Loaded Mag

[johngo1 0]

Is a loaded Mag considered a loaded gun? In other words you are transporting a handgun to the range with the gun in the trunk and ammo bag up front. The mag is loaded but stored up front with the ammo? Had this convo with a friend and he said he was told it was considered a loaded gun. My understanding was it was not.

 

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[vladtepes 1,060]

whenever someone tells you something stupid about guns.. ask them to site the LAW.. if they can not tell you the LAW chances are they have no idea what they are talking about.. unfortunately there is a TON of misinformation floating around...

 

in NJ a firearm is defined.. and a magazine is NOT a firearm... therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to consider a loaded magazine a loaded firearm.. because only a firearm is a firearm.. 

[Duppie 73]

whenever someone tells you something stupid about guns.. ask them to site the LAW.. if they can not tell you the LAW chances are they have no idea what they are talking about.. unfortunately there is a TON of misinformation floating around...

 

in NJ a firearm is defined.. and a magazine is NOT a firearm... therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to consider a loaded magazine a loaded firearm.. because only a firearm is a firearm.. 

Vlad... perhaps you can link the now dozens of threads on this very question and the misconceptions of loaded mags.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Vlad... perhaps you can link the now dozens of threads on this very question and the misconceptions of loaded mags.

 

 

I thought about spending dozens of hours compiling all the vast NJ gun law... and detailing it in to one giant thread... so that people can have all of that info in one spot... it would take a TON of time to do that... but I think it would be cool.. I am sure any gun owner in NJ would find that worth reading even a few times to really get a grasp on the laws..

 

do you think if I made a thread with all the NJ laws detailed and some simple explanations for the important ones people would take the time to read it? and do you think there would be any value in that?

 

  

[Duppie 73]

I thought about spending dozens of hours compiling all the vast NJ gun law... and detailing it in to one giant thread... so that people can have all of that info in one spot... it would take a TON of time to do that... but I think it would be cool.. I am sure any gun owner in NJ would find that worth reading even a few times to really get a grasp on the laws..

 

do you think if I made a thread with all the NJ laws detailed and some simple explanations for the important ones people would take the time to read it? and do you think there would be any value in that?

 

  

Touche.......

[Duppie 73]

OP.

 

Loaded mags........Okay

 

Okay?

[ogfarmer 138]

I thought about spending dozens of hours compiling all the vast NJ gun law... and detailing it in to one giant thread... so that people can have all of that info in one spot... it would take a TON of time to do that... but I think it would be cool.. I am sure any gun owner in NJ would find that worth reading even a few times to really get a grasp on the laws..

 

do you think if I made a thread with all the NJ laws detailed and some simple explanations for the important ones people would take the time to read it? and do you think there would be any value in that?

 

  

just put a link to nappen book might be easier

[PK90 3,573]

You could do a short ABC list, but people will still start a new thread asking, "Is this legal in NJ?".

[djg0770 481]

just put a link to nappen book might be easier

 

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jersey-Gun-Law-Guide/dp/055712543X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391736018&sr=8-1&keywords=evan+nappen

[vladtepes 1,060]

just put a link to nappen book might be easier

 

it was sarcasm..

there is already a thread.. with the detailed law listed...   lol

[ogfarmer 138]

actually heres the new version http://www.lulu.com/shop/evan-nappen/new-jersey-gun-law/paperback/product-21264274.html

[ogfarmer 138]

it was sarcasm..

there is already a thread.. with the detailed law listed...   lol

lol, mine was sarcasm too, cause it sooooooooo huge

[mipafox 438]

whenever someone tells you something stupid about guns.. ask them to site the LAW.. if they can not tell you the LAW chances are they have no idea what they are talking about.. unfortunately there is a TON of misinformation floating around...

 

in NJ a firearm is defined.. and a magazine is NOT a firearm... therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to consider a loaded magazine a loaded firearm.. because only a firearm is a firearm.. 

I know this is a side note, but as an FYI for you in PA, a loaded mag is listed under the definition of loaded in the PA UFA. If it's in the same compartment of the same container as the gun then it is loaded.

 

I think there are other states that consider a loaded mag anywhere a loaded firearm if there is also a firearm in the vehicle. I seem to recall MD being one from my travels through (not to) the state but not going to check.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I know this is a side note, but as an FYI for you in PA, a loaded mag is listed under the definition of loaded in the PA UFA. If it's in the same compartment of the same container as the gun then it is loaded.

 

I think there are other states that consider a loaded mag anywhere a loaded firearm if there is also a firearm in the vehicle. I seem to recall MD being one from my travels through (not to) the state but not going to check.

 

 

I appreciate the heads up.. I was surprised to hear that when I first moved here.. I would have never expected that... 

 

I make sure to separate them by compartment unless it is the SBR.. I just always leave that loaded.. 

[PK90 3,573]

I appreciate the heads up.. I was surprised to hear that when I first moved here.. I would have never expected that... 

 

I make sure to separate them by compartment unless it is the SBR.. I just always leave that loaded.. 

 

What makes a SBR different?

[vladtepes 1,060]

What makes a SBR different?

 

he can explain it better than me.. but apparently it is not covered under the same laws due to not fitting the normal class of firearms based on barrel length or something like that..

 

SBR can be loaded on the front seat as I drive around...

[mipafox 438]

Anything below a certain size is covered by LTCF just like a handgun.

 

That certain size happens to coincide with SBR/SBS barrel length, I think there is some twist in there for AOW that might not be NFA.

 

But a loaded non-short rifle/shotgun is really just a summary offense. You could get 90 days in jail in theory I guess, but you would probably just get a fine. I wouldn't bother to risk it myself regardless. Maybe they take your gun or something.

[mipafox 438]

TITLE 18

 

PA CRIMES CODES

 

§6102. Definitions.

 

"Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

 

http://www.acslpa.org/html/pa_uniform_firearms_act.html

 

NOTE: The entire statute is not on that page, you have to click links to see the rest of it.

[Blake 50]

I know that this has been covered 100x and answered every time, but the fact that we have people continuing to propagate false info makes me somewhat thankful that this question keeps popping up.  

 

Example:  I have been a member here since June of 2012.  I actually joined after reading through the gun laws section bc I found it so helpful.  I am willing to bet that most people don't read through the sticky posts on that forum though.

 

In Jan 2013 I joined a gun club.  I sat in an audience of roughly 60 people and the president of the club told each and every one of us that we could not travel to the club with loaded mags bc that would be considered a loaded gun and we would be locked up if we were pulled over.  

 

I knew I had read on here and thought it was bs, but I made a thread anyway asking if it was ok to do so.  I got the same responses as above and links to the sticky post, but the thread went to several pages of comments and I am guessing hundreds of people clicked on it.  Guess what, that means there were probably several (at least) people who read and and were directed to the correct info where they might have otherwise thought they could not transport loaded mags.  

 

Is it an inconvenience, sure after being a member for a while you start to see the same stuff pop up.  I don't really mind bc every new thread about it probably shows a few people the truth where they might not have otherwise found it.

 

Sorry if this sounded like a rant.  Personally I was very thankful to find the sticky 2 years ago as it answered nearly all my questions but as I said most ppl probably don't read it.  

[Barms 98]

Just last week at shore shot for an intro to firearms NRA course my friend was told that with handguns a deviation for food was allowed. Also told that he could never take the wood dowel out of his Moss 500

 

So even instructors tell bad info.

 

To the OP: search for a thread from me called "what is loaded in NJ?"

[ryan_j 0]

NJ does not define loaded. In states that do, on one extreme you have NY that says loaded means you have ammo that fits in the firearm. On the other extreme you have Utah that says that it's only loaded if you have one in the chamber.

 

Nappen' advice is not to transport loaded mags because that could be construed to be part of the firearm. I think though that if you do get to the point where the cops are looking for guns in your car you're screwed anyway.

[Duppie 73]

NJ does not define loaded. In states that do, on one extreme you have NY that says loaded means you have ammo that fits in the firearm. On the other extreme you have Utah that says that it's only loaded if you have one in the chamber. Nappen' advice is not to transport loaded mags because that could be construed to be part of the firearm. I think though that if you do get to the point where the cops are looking for guns in your car you're screwed anyway.

Seriously?  Must we proceed down this well trodden ground once again?

I'm going to ask a question that has yet to be answered in the dozen times I've asked it on this topic and with all due respect to Mr Nappen........but can anyone cite a documented case in NJ where someone was arrested and stood in front of a judge for SOLELY having a loaded magazine transported according to NJ laws in their vehicle after a stop?

I'm a patient man but in the years I've been asking this very same question I have yet to have someone answer it in other that the standard  " well Nappen said....or I don't want to be the first....or just because it's not recorded it doesn't mean that... "

We have more than enough laws to abide by to be complying with those devised by default or irrational fear. I have a 5 dollar bill in my range bag for 3 years now I won from a veteran RO who bet that loaded mags were illegal in NJ and lost after confirmation to the contrary by a state trooper.    easiest $5.00 I've ever made.

[johngo1 0]

Love it when you ask a simple question on a forum and get a ton of sarcasm. Yes I know I could have found it on Google or on some compiled list but it was a simple question. If I were to count the times that I get asked the same question at work and acted like this I'd be out of a job.

 

Nice way to alienate someone on a topic where we should stick together.

 

Have a great day. Sorry for the "inconvenience".

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[ryan_j 0]

Seriously? Must we proceed down this well trodden ground once again?

I'm going to ask a question that has yet to be answered in the dozen times I've asked it on this topic and with all due respect to Mr Nappen........but can anyone cite a documented case in NJ where someone was arrested and stood in front of a judge for SOLELY having a loaded magazine transported according to NJ laws in their vehicle after a stop?

I'm a patient man but in the years I've been asking this very same question I have yet to have someone answer it in other that the standard " well Nappen said....or I don't want to be the first....or just because it's not recorded it doesn't mean that... "

We have more than enough laws to abide by to be complying with those devised by default or irrational fear. I have a 5 dollar bill in my range bag for 3 years now I won from a veteran RO who bet that loaded mags were illegal in NJ and lost after confirmation to the contrary by a state trooper. easiest $5.00 I've ever made.

Well, the point was that the law is vague and there's no case law. A trooper could say what he wants but until it goes in front of a judge we don't know. Remember people thought it was OK to transport hollow points between residences until Brian Aitken was convicted by a judge for illegal possession of hollow points.

 

Also, understand what Nappen said - that it COULD be construed, not that it WOULD be. Point is nobody knows because the law doesn't define what unloaded is.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

With all of this banter one must also consider the following:

 

Hand guns (some models) use magazines, but so do RIFLES!  Some rifle ammo is HOLLOW POINT!  Even those pesky .22 LR 32 grain Federal rounds are EVIL HP!  So we as a group need to STOP making the term "magazine" so interchangeable.  The guy or gal with 7.62 x 39 HP rounds can load-up his/her mags, and put said loaded mags into their tactical carbine carrying bag (next to but not IN the gun), but since the HOLLOW POINT RULE trumps the "you can drive-around anywhere 24/7/365 if you obtained your NJFID (except for a school or military installation or Government building) with an unloaded long gun rule", even though you might have a NJFID you still need to go "DIRECTLY to and from the range and house or store" because of the EVIL HOLLOW POINTS in those loaded mags.  Even if it's just a Ruger 10-.22 plinker.... or a Mark 3 Target Pistol!

 

So yeah, it's fine to transport loaded mags, but just because you might not own a hand gun, doesn't mean you're not subjected to the same scrutiny as those who are...

 

And as far as Aitken's case is concerned, let me give you my take:  Bottom line, Mommy called the Cops worried that he was despondent.  Mommy tells Cops he has guns with him.  Now we have "Probable Cause" for search.  He was driving-around for weeks or months with hand guns in his trunk (a BIG no-no), claiming he was in the process of moving, so, like Eli Wallach said (after blastin'-away while on the crapper) in the Good, the Bad and the Ugly, "IF you're going to shoot, THEN SHOOT!, Don't talk about it!   So if you're MOVING, then MOVE!  Don't be a Schmuck and drive-around for months with hand guns in your car!!!!!!

 

Dave

Old Fudd with 44 years behind the trigger!

[vladtepes 1,060]

Love it when you ask a simple question on a forum and get a ton of sarcasm. Yes I know I could have found it on Google or on some compiled list but it was a simple question. If I were to count the times that I get asked the same question at work and acted like this I'd be out of a job. Nice way to alienate someone on a topic where we should stick together. Have a great day. Sorry for the "inconvenience". Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

 

we are joking around about it because there is an extensive thread relating to the legalities of guns in NJ.. a thread that took a ton of time to make... and no one ever really reads it... that blows my mind.. when I was a gun owner in NJ I wanted to know EVERYTHING I could about gun laws.. and not what some hack at a gun shop told me... or some friend of a friend that knows it all.. I wanted to read the actual LAW so that I could be educated on what the law is and why it is that way.. it is IMO to do that if you are a gun owner in NJ... there are so many twists and turns in the law that the information in there is very important... additionally as a gun owner you can help educate those people that lack correct info.. I used to keep all that stuff on my phone when I lived in NJ.. this way when I got into a discussion with someone... a gun shop worker... guy at the range... or even LEO... I could correct misinformation they might have about the law...  I can not tell you how many times I discussed the actual contents of the AWB with LEO (that I was friends with).. most of them were not %100 sure of the criteria for banned or not banned... 

[BD104X 1]

Just last week at shore shot for an intro to firearms NRA course my friend was told that with handguns a deviation for food was allowed. Also told that he could never take the wood dowel out of his Moss 500

 

So even instructors tell bad info.

 

To the OP: search for a thread from me called "what is loaded in NJ?"

I took that course at SS and was told the same by the instructor.

[kman 56]

I don't know why people here keep saying that loaded mags are A-OK in NJ, like it is settled.  It is not.

 

Of all places, New Hampshire, a guy recently had to go all the way to the NH Supreme Court to get himself out of a conviction for precisely that - unloaded gun, loaded magazine.

 

http://www.guns.com/2013/08/15/charges-for-nh-man-carrying-loaded-gun-dropped-after-court-defines-loaded-as-a-gun-with-bullets-in-it/

 

If in New Hampshire it takes a state supreme court decision to bail you out, how do you think the outcome will be here?

 

OF COURSE it is not the charged magazine that you will be convicted for, it is the determination that the gun that you have along with the charged magazine is loaded, even if the magazine is not inserted into the gun.

 

Surprisingly, one of the people posting here who is absolutely certain that loaded magazines are OK in NJ, and that anyone who says otherwise is ignorant of the law - this guy lives in PA - a state where precisely that is against the law without a permit.

 

So if PA explicitly says that loaded magazine in the same bag as unloaded gun is loaded gun and illegal without a permit, what do you think the NJ court will think, when the court is free to interpret NJ law in any way it wants? 

 

What a cop says on this makes no difference.  There are hundreds of cops who will say hollow points are absolutely illegal all the time.  Do we risk conviction over a $5 bet resolved by a police officer's off the cuff answer on a legal question that was asked years ago?  If Evan Nappen says it's best to avoid, then it is best to avoid.

 

Now if you have the handgun in the trunk and the loaded magazine in the passenger compartment, then probably that is OK because it is real far away.  Probably.  Who knows?  What if the loaded mag is in one bag and the gun in another bag in the trunk?  What if you forgot to separate them and they are in the same bag? 

 

You don't mind a trip through the criminal justice system, right?

[vladtepes 1,060]

I don't know why people here keep saying that loaded mags are A-OK in NJ, like it is settled.  It is not.

 

Of all places, New Hampshire, a guy recently had to go all the way to the NH Supreme Court to get himself out of a conviction for precisely that - unloaded gun, loaded magazine.

 

http://www.guns.com/2013/08/15/charges-for-nh-man-carrying-loaded-gun-dropped-after-court-defines-loaded-as-a-gun-with-bullets-in-it/

 

If in New Hampshire it takes a state supreme court decision to bail you out, how do you think the outcome will be here?

 

OF COURSE it is not the charged magazine that you will be convicted for, it is the determination that the gun that you have along with the charged magazine is loaded, even if the magazine is not inserted into the gun.

 

Surprisingly, one of the people posting here who is absolutely certain that loaded magazines are OK in NJ, and that anyone who says otherwise is ignorant of the law - this guy lives in PA - a state where precisely that is against the law without a permit.

 

So if PA explicitly says that loaded magazine in the same bag as unloaded gun is loaded gun and illegal without a permit, what do you think the NJ court will think, when the court is free to interpret NJ law in any way it wants? 

 

What a cop says on this makes no difference.  There are hundreds of cops who will say hollow points are absolutely illegal all the time.  Do we risk conviction over a $5 bet resolved by a police officer's off the cuff answer on a legal question that was asked years ago?  If Evan Nappen says it's best to avoid, then it is best to avoid.

 

Now if you have the handgun in the trunk and the loaded magazine in the passenger compartment, then probably that is OK because it is real far away.  Probably.  Who knows?  What if the loaded mag is in one bag and the gun in another bag in the trunk?  What if you forgot to separate them and they are in the same bag? 

 

You don't mind a trip through the criminal justice system, right?

 

 

let me try to break it down for you.. slowly.. 

 

PA does NOT say loaded mags are illegal.. it says they must be in a separate compartment.. 

this is the situation in PA because the LAW states that it is so.. 

 

in NJ guns are DEFINED by LAW... firearms are NOT individual parts... nor are they parts of guns... they are ONLY what the law says they are.. 

therefore a loaded mag is NOT a firearm.. a loaded mag does not indicate a loaded firearm.. because the LAW does not state that it is.. 

 

the following is the LAW not my opinion of it.. 

 

 

 

g. All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b.,

subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried

unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package,

or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the

course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under

the circumstances.

 

notice it says NOTHING about how the ammo may be transported..

it does NOT say that mags have to be in a separate area (like in PA)

 

it says WEAPON.. NJ law DEFINES weapon...

 

r. "Weapon" means anything readily capable of lethal use or of inflicting serious bodily injury. The term includes, but is not limited to, all (1)firearms, even though not loaded or lacking a clip or other component to render them immediately operable; (2)components which can be readily assembled into a weapon; (3)gravity knives, switchblade knives, daggers, dirks, stilettos, or other dangerous knives, billies, blackjacks, bludgeons, metal knuckles, sandclubs, slingshots, cesti or similar leather bands studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood; and (4) stun guns; and any weapon or other device which projects, releases, or emits tear gas or any other substance intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or permanent injury through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air.

 

it states that a weapon is a FIREARM (loaded or unloaded)

so what is a firearm?

 

f. "Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or

any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

 

a gun magazine is NOT a firearm...

 

I am not making this stuff up.. I am simply reading the law...

 

 

and the LAW states the following..

 

the weapon (rifle, shotgun, pistol)

must be UNLOADED... and unloaded means whatever unloaded literally means since NJ law does not define it.. 

 

unload (ʌnˈləʊd)

vb

1. to remove a load or cargo from (a ship, lorry, etc)

2. to discharge (cargo, freight, etc)

3. (tr) to relieve of a burden or troubles

4. (tr) to give vent to (anxiety, troubles, etc)

5. (tr) to get rid of or dispose of (esp surplus goods)

6. (Firearms, Gunnery, Ordnance & Artillery) (tr) to remove the charge of ammunition from (a firearm)

 

this stuff is not confusing.. it is spelled out.. 

[kman 56]

That's all great, fantastic set of laws you set out above to establish that a loaded magazine, in and of itself, is not illegal.  Nobody ever said that it is. 

 

It is the loaded magazine in close proximity to the firearm, which can lead to a legal determination that the firearm is loaded - THAT is the problem.

 

All the law you set forth above still doesn't get around that NJ doesn't define what "loaded firearm" means, and many states have determined that "loaded firearm" includes a firearm with a loaded magazine in close proximity.  Including every state that borders NJ.

 

In NY, a firearm that has no ammunition inside it, but is in close proximity to a loaded magazine, is considered to be a loaded firearm under the law.

 

In PA, a firearm that has no ammunition inside it, but is in close proximity to a loaded magazine, such as in the same bag, is considered to be a loaded firearm under the law.

 

NJ doesn't even define what "loaded" means.  Which means that the judges can pretty much interpret it how they want, and they are going to look to other state laws as a guide.

 

Given the above, how can you say, with certainty, that in NJ a firearm that has no ammunition inside it, but is in close proximity to a loaded magazine, is not considered to be a loaded firearm?  You can't say that.  NJ's statute is wide open on this.  All adjacent states would consider it loaded.