P2P - Extra Forms

[Carcano 14]

Applied for 9 permits today, local PD required I fill out a 3 page form in addition to the State forms.

 

Here is the catch, I filled the extra form out before (about 2 years ago) when I applied for my initial FPID card so they already have the information on file but it looks like every time you apply for a P2P you must submit this 3 page form.

 

Questions include who lives in the house names, age, etc.

 

So I filled out the form, get home and the PD Capt. calls and says "Your occupation is too vague" so I call back and the Capt. asks me what I do for a living, I tell him and on my STS-033 I listed it "Electronics Technician" but apparently that isn't good enough! so he asks "Do you advertise" and "how" I told him yes online.

 

I'm a nice guy and answered the questions asked, but the city form required me to give them X amount of months to investigate me or worded very close to that.

 

My question is, can the city's ILLEGAL form be used in court if I do not complete it correctly or would it be inadmissible and can they question me over the phone legally? I thought I could refuse to provide the forms but if I do the permits will be denied!

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

At which point you appeal the denial in front of a judge. There was a precedent recently set re: illegal extra requirements. Depends on how far you want to push it. People keep caving in, it just perpetuates the abuse at the hands of your PD.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[ogfarmer 138]

yes two recent nj court decisions stated extra forms are illegal.

 

we need to stop complying with these, no wonder they walk all over us

[djg0770 481]

Oh I see - you GAVE UP your rights.  Well whose fault is that?

[jackandjill 683]

If you end up appealing and need financial donation, I will be more than happy to chip in. That offer is open for anyone on these forums. Please don't take this negative way.

[djg0770 481]

If you end up appealing and need financial donation, I will be more than happy to chip in. That offer is open for anyone on these forums. Please don't take this negative way.

 

Defendant's Counsel:  Sir, I remind you that you are under oath.  Did you know that these forms in question were extraneous or unnecessary?

Plaintiff: uhhh yeah.

Defendant's Counsel: Let the record show that the defendant willingly and knowingly waived his rights.

 

 

 

Guys - we have to stop looking at this as a simple form.  You are giving up your rights - no different than consenting to a search or refusing your right to remain silent.

 

In my experience the guy who complains about the forms and quotes the law does NOT end up on the bottom of the pile - he gets the top of the pile so we get that rotten tomato out of here before he spoils the bunch.

[Carcano 14]

Oh I see - you GAVE UP your rights.  Well whose fault is that?

 

I was told you fill out the city form or no permits for you, instead of soup nazi think P2P nazi.

 

From what I've gathered that form I filled out is WORTHLESS in court as it isn't legal to begin with, correct me if I'm wrong but since additional forms are ILLEGAL and the applicant is given no other choice but to sign them the PD is in the wrong and is violating my rights...would look bad in court.

[Carcano 14]

If you end up appealing and need financial donation, I will be more than happy to chip in. That offer is open for anyone on these forums. Please don't take this negative way.

 

If it means making a case that will stick and prevent the PD from abusing peoples rights, I might take you up on that.

 

My permits should be approved, next batch I might push the limits and take the city to court...the city would wish they had re-read the OFFICIAL MEMO NJSP sent them!

 

EDIT: And yes appealing my town refuses to comply with STATE LAW. NJSP is extremely helpful while this small town PD must have a hard on for control over it's residents.

[oneshot 45]

Defendant's Counsel:  Sir, I remind you that you are under oath.  Did you know that these forms in question were extraneous or unnecessary?

Plaintiff: uhhh yeah.

Defendant's Counsel: Let the record show that the defendant willingly and knowingly waived his rights.

 

 

 

Guys - we have to stop looking at this as a simple form.  You are giving up your rights - no different than consenting to a search or refusing your right to remain silent.

 

In my experience the guy who complains about the forms and quotes the law does NOT end up on the bottom of the pile - he gets the top of the pile so we get that rotten tomato out of here before he spoils the bunch.

But didn't the police break the law? So is it okay for the "law" to break the law? The OP didn't say the PD asked him if he would mind filling out extra forms. Was the OP told that if he didn't fill them out he would be denied? There again thats breaking the law on the PD side again.

 Bottom line is refuse to fill out any forms other than what is required by state and federal law and bring copies of the court decisions stating extra forms are illegal

 

 Would you mind telling us what PD it was ?

[jackandjill 683]

Defendant's Counsel: Sir, I remind you that you are under oath. Did you know that these forms in question were extraneous or unnecessary?

Plaintiff: uhhh yeah.

Defendant's Counsel: Let the record show that the defendant willingly and knowingly waived his rights.

 

 

 

Guys - we have to stop looking at this as a simple form. You are giving up your rights - no different than consenting to a search or refusing your right to remain silent.

 

In my experience the guy who complains about the forms and quotes the law does NOT end up on the bottom of the pile - he gets the top of the pile so we get that rotten tomato out of here before he spoils the bunch.

You are right and I won't argue :-)

[oneshot 45]

As  matter of fact I would call a lawyer and sue the PD for violating your civil rights. I would hope they would get their balls tied in a knot by the judge presiding.

[Carcano 14]

Oh I see - you GAVE UP your rights.  Well whose fault is that?

 

The difference is I have to live in a small town that has no NJSP presence, if I put them in the wrong the PD might (actually, they will) make my life a living hell. I know how corrupt my town is and how many back-door things take place that push an officers authority to the very limit (and in some cases above).

 

If I could go into one of the NJSP barracks and apply I would as they are helpful and admit only State forms are required. This is what happens people when you move to incorporated areas!

[Carcano 14]

But didn't the police break the law? So is it okay for the "law" to break the law? The OP didn't say the PD asked him if he would mind filling out extra forms. Was the OP told that if he didn't fill them out he would be denied? There again thats breaking the law on the PD side again.

 Bottom line is refuse to fill out any forms other than what is required by state and federal law and bring copies of the court decisions stating extra forms are illegal

 

 Would you mind telling us what PD it was ?

 

I was told "Here is our application, you must complete this"

 

That's word for word.

 

The local PD VIOLATED my rights and State law, refusing to fill it out results in no permits.

[oneshot 45]

He gave up his rights because he was coerced and threatened with denial if he didn't fill out the forms.

[Carcano 14]

As  matter of fact I would call a lawyer and sue the PD for violating your civil rights. I would hope they would get their balls tied in a knot by the judge presiding.

 

Suggestions on a lawyer? I was thinking of contact Mr. Nappen as he helped me secure my FPID before and didn't want a penny for it.

[oneshot 45]

With all due respect Chief i am not required by law to fill out any other form other then required by state and federal law. You should have called the NJSP .

[Carcano 14]

He gave up his rights because he was coerced and threatened with denial if he didn't fill out the forms.

 

When you tell someone they must complete paperwork and you are a police officer acting in official capacity the average person will not push the issue, in this town pushing the issue means the entire town will turn on you.

 

To sum it up, I fear the local PD but the State Police are a great help.

[Carcano 14]

With all due respect Chief i am not required by law to fill out any other form other then required by state and federal law. You should have called the NJSP .

 

Again, this is a VERY small town and I know first hand some of the dealings that take place here. Push the limits and this PD might push you...out of town.

[oneshot 45]

Call Nappen and see what he has to say. It can't hurt..

 I'm brewing here just thinking about this LE over reach BS

[Carcano 14]

Call Nappen and see what he has to say. It can't hurt..

 I'm brewing here just thinking about this LE over reach BS

 

I will tomorrow, I find it DISGUSTING the city thinks (and gets away) with being ABOVE the law.

[djg0770 481]

But didn't the police break the law? So is it okay for the "law" to break the law?

 

yes - and it's legal - completely legal for them to do so.  Don't believe me? Listen to last week's "Gun For Hire Radio".  Episode 177

[Carcano 14]

yes - and it's legal - completely legal for them to do so.  Don't believe me? Listen to last week's "Gun For Hire Radio".  Episode 177

 

It's a sign to move out of this town, I'm working over drive to move.

 

BTW is it normal for the PD to not perform background checks anymore? I had to go online and pay $20 on my credit card to complete the background check.

[Carcano 14]

Better yet, WHAT would my occupation have to due with obtaining P2P's? If I make under 100K a year am I somehow not good enough in the eyes of the PD?

[HBecwithFn7 296]

It's a sign to move out of this town, I'm working over drive to move.

 

BTW is it normal for the PD to not perform background checks anymore? I had to go online and pay $20 on my credit card to complete the background check.

 

It's still the same background check, it's just done electronically instead of by hard copy paperwork, and the results are reported back to the local PD electronically.

[kirk2022 43]

It's a sign to move out of this town, I'm working over drive to move.

 

BTW is it normal for the PD to not perform background checks anymore? I had to go online and pay $20 on my credit card to complete the background check.

Yep online was started last year. 18.00 + 2.00  to do online.     Moved the time back to less than 30 days to recieve P2Ps here in Millville

 

As asked in A post above, What town is this?

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Better yet, WHAT would my occupation have to due with obtaining P2P's? If I make under 100K a year am I somehow not good enough in the eyes of the PD?

 

This has always bothered me. But apparently, it's important to them.  After all, your occupation/employer is printed on the FID and P2P documents themselves. 

 

???

[Carcano 14]

Yep online was started last year. 18.00 + 2.00  to do online.     Moved the time back to less than 30 days to recieve P2Ps here in Millville

 

Thanks I wasn't sure if this was new or not, at least the State is working on something constructive

[Carcano 14]

This has always bothered me. But apparently, it's important to them.  After all, your occupation is printed on the FID and P2P documents themselves. 

 

???

 

It's funny, I'm trusted with LE radio equipment but that isn't good enough...I offered to submit all of my Federal licenses to them, the Capt. went blank for a while on the phone.

[GRIZ 3,369]

I'm with dig 07 70 on this. If you know the form is illegal but provide the information anyway you've waived your right to keep that info private.

[Carcano 14]

I'm with dig 07 70 on this. If you know the form is illegal but provide the information anyway you've waived your right to keep that info private.

 

Puts you in a bad spot, doesn't it? provide the information or receive no permits....challenge the Dept. and they will challenge you for as long as you live in the town.

 

EDIT: The thing is I'm the only occupant (my relative passed and left me the house) so I have no issues with stating that to the local PD, I have nothing illegal and nothing to hide but I believe forcing someone to fill out paperwork for the Dept's own gain is disgusting and leaves you wondering how honest the Dept really is...