Loaded Mag

[Duppie 73]

I've said it before and this thread proves it, "NJ gun owners are their worst enemy."

 

Many of us here agree 100% to what vladtepes and others are saying, but we're too tired, way too tired, to constantly put it into words.

Exactly....how many times with how many wet behind the ears wanna be lawyers must we have this conversation? I admire Vlad's zen like patients  and perseverance after arguing this point for the umpteenth time.

[kman 56]

The fact is in NJ based on the law... It is just as reasonable to assume ALL guns must have firing pins removed prior to transport as it is to assume a loaded mag is a loaded gun....

 

There is no factual information to support either claim...

 

I never said a loaded mag is a loaded gun.  In fact I said that a loaded mag is absolutely legal.  I said you put a loaded magazine in proximity to a gun, and THAT GUN might be considered to be a LOADED GUN.

 

No point continuing to discuss something with someone who is not precise with his language.  This thread might as well be locked, I don't see how there is anything more to say.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I never said a loaded mag is a loaded gun.  In fact I said that a loaded mag is absolutely legal.  I said you put a loaded magazine in proximity to a gun, and THAT GUN might be considered to be a LOADED GUN.

 

No point continuing to discuss something with someone who is not precise with his language.  This thread might as well be locked, I don't see how there is anything more to say.

Based on what in NJ law?

Is a single bullet next to a handgun a loaded gun?

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I never said a loaded mag is a loaded gun.  In fact I said that a loaded mag is absolutely legal.  I said you put a loaded magazine in proximity to a gun, and THAT GUN might be considered to be a LOADED GUN.

 

No point continuing to discuss something with someone who is not precise with his language.  This thread might as well be locked, I don't see how there is anything more to say.

 

You're NOT WINNING your argument, so it's time to LOCK THE THREAD?  That's PRECIOUS, lol!

 

FWIW I could take every hand gun I own, de-case it, unload it, and toss it into the trunk (so they clang together and get scratched all to hell) of my car directly on top of spilled cases of ammo of every caliber known to man, and according to NJ Statutes all of them are considered UNLOADED and SECURED for transport, so how do you extrapolate otherwise?  AND, FWIW, all I need to walk into a gunshop or range with them is some brown Kraft paper and some bakery string to make tied packages in the parking lot of the gun shop or range!

[kman 56]

Based on what in NJ law?

Is a single bullet next to a handgun a loaded gun?

 

Single bullet next to a handgun mean a loaded gun?  Could be, although that would be a real stretch, I doubt it, but always the outside chance a judge finds it to be.  Without a definition as to what "loaded" means, you can't tell.  In New York it would absolutely be, what they consider to be loaded is very very broad.  I doubt that it would go that far in NJ.  What if it was a Contender single shot handgun?  Then more likely simply because no magazine is required, although still really can't tell without a definition, very unlikely it would be though.

 

So you got the range from one bullet next to a gun, to a charged 15 round magazine next to a glock, to a charged 15 round magazine in the glock with an empty chamber, to a charged 15 round magazine in the glock with a round chambered.

 

Based on the state you are in, the threshold at which the law considers the above glock example to be loaded would be different.  In some states, a gun isn't loaded unless a round is chambered.  Some states, a gun is loaded if a charged magazine is inserted and the chamber is empty.  Some states, a gun is loaded if a charged magazine is in proximity to the gun ready to be fed into it.  Some would consider that to be not loaded.

 

In New Jersey?  Big question mark.  All I am saying.  I really don't want to be arguing with you, I like your other posts, have nothing to gain from arguing with you, don't enjoy people making fun of me like I am some sort of idiot.  I just don't like it when I see people giving advice that something is no problem whatsoever, when it is really not that simple and could get you into big trouble.  That's the point of forums like this, learning something.  Even something you don't want to hear.

[kman 56]

You're NOT WINNING your argument, so it's time to LOCK THE THREAD?  That's PRECIOUS, lol!

 

FWIW I could take every hand gun I own, de-case it, unload it, and toss it into the trunk (so they clang together and get scratched all to hell) of my car directly on top of spilled cases of ammo of every caliber known to man, and according to NJ Statutes all of them are considered UNLOADED and SECURED for transport, so how do you extrapolate otherwise?  AND, FWIW, all I need to walk into a gunshop or range with them is some brown Kraft paper and some bakery string to make tied packages in the parking lot of the gun shop or range!

 

I'm not interested in winning an argument.  What's the prize?  People make fun of you?  There's no winning here.

 

All that I am concerned about, is someone on this forum reads that charged magazines are OK, relies on that information, puts his handgun in a range bag with charged magazines, drives to the range, gets pulled over, and suddenly has his life ruined by the criminal justice machine we have here in this state.  And it seems like people here are more interested in "winning arguments" than having a constructive discussion about what is legal, what isn't legal, and what might or might not be legal.

 

I set out very clearly how it could be a problem.  If you want to go ahead and do it anyway, go right ahead, but I don't think it is right to be putting other people at risk by telling them that it is absolutely positively 100% legal no problem.  They ought at least know that there is a legal risk involved.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Single bullet next to a handgun mean a loaded gun?  Could be, although that would be a real stretch, I doubt it, but always the outside chance a judge finds it to be.  Without a definition as to what "loaded" means, you can't tell.  In New York it would absolutely be, what they consider to be loaded is very very broad.  I doubt that it would go that far in NJ.  What if it was a Contender single shot handgun?  Then more likely simply because no magazine is required, although still really can't tell without a definition, very unlikely it would be though.

 

So you got the range from one bullet next to a gun, to a charged 15 round magazine next to a glock, to a charged 15 round magazine in the glock with an empty chamber, to a charged 15 round magazine in the glock with a round chambered.

 

Based on the state you are in, the threshold at which the law considers the above glock example to be loaded would be different.  In some states, a gun isn't loaded unless a round is chambered.  Some states, a gun is loaded if a charged magazine is inserted and the chamber is empty.  Some states, a gun is loaded if a charged magazine is in proximity to the gun ready to be fed into it.  Some would consider that to be not loaded.

 

In New Jersey?  Big question mark.  All I am saying.  I really don't want to be arguing with you, I like your other posts, have nothing to gain from arguing with you, don't enjoy people making fun of me like I am some sort of idiot.  I just don't like it when I see people giving advice that something is no problem whatsoever, when it is really not that simple and could get you into big trouble.  That's the point of forums like this, learning something.  Even something you don't want to hear.

 

 

In NJ the gun is loaded unless it is unloaded.. that is what the law says... unloaded means not charged with ammo.. charged with ammo means ammo in the gun... 

 

no ammo in the gun.. then the gun is unloaded...

 

in NJ a single round is NOT a stretch based on your reasoning.. you know why? because your concern is one based in fear and not fact.. since NJ does not define "unloaded" and you refuse to accept the dictionary definition.. unloaded could mean anything.. you said that yourself... so a single round is no more a stretch than a loaded mag.. because NEITHER are prohibited by the LAW... 

 

you should probably have a safe welded to the frame of your car... or maybe two.. lock up your ammo in one.. and your guns in the other.. that way you do not get in trouble based on some nonexistent law.. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

I'm not interested in winning an argument.  What's the prize?  People make fun of you?  There's no winning here.

 

All that I am concerned about, is someone on this forum reads that charged magazines are OK, relies on that information, puts his handgun in a range bag with charged magazines, drives to the range, gets pulled over, and suddenly has his life ruined by the criminal justice machine we have here in this state.  And it seems like people here are more interested in "winning arguments" than having a constructive discussion about what is legal, what isn't legal, and what might or might not be legal.

 

based on what? the laws in PA?

 

I told you what is legal.. a firearms dealer told you what is legal.. law enforcement officers will tell you the same thing.. but you refuse to hear it.. 

the entire universe can tell you it is OK.. but you won't budge because you believe it might be an issue.. that tells me you are not interested in a factual discussion.. you are instead interested in pushing false fears.. and that is what is meant by gun owners being their worst enemy.. you are so conditioned to live in fear that you star following magical secret laws that do not exist...

 

there are plenty of real gun laws in NJ for you to follow.. no need to make up extra ones.. 

[kman 56]

Until the law on what "loaded" means is clarified by a court interpretation, I will consider it something that might be a problem.  Because anything short of that is just someone's opinion.

 

You are absolutely convinced you are right, and there's no shaking you from it.  Fine by me.  You are entitled to your opinion.

 

You say cops don't think loaded magazines are a problem?  Glad to hear it.  Don't know if every cop thinks that way, but I'd be happy if that was the case.

 

Ever ask a prosecutor?  They tend to like vague laws they can argue wide interpretations of.  Their opinion on gun laws probably doesn't mesh well with yours or mine.

 

My opinion?  I think all these laws are unconstitutional and believe they should be interpreted very narrowly to the extent they aren't thrown out entirely.  But that's just my opinion and my opinion doesn't count for anything because I am not elected or appointed and I don't have a badge.

 

You say gun dealers say loaded magazines are OK?  Great - except that who cares what they say?  They also told me it would be no problem to buy hollow point ammunition from them and then go shopping the rest of the day instead of going directly home.  So their opinion on gun law is ridiculous.  I head a gun dealer tell someone in NJ that they could bring a handgun into NY if they put it in the trunk - that's serious jail time in NY!  I had a gun dealer in NJ tell me that you could go wherever you want with a handgun in the trunk.  Gun dealers are awful sources of advice.

 

Enjoy your opinion!

[vladtepes 1,060]

Until the law on what "loaded" means is clarified by a court interpretation, I will consider it something that might be a problem.  Because anything short of that is just someone's opinion.

 

You are absolutely convinced you are right, and there's no shaking you from it.  Fine by me.  You are entitled to your opinion.

 

You say cops don't think loaded magazines are a problem?  Glad to hear it.  Don't know if every cop thinks that way, but I'd be happy if that was the case.

 

Ever ask a prosecutor?  They tend to like vague laws they can argue wide interpretations of.  Their opinion on gun laws probably doesn't mesh well with yours or mine.

 

My opinion?  I think all these laws are unconstitutional and believe they should be interpreted very narrowly to the extent they aren't thrown out entirely.  But that's just my opinion and my opinion doesn't count for anything because I am not elected or appointed and I don't have a badge.

 

You say gun dealers say loaded magazines are OK?  Great - except that who cares what they say?  They also told me it would be no problem to buy hollow point ammunition from them and then go shopping the rest of the day instead of going directly home.  So their opinion on gun law is ridiculous.  I head a gun dealer tell someone in NJ that they could bring a handgun into NY if they put it in the trunk - that's serious jail time in NY!  I had a gun dealer in NJ tell me that you could go wherever you want with a handgun in the trunk.  Gun dealers are awful sources of advice.

 

Enjoy your opinion!

 

 

The gun dealer I am referring to is a member of this forum that is not an idiot.. 

 

and as we have said a thousand times.. 

 

when a word is not specifically defined by law how do you know what it means? do you not read the definition? 

 

if the law says the gun must be unloaded... and it does not state what unloaded means when leads you to believe it is anything other than what the definition means? 

you understand other states define it because to them it is relevant.. in NJ it is not defined.. how do you not understand that means that the word means what it means and nothing more? I am really past the point of arguing.. and am asking in a serious way.. why act with so much fear? 

 

you pointed to other states time and time again in this thread.. those states have provisions in the law to discuss loaded... so it is obvious that loaded means something MORE than the normal accepted definition..  no such situation in NJ... 

[Duppie 73]

I'm not interested in winning an argument.  What's the prize?  People make fun of you?  There's no winning here.

 

All that I am concerned about, is someone on this forum reads that charged magazines are OK, relies on that information, puts his handgun in a range bag with charged magazines, drives to the range, gets pulled over, and suddenly has his life ruined by the criminal justice machine we have here in this state.  And it seems like people here are more interested in "winning arguments" than having a constructive discussion about what is legal, what isn't legal, and what might or might not be legal.

 

I set out very clearly how it could be a problem.  If you want to go ahead and do it anyway, go right ahead, but I don't think it is right to be putting other people at risk by telling them that it is absolutely positively 100% legal no problem.  They ought at least know that there is a legal risk involved.

Unfortunately Sir ....The damage is already done.You are forced to support your speculation with hard facts and unfortunately ......you have none,just some silted opinions and unrelated anecdotes from other states with altogether differently worded laws

Then comes the "walk back" the pitiful attempt to save face and reputation while not giving up too much....but you already have... just by admitting you know you're being made fun of.... so carry on and transport as if the Devil is watching over your shoulder but I prefer not to not live my life in irrational fear,comfortable in the fact that I have met the letter of the law ......no more ..no less.

[johngo1 0]

WTF did I start? Seriously guys it was just a damn question that by the looks of it many people have. How the hell do I delete this thread

 

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[Norseman 2]

WTF did I start? Seriously guys it was just a damn question that by the looks of it many people have. How the hell do I delete this thread

 

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Don't sweat it. I had the same thing happen with an innocent thread I started one time too. It's a good question ...and now the answer is clear as mud. LOL

 

 

 

 

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[checko 180]

WTF did I start? Seriously guys it was just a damn question that by the looks of it many people have. How the hell do I delete this thread

 

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You can't.  Now, you must pay. 

[pjd832 146]

The safest way to transport to the range is via Star Trek style transporter...3 separate "beams" 1- you 2-firearms 3-ammo in a hermetically sealed and locked case.....lol .....people go way above and beyond the law for some feeling of comfort..to each their own...but is going through added bs going to ensure that you will not get jammed up? Absolutely not it is nj ....and not all Leo's are created equal....

 

I prefer to as vlad has outlined ..simply follow the law.....you have the same odds of getting the anti2a Leo "hell bent on bustin your ass" if you have your wife follow you with the ammo in a separate vehicle 5 miles apart from you and the firearms as you do if you have loaded mags separate from the firearms.....try not to over think the stuff...it'll drive you nuts...just don't be dumb while going to the range....speeding/driving like a toolbag in general etc..and you'll be fine...but ymmv

[kman 56]

Unfortunately Sir ....The damage is already done.You are forced to support your speculation with hard facts and unfortunately ......you have none,just some silted opinions and unrelated anecdotes from other states with altogether differently worded laws

Then comes the "walk back" the pitiful attempt to save face and reputation while not giving up too much....but you already have... just by admitting you know you're being made fun of.... so carry on and transport as if the Devil is watching over your shoulder but I prefer not to not live my life in irrational fear,comfortable in the fact that I have met the letter of the law ......no more ..no less.

 

Tough crowd here!  This NJGF forum sure ain't for the faint hearted.

[kman 56]

WTF did I start? Seriously guys it was just a damn question that by the looks of it many people have. How the hell do I delete this thread

 

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You got your answer, and basically it is up to you. You are fully informed, which is all I ever set out to do. 

 

Some people here get off on personal attacks and insults, and making things personal when we are having a discussion - even people who should know better - even people who are moderators on this forum for goodness sake (vlad) and should know how to control themselves.  Doesn't matter to me - not my forum - I don't decide who is a moderator around here. 

 

You just like anyone else are free to make your own decision.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I'm not interested in winning an argument.  What's the prize?  People make fun of you?  There's no winning here.

 

All that I am concerned about, is someone on this forum reads that charged magazines are OK, relies on that information, puts his handgun in a range bag with charged magazines, drives to the range, gets pulled over, and suddenly has his life ruined by the criminal justice machine we have here in this state.  And it seems like people here are more interested in "winning arguments" than having a constructive discussion about what is legal, what isn't legal, and what might or might not be legal.

 

I set out very clearly how it could be a problem.  If you want to go ahead and do it anyway, go right ahead, but I don't think it is right to be putting other people at risk by telling them that it is absolutely positively 100% legal no problem.  They ought at least know that there is a legal risk involved.

 

I think we all had a "constructive discussion", and at this point, since Cops, FFL's, and known "Gunnies" have popped-in and read this "discussion" (and didn't have anything else to add), I can therefore extrapolate that both breathing and transporting SECURED loaded mags are perfectly legal...  Let me put it another way:  If I told everybody here that I do 75 mph on the GSP past State Police vehicles, I would be admitting to violating a WRITTEN LAW covering the Speed Limit in the PRNJ.  So when I tell everybody here that I drove home from the Range last night with LOADED MAGS of EVIL HOLLOW POINTS, deliberately placed directly adjacent to my UNLOADED .45 that was already inside my Range Bag and then locked in my car's trunk, does that make me some kind of Risk Taker?  I think not!  I've been behind the trigger for more than 44 years, and since it is NOT written as being against-the-law, and since I don't live my life in a state of "Pussification", I sleep just fine!  

 

And I'll add this little gem:  IF I was transporting an UNLOADED semi-auto version of a Model 1919 Machine Gun (NJ legal), with a LOADED cloth belt of .30-06 BALL M-2 Military Surplus ammo thrown into my car trunk (that I bought at a PA Gun Show), I'd be perfectly legal transporting it to go get coffee in the morning at the local bagel shop (since I have a NJFID).  And I might stand in line and talk to the local Police Detective and (while my bagel is being made) INVITE him to the Range with me!

 

So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and be gentlemen about it.  I'm off to the bagel joint.....

[Duppie 73]

Tough crowd here!  This NJGF forum sure ain't for the faint hearted.

One can argue rather like real life.........

[brocglock23 4]

Am I going to go to jail when I leave my home and go to PA?i

 

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[djg0770 481]

You got your answer, and basically it is up to you. You are fully informed, which is all I ever set out to do. 

 

 

Fully informed about hypothetical what ifs, could's and other baloney.

 

If you have a fully loaded mag, next to a handgun with a trigger lock on it - what then? I mean there are 6.022*10^23 possible permutations here with NO DEFINED LITIGIOUS OUTCOME.  So let's speculate cause that always works, especially in NJ.

 

Here's what I KNOW.  I doesn't matter what you do if no one knows what you do.  It only matters if you do something potentially illegal AND someone, in a position of authority, catches you doing it, and then decides to enforce what they believe to be the law.  At that point, it then goes to the Prosecutor who then decides whether they feel there's enough evidence, decides that a law was broken, and/or they want to make a name for themselves or define that undefined part of the law about a particular issue.

 

Word to the wise - WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT GET "CAUGHT" especially with your pants down or your hand in the cookie jar. 

[Michael2013 56]

I was told more than once that ammo should never be transported in the same container with a gun (mag or no mag). Is there a written law for this? Can't find any...

[WP22 1,558]

Wow, thanks for this tread.

Next time the wife and I go to the range we'll drive separate cars.  I'll take the guns and she'll take the magazines and ammo. Furthermore, we'll depart the house two hours apart so there's no chance of us crossing paths until we are inside the range. We never know what can happen.

Should I filed strip the guns and put each little component in it's little baggy with a little lock? One can never be to safe, you know.

 

 

 

[brocglock23 4]

per the state police. thanks to Vlad for posting it. I've probably opened that post 100 times and still continue to use it for reference. Your work was not for nothing in my eyes since it has put me in the right direction multiple times.  I drive a quad cab pick up truck so I use my gun vault. It is out of sight but within reach. It is locked. Only way it will be open is if there is a warrant. I don't care if I'm right, wrong or indifferent. I will not discuss my firearm with the police for a traffic stop. If for some reason it is seen by a police officer I will tell him it is filled with personal items. People over think this. If for some reason you are stopped and they are pushing for searching your vehicle just remember........ I do not consent to searches. if it comes to that. However the likelihood that it will ever happen to the normal everyday none dickhead.... Slim to none.

 

'New Jersey State Police' said

All firearms transported into the State of New Jersey:
Shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel, shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
The firearm should not be directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console.
For additional exemptions refer to Chapter 39, namely 2C:39-6g.
All firearms transported through the State of New Jersey:
The following guidelines are provided in order to assist law enforcement officers in applying New Jersey's firearms laws to persons who are transporting firearms through the State of New Jersey.
New Jersey laws governing firearms permits, purchaser identification cards, registration and licenses do not apply to a person who is transporting the firearm through this State if that person is transporting the firearm in a manner permitted by federal law, 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.
This federal law permitting interstate transportation of a firearm applies only if all of the following requirements are met:
A. The person's possession of the firearm was lawful in the state in which the journey began;
B. The person's possession of the firearm will be lawful in the state in which the journey will end;
C. The person is transporting the firearm for lawful purpose
D. The firearm is unloaded
E. The firearm is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
F. The ammunition is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
G. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console;
H. The person is not
1. a convicted felon
2. a fugitive from justice an addict or unlawful user of drugs, or
3. an illegal alien
I The person has not
1. been adjudicated to be a mental defective
2. been committed to a mental institution
3. been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, or
4. renounced his United States Citizenship

[PK90 3,573]

Remember folks, we are dealing with FOUR different scenarios of transporting firearms and ammunition.

1. Into NJ

2. Through NJ

3. Out of NJ

4. Within NJ

All have their own rules and applications.

[brocglock23 4]

Remember folks, we are dealing with FOUR different scenarios of transporting firearms and ammunition.

1. Into NJ

2. Through NJ

3. Out of NJ

4. Within NJ

All have their own rules and applications.

true my bad....

But minus the handgun transportation, isn't it all one in the same? Unloaded and cased/locked (same compartment) or unloaded in the trunk. It was always my understand the separate is a nasty word.

[PK90 3,573]

IMO, #1, #2 and #3 are the same. Going from memory:

Both in trunk, but if in vehicle, both should be locked. #4 no need to lock, but need to be secured. Do not even type the "S" word.

[Duppie 73]

Since all my vehicles are either SUVs ,estate wagons and hatch backs, I transport my fully loaded mags,speed loaders and extra ammo in my range bag and my firearms in a hard case.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Am I going to go to jail when I leave my home and go to PA?i

 

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In PA that is technically not a legal way to transport unless you are licensed to carry

[brocglock23 4]

I'm legal

 

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