Selling a gun before you take possession

[illy 1]

Scenario:

I have a gun at my FFL. I think I'd like to sell it.

Do I have to officially take possession (NICS and transfer) first or can I sell it and have the buyer take possession (NICS and transfer through the FFL)?

 

Obviously, the FFL would have to agree. My question is about legality.

[T Bill 649]

You can sell it to another without possession.  All depends on the FFL.  I think most would.

You can even pay him to transfer it out of there to another FFL if you sold it to someone out of state.

[PK90 3,573]

If the FFL is certain that you are not attempting to do a Straw Purchase, and you don't make a habit doing it, it is perfectly legal to do. There is no need to take possession first.

[PK90 3,573]

You can sell it to another without possession. All depends on the FFL. I think most would.

You can even pay him to transfer it out of there to another FFL if you sold it to someone out of state.

I think most will not. It looks like a Straw Purchase by you if sold to someone locally.

[Sandy 44]

I thought a straw purchase occurs if you buy a firearm for someone who can't pass the background check themselves or who does not want the gun in their name for other reasons? 

I mean , if the guy accepts the transfer from the FFL , it is his name and background check all day all over the place.

[PK90 3,573]

The end recipient need not be a prohibited person to be a Straw Purchase.

 

In this case, it looks like you bought it, found out you could not pass a NICS check, and are having someone else get it for you.

[illy 1]

The end recipient need not be a prohibited person to be a Straw Purchase.

 

In this case, it looks like you bought it, found out you could not pass a NICS check, and are having someone else get it for you.

 

This is a unique scenario. I've had two guns at OMG waiting on permits. Permits are in, but he's closing up shop in less than 30 days. Which means my options are get a multiple handgun exemption, fast. Or sell one.

 

I'd rather go the exemption route, but even with a fast turn-around it's going to be close, so I'm weighing my options.

[MidwestPX 172]

You could also have Rick/OMG consign the gun for you. Or you sell it on Gunbroker, you can have Rick/OMG ship it directly to the other FFL.

[illy 1]

You could also have Rick/OMG consign the gun for you. Or you sell it on Gunbroker, you can have Rick/OMG ship it directly to the other FFL.

 

Yeah, I'm going to talk to him on Monday and figure out what works best.

 

Rick's a great guy and I'm sure he'll do what he can to make it go smoothly. Sucks that he's closing up. 

[Malsua 1,422]

Scenario:

I have a gun at my FFL. I think I'd like to sell it.

Do I have to officially take possession (NICS and transfer) first or can I sell it and have the buyer take possession (NICS and transfer through the FFL)?

 

Obviously, the FFL would have to agree. My question is about legality.

 

If you never had possession of the firearm, there is no risk of a straw purchase.  Who actually pays for a firearm is immaterial in the eyes of the law.  The ATF only cares that the paperwork says who it is going to and in fact that's who gets the gun.    

 

The Straw purchase can arise if you did the paperwork and then sold it to someone else, even if that person can pass the nics check.  Stupid as that sounds, that's pretty much the same as the case of the cop who bought a gun for his uncle(Abramski v. United States).     He bought a Glock for his uncle just to save some money which meant the original paperwork was not accurate and lost at the supreme court.

 

In your case, you never filled out the 4473 or did a nics check and hence no inaccurate information ever went on a form.  Your issue is that you paid a dealer with intent to buy, but the purchase isn't complete until the paperwork is complete so you did not in fact buy a gun or own one.  The dealer simply has some of your money.

[Sandy 44]

The end recipient need not be a prohibited person to be a Straw Purchase.

 

In this case, it looks like you bought it, found out you could not pass a NICS check, and are having someone else get it for you.

Oh , right. I see what you mean.

[PK90 3,573]

Malsua,

I never said that the OP was purchasing for someone else. On the surface, it appears that someone else would be acquiring that firearm for him. Hence, the Straw Purchase. The OP paid for it, had it transferred in, and had committed to acquire. That has changed. It looks like he is having someone get it for him. IMO, the OP should be up front with the dealer as to his intent. It is up to the dealer at this point who gets to buy it.

[PK90 3,573]

I see that Alpo has another waiting to pick up and the dealer is closing. That changes things quite a bit. Had that been said in the original post, these posts would not be necessary.

 

[coldsolderjoint 84]

I applied for an exemption a few months ago, and the NJSP turned it around in exactly 1 week. 

[jackandjill 683]

I got myself into this situation once. Depends on the FFL. Many won't touch it because they don't want to deal with anything other than a straight transaction. I am not a lawyer, but as long as money changed hands properly and there is no doubt about person taking possession is doing so for themselves, its legal.

 

But again lot depends on FFL.

 

Got bitten once and not trying again.

[jackandjill 683]

Even if FFL allows, sell to someone you dont know (no friends or family) and never get that firearm back into your possession, to remove any doubt of straw purchase.

 

IANAL and this is not a legal advice.

[mikka1 2]

IANAL and IANA_FFLdealer, but I have a strong feeling that you should not have any issues at all.

As far as I understand the process, the actual point in time when you are taking a possession of a firearm is a moment when you sign 4473 form / your dealer runs NICS on you and you walk away with your firearm. Everything that happened before that (i.e. how that firearm ended up at your dealer's place) is not of anyone's business / interest (I guess our FFLs would correct me if I'm wrong). At least I remember paying once for a firearm online with my wife's credit card and then getting it shipped to the FFL address where I took possession of it.

I can also imagine a scenario in which I run out of permits (or my permits expire) and we use my wife's permits to take possession of a handgun I paid for and which is now at FFL.

 

I might be totally wrong and completely stupid, but I don't see anything that even remotely resembles a straw purchase here...

[bry@n 195]

Just ask Rick to transfer them to another ffl. He also may not be giving his license up right away because he may still have inventory to sell. So there is a good chance you may be able to complete the exemption.

[jackandjill 683]

IANAL and IANA_FFLdealer, but I have a strong feeling that you should not have any issues at all.

As far as I understand the process, the actual point in time when you are taking a possession of a firearm is a moment when you sign 4473 form / your dealer runs NICS on you and you walk away with your firearm. Everything that happened before that (i.e. how that firearm ended up at your dealer's place) is not of anyone's business / interest (I guess our FFLs would correct me if I'm wrong). At least I remember paying once for a firearm online with my wife's credit card and then getting it shipped to the FFL address where I took possession of it.

I can also imagine a scenario in which I run out of permits (or my permits expire) and we use my wife's permits to take possession of a handgun I paid for and which is now at FFL.

 

I might be totally wrong and completely stupid, but I don't see anything that even remotely resembles a straw purchase here...

Think about it and be smart. IANAL.