]

As you said, you're not a lawyer. As the actual lawyer said, there's no case law so it's a gray area but FOPA should apply. Also, the Revell case that you're trying to cite here has zero relevance so don't even bother.

Zero relevance? That was was my point. FOPA protection in state of origin was your point, it was mentioned by me as a preface/passing comment.

[ryan_j 0]

Zero relevance? That was was my point. FOPA protection in state of origin was your point, it was mentioned by me as a preface/passing comment.

 

Place, not state of origin. The statute says "place."

[Buns of Guns 7]

Have your NJ transport exemption ready to be clearly recited. This could be going to a PA range.

 

The convenience of having exemption is that you don't need to keep your handgun in your trunk (if your vehicle has one), making it easier to load once you cross the freedom line. 

 

 

NJ Title 2C Chapter 39 Section 6g. "...shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported..."

 

But this is ONLY with the exemption in mind.  I don't believe going to PA to carry legally qualifies as an exemption in NJ, and in order for FOPA to apply, you need to keep the handgun in the trunk.  Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.  

 

It undoubtedly draws unnecessary attention having to get out of your car to access the trunk; attention that could give you problems heading back into NJ..

 

Either way, driving back from Philly is one of the most stressful things that I do: I want to comply with NJ law (unloading and storing in trunk) but I don't want to get caught in the process! Ironically, getting NJ legal is practically the only thing that risks exposure to nearby pedestrians with cell phones ready, as I make your way back home.

[brocglock23 4]

The convenience of having exemption is that you don't need to keep your handgun in your trunk (if your vehicle has one), making it easier to load once you cross the freedom line. 

 

 

 

But this is ONLY with the exemption in mind.  I don't believe going to PA to carry legally qualifies as an exemption in NJ, and in order for FOPA to apply, you need to keep the handgun in the trunk.  Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.  

 

It undoubtedly draws unnecessary attention having to get out of your car to access the trunk; attention that could give you problems heading back into NJ..

 

Either way, driving back from Philly is one of the most stressful things that I do: I want to comply with NJ law (unloading and storing in trunk) but I don't want to get caught in the process! Ironically, getting NJ legal is practically the only thing that risks exposure to nearby pedestrians with cell phones ready, as I make your way back home.

I'll solve your problem right here. Go on amazon and get 2 nanovaults. They are like 25 bucks each. Put the gun in one. The magazine in the other. Put them out of view if you please and open at the first red light you hit. Good enough???

[bignic83 0]

I'll solve your problem right here. Go on amazon and get 2 nanovaults. They are like 25 bucks each. Put the gun in one. The magazine in the other. Put them out of view if you please and open at the first red light you hit. Good enough???

/\This is what I do./\

[NYMetsFan86 9]

I'll solve your problem right here. Go on amazon and get 2 nanovaults. They are like 25 bucks each. Put the gun in one. The magazine in the other. Put them out of view if you please and open at the first red light you hit. Good enough???

 

Thanks for the idea. I'll be doing this now when i travel. 

[Fabricator 0]

I just ordered 2 of those vaults from amazon. Good idea Thanks.

[ryan_j 0]

But this is ONLY with the exemption in mind.  I don't believe going to PA to carry legally qualifies as an exemption in NJ, and in order for FOPA to apply, you need to keep the handgun in the trunk.  Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.  

 

 

That seems correct. If you're going to a place specifically listed under the NJ exemptions, you can transport it under the manner specified in the NJ statute. If you transport it interstate from one place where it is legal to possess to another where it is legal to possess, you transport it in the manner specified in FOPA.

[Newtonian 453]

FOPA (federal) only covers you in a vehicle, based on 3rd Circuit ruling. Not walking to a vehicle, not walking from a vehicle into an airport to check your gun, etc.

 

If you are complying with NJ law, you don't have to worry about FOPA. If you think driving to PA is preempted under federal FOPA against NJ law (it is not anyway) then it does not count when walking to your car or walking into an airport. Anybody without a carry license in NJ that walks into an airport with a handgun is not protected by FOPA unless you are flying directly to a range. That much is for sure, until somebody gets the US Supreme Court to make up a new law.

Hold on. So if you live in an apartment you do not own, and are carrying your gun to your car over property you do not own, you are committing a crime in NJ? Is that what you're saying? If so, why hasn't SOMEBODY by now, in that situation, been arrested? Why haven't we heard about it?

 

Wouldn't you think that this scenario occurs at least 50,000 times per year in NJ? Whether it's going to the range, or hunting, or moving in state or out of state, or going to a competition? Not everyone lives at the Versailles Palace.

[ryan_j 0]

Hold on. So if you live in an apartment you do not own, and are carrying your gun to your car over property you do not own, you are committing a crime in NJ? Is that what you're saying? If so, why hasn't SOMEBODY by now, in that situation, been arrested? Why haven't we heard about it?

 

Wouldn't you think that this scenario occurs at least 50,000 times per year in NJ? Whether it's going to the range, or hunting, or moving in state or out of state, or going to a competition? Not everyone lives at the Versailles Palace.

 

There has been no case law on any of these scenarios, so nobody knows. No matter what anyone tells you, nobody can give you a definitive answer. Do you want to be a test case? 

[Newtonian 453]

There has been no case law on any of these scenarios, so nobody knows. No matter what anyone tells you, nobody can give you a definitive answer. Do you want to be a test case? 

As many posters like to point out, there are no bona fide lawyers in this group. So while no-one can give a definitive answer from the perspective of legal authority, you cannot automatically assume an absurdity: That NJ law permits going to the range, hunting, attending competitions, but only for individuals who own their home and park their cars on lad that they own. 

 

If it were illegal then SOMEBODY would by now have been prosecuted for this fantasy-crime. Think of how many people get busted for all sorts of things (guns, drugs, explosives, alcohol/public intoxication) while walking around (the fact that you're walking to your car is irrelevant). Given what they know about who owns what, you'd think cops would be waiting outside of gun-owners' apartments specifically to arrest them for being in violation.

 

 

And not only in NJ but Hawaii, Maryland, New York, Illinois, and EVERY OTHER STATE where a legal gun owner does not have a concealed carry permit. Approximately 8 million Americans have carry permits, vs. 33% gun ownership rate. We're talking about 100 million gun owners, and tens or hundreds of millions of incidents per year.

 

Find me one instance where someone without CC was prosecuted for carrying a handgun to their car, on their way to the range.

[mipafox 438]

There has been no case law on any of these scenarios, so nobody knows. No matter what anyone tells you, nobody can give you a definitive answer. Do you want to be a test case? 

There is case law. 3rd Circuit says FOPA only covers you in vehicles. That is the law where you live until you take it to the US Supreme Court.

 

That is a definitive answer.

 

If you are not relying on FOPA protection, but are instead relying on compliance with NJ law, then it should not concern you.

 

As many posters like to point out, there are no bona fide lawyers in this group. So while no-one can give a definitive answer from the perspective of legal authority,

The 3rd Circuit gave it to you, and they were not the slightest bit ambiguous about it. Congratulations. You have authoritative clarity, better than anything a lawyer could speculate about for you.

[ryan_j 0]

There is case law. 3rd Circuit says FOPA only covers you in vehicles. That is the law where you live until you take it to the US Supreme Court.

 

That is a definitive answer.

 

If you are not relying on FOPA protection, but are instead relying on compliance with NJ law, then it should not concern you.

You're not a lawyer. Quit giving bad legal advice.

[mipafox 438]

You're not a lawyer. Quit giving bad legal advice.

Did they not say that? If there was ambiguity please enlighten me.

 

You said there was no case law on it. This is case law on it:

 

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/USDisCtOnTransportingFirearmsThruAirports.pdf

 

If there is a point of contention or ambiguity about it please let me know. It applies to my Commonwealth as much as it does to your state and I would want to know.

[brocglock23 4]

FWIW.... For apartment dwellers. NJ has necessary deviation. While it is unclear what is considered necessary a good argument can be made that walking from your apartment to your car with a cased unloaded firearm is necessary for you to make a trip via vehicle. And then as long as you are going to an exempt place or out of state then why worry?

 

 

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[Buns of Guns 7]

FWIW.... For apartment dwellers. NJ has necessary deviation. While it is unclear what is considered necessary a good argument can be made that walking from your apartment to your car with a cased unloaded firearm is necessary for you to make a trip via vehicle. And then as long as you are going to an exempt place or out of state then why worry?

 

 

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^This was my main exemption while living in Philly.  Now that my lease is up, it's usually my shooting range.  The only time I don't specifically have an exemption is when I leave from Philly late at night (long after the range closes).  I guess the reality is sometimes I need to rely on FOPA for travel back into NJ since it's obvious I didn't leave right from the range :/

[ryan_j 0]

Did they not say that? If there was ambiguity please enlighten me.

 

You said there was no case law on it. This is case law on it:

 

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/USDisCtOnTransportingFirearmsThruAirports.pdf

 

If there is a point of contention or ambiguity about it please let me know. It applies to my Commonwealth as much as it does to your state and I would want to know.

There's no case law on it. That's what an actual lawyer said.

[mipafox 438]

There's no case law on it. That's what an actual lawyer said.

Did he say that prior to September 2013?

 

If you are relying on his counsel I strongly suggest you show him the 3rd Circuit ruling I just linked. It's settled business in NJ, PA, and DE unless somebody takes it to the US Supreme Court.

 

FOPA only covers you in a vehicle in those states. Not walking to your car, not walking into an airport to take a plane to a place where you are legal. Only while in the car, or while in the plane, etc.

 

There was a very extensive thread about this on this forum already.

 

Now, I never said I was a source of legal advice as you accuse, let alone bad legal advice. But I can tell you this. Nothing I said in this thread will get anybody into any trouble if they listen to it, even I what i said turned out to be wrong.

 

What you said? That's a different story.

[ryan_j 0]

Did he say that prior to September 2013?

 

If you are relying on his counsel I strongly suggest you show him the 3rd Circuit ruling I just linked. It's settled business in NJ, PA, and DE unless somebody takes it to the US Supreme Court.

 

FOPA only covers you in a vehicle in those states. Not walking to your car, not walking into an airport to take a plane to a place where you are legal. Only while in the car, or while in the plane, etc.

 

There was a very extensive thread about this on this forum already.

 

Now, I never said I was a source of legal advice as you accuse, let alone bad legal advice. But I can tell you this. Nothing I said in this thread will get anybody into any trouble if they listen to it, even I what i said turned out to be wrong.

 

What you said? That's a different story.

 

That case was with a nonresident who stayed overnight in NJ. It's not applicable to a resident who is leaving from a place that is legal to possess. There has been no case law for residents who leave NJ through NJ airports with firearms. Nonresidents (like you) will likely be arrested and prosecuted. There is case law for that.

 

No, you never said you were a source of legal advice but you sit on your high horse in Pennsylvania saying that FOPA doesn't apply in NJ to NJ residents. That's bull. It absolutely does apply. The actual lawyer (NOT YOU!!!) said that.

[mipafox 438]

No, you never said you were a source of legal advice but you sit on your high horse in Pennsylvania saying that FOPA doesn't apply in NJ to NJ residents.

What is this "high horse in Pennsylvania" nonsense? LOL, that's the second time I saw that today. Is there some kind of Pennsy haters group around here or something?

 

You just think you are better than everybody else because you live in PA LOL. Sounds like 2nd grade. BTW, I loved 2nd grade

[Norseman 2]

I would totally move to PA JUST SO I could get a carry permit ...there's just too many Flyers fans over there.

 

 

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[mipafox 438]

 

That case was with a nonresident who stayed overnight in NJ. It's not applicable to a resident who is leaving from a place that is legal to possess. There has been no case law for residents who leave NJ through NJ airports with firearms. Nonresidents (like you) will likely be arrested and prosecuted. There is case law for that.

 

No, you never said you were a source of legal advice but you sit on your high horse in Pennsylvania saying that FOPA doesn't apply in NJ to NJ residents. That's bull. It absolutely does apply. The actual lawyer (NOT YOU!!!) said that.

 

 

Why are you now saying the exact opposite with certainty? Are you now a lawyer (if that is the standard) that decided you were completely wrong and I was right?

 

Why should I believe you now that you are saying what a lawyer purportedly told you was wrong a few weeks ago?

 

It seems you are now telling people FOPA does not cover you outside of vehicles and you agreed with me when I posted that cops are within their rights to prosecute people for checking a handgun at an NJ airport because FOPA does not apply.

 

Can you please ask your lawyer which part I missed?

 

Can I get his number?

[Norseman 2]

Oooooh shit ...no you dit ent

 

 

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[DeerSlayer 241]

Oooooh shit ...no you dit ent

 

 

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"I'll put my ball sack on your drumset!"

 

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[Norseman 2]

"I'll put my ball sack on your drumset!"

 

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[ryan_j 0]

  

 

Why are you now saying the exact opposite with certainty? Are you now a lawyer (if that is the standard) that decided you were completely wrong and I was right?

 

Why should I believe you now that you are saying what a lawyer purportedly told you was wrong a few weeks ago?

 

It seems you are now telling people FOPA does not cover you outside of vehicles and you agreed with me when I posted that cops are within their rights to prosecute people for checking a handgun at an NJ airport because FOPA does not apply.

 

Can you please ask your lawyer which part I missed?

 

Can I get his number?

You need a hobby or something or maybe get laid? You dug this up to make a point? You're still wrong btw. Are you upset because I called you out for being wrong?

 

Drive to PA, DE or some other state with valid license to carry:

 

On your property, legal to possess. Pack unloaded firearm in locked container in car. Drive to state where it is legal to possess, with valid license. Remove firearm from vehicle, load, put in holster. Carry open or concealed. FOPA according to the 3rd circuit is obeyed because you started where it is legal to possess, firearm remained in vehicle until your destination where it was legal to possess.

 

Fly out of airport:

 

On your property legal to possess. Pack unloaded firearm in locked container in car. Drive to NJ airport. Take firearm out if car, in container headed to airport terminal. Illegal possession according to the third circuit... BUT case involved a nonresident who did not start from a legal place. So it is still a gray area until a resident becomes a test case.

 

Clear enough? Or do I have to break out the muppets?

[SJG 253]

The concurring opinion points out the problem. Under the majority, the FOPA has application where possession is legal in both the departing and arriving jurisdiction and the method of transportation is in a vehicle and the means of transport within the vehicle is per the statute. The statute does not cover transport from your vehicle into the terminal area of the airport to the declaration counter. During that phase, State law applies. Once the declaration is made, the opinion suggests that it does cover from that point, on and off the plane to your destination, and at your destination, through the terminal to your vehicle transport is again controlled by State law. If you have a valid CCW, you need to look to it, and its impact at the departing and then  arriving jurisidiction. If you do not  have a CCW and you intend to rely on a State exemption, you better be dam sure, it is clearly applicable as the exemptions are construed very narrowly and not liberally in NJ. The majority opinion appears flawed with regard to eliminating transport through the airport for declaration purposes. If you want to chance it in NJ, just be aware of the risk you are taking. You may not have a problem 99 times out of 100, but you may the 100th time and you will become a test case. Just make sure you have 20,000 for legal fees unless you want a public defender to represent you.

[Howard 538]

OK I have a question about transport.  We all know that to be covered by exemptions in NJ a gun must be in a secured container (which can be a tied shopping bag).  Correct me if I am wrong here, but would this be a violation of law if you are headed toward PA.  In other words, if your destination is PA does the gun have to be in a LOCKED container versus a secure container?

 

One other question, if you have an out of state permit that is recognized by PA (like Utah) do you have to carry the gun on your person once in the state, or can you leave it in your trunk?  What happens if you leave it in your car when you go to say a Walmart, is that allowed in PA?

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Howard,

 

Crossing the State line and popping the trunk is like getting off the bar stool at yer favorite Gin Mill and heading for the Rest Room.  Once ya "crack the SEAL", you're gonna take a leak every two hours.  Pennsy law takes over once the TRANSPORTATION  is complete, because now you POSSES the gun.  Just like a Pennsy resident bringing a gun to a Jersey Match.  So 30-round mags for an AR or AK are perfectly legal to transport THRU NJ back into Free America, using FOPA, so long as you don't "crack the SEAL" (stop) to go antiquing along Rt. 10.........

[ryan_j 0]

OK I have a question about transport.  We all know that to be covered by exemptions in NJ a gun must be in a secured container (which can be a tied shopping bag).  Correct me if I am wrong here, but would this be a violation of law if you are headed toward PA.  In other words, if your destination is PA does the gun have to be in a LOCKED container versus a secure container?

 

If your vehicle has a trunk, or other compartment separate from the driver, other than a glovebox or console, it can be in the trunk. Doesn't have to be in a locked container. If your vehicle doesn't have a trunk (eg. SUV, van, hatchback) it needs to be in a locked container.

 

 

One other question, if you have an out of state permit that is recognized by PA (like Utah) do you have to carry the gun on your person once in the state, or can you leave it in your trunk?  What happens if you leave it in your car when you go to say a Walmart, is that allowed in PA?

 

 

You can leave it in your car. That is legal (it's not illegal).