What SHTF will really look like

[1LtCAP 4,264]

Yea, i didnt mean towards you or as an insult. People dont realize fuel goes mighty fast at 1/2 gal. Per hour. Even only burning 2-3 gallons a day.

 

Im sure people think they got a 5 gal. Can and think they are good..lol

5 gallons....heh. when i thought sandy was gonna hit us the way it hit you guys up north....i had the generator tank full, 15 extra gallons in the garage, the jeeps tank full, and the dakotas tank full. they're both easy to siphon from, and i don't drive them...but i filled em just in case.

[Vlad G 345]

Also NG supply was damaged in part of Sayreville post Sandy, but only in the areas that were under water. 2 blocks away, no issues. Personally, during Sandy's 8-9 days power outage I've used 14-16 gallons of gasoline and I was providing enough power to 3 houses to run refrigerators, some lights at nite, etc. It required being smart about usage and on/off schedules and I did start getting nervous towards the end as for a while I was down to 5gal before I managed to acquire more, but storing fuel is not that hard.

 

Realistically my fuel supply is irrelevant, we were pretty close to running out of fuel for the water pumping stations and once those stop all sorts of sanitation becomes an issue.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

To extend the use of a generator, the tri-fuel kit could be powered by propane tanks that could be "acquired" pretty easily around the neighborhood. It could be like having your own Blue Rhino exchange-a-tank.

[mcm308 0]

Vlad, I was just under the assumption that it was never being rebuilt but I guess it was. That picture in the article does look like new equipment. I know it was wiped out and out of commission for quite a while. Perhaps you can confirm?

[Budasac 13]

Yes but a reg generator requires a fuel supply. And you will need quite a bit. If you cant get it,your screwed. If the NG gas supply is distrupted, your talking major destruction and like I said earlier. If thats the case, you would probably have to evac anyway. Think of the coastline in Sandy.... The only thing different between a reg gas generator and a NG unit is the carburator so service should not be an issue.. I think they are pretty common these days...

The issue with getting it serviced is finding someone to come to your house and work on it. A portable generator can simply be taken to your local lawn mower or small engine repair shop. You can also loan it out, borrow one, or rent one and simply plug it in if you have everything in place. If your NG stand by fails there's no quick fix.

 

Just my personal opinion. The only time I recommend the automatic stand by units is for people who leave the state for the winter.

 

You can also get a natural gas conversion for a portable generator and fuel it from the house with a quick disconnect just like a grill. Still gives the above mentioned options and portability in a pinch.

 

It's also much cheaper.

 

[Vlad G 345]

Vlad, I was just under the assumption that it was never being rebuilt but I guess it was. That picture in the article does look like new equipment. I know it was wiped out and out of commission for quite a while. Perhaps you can confirm?

 

As far as I know, it was definitely damaged during Sandy, partially rebuilt quickly after and fully rebuilt last year. I walk my dog around there, and there is definitely regular activity in the area.

[Kevin125 4,772]

Yes but a reg generator requires a fuel supply. And you will need quite a bit. If you cant get it,your screwed. If the NG gas supply is distrupted, your talking major destruction and like I said earlier. If thats the case, you would probably have to evac anyway. Think of the coastline in Sandy.... The only thing different between a reg gas generator and a NG unit is the carburator so service should not be an issue.. I think they are pretty common these days...

  

or it could be that they shut it off for "safety"

More than safety. Our data services provider sent a 3 MW gen set into NYC for the JFK data center. They staged at the GW bridge, then proceded in. Once in NYC authorities stopped them...not sure who...and confiscated the rig to be used at One of the midtown east hospitals. Apparently, they weren't cleared to their destination. They sent another but waited. 12 hours or so later, they powered the data center. And by the way, it wasn't just any data center. It supplied services to the port autority, NYPD and other critical city agencies. Bottom line was the hospital had no power.

 

I know about this because I was speaking to the coordinator of the effort to get the generator to the site when it was ....redirected.

 

So... As you said, govt officials can do things you might not be expecting.

[Vlad G 345]

Not for nothing, but that is the type of decisions they should be making.  They chose between a hospital and a data center in the middle of an emergency, and apparently they chose correctly.

[robot_hell 72]

This seems like the classic "needs of the individual" vs "needs of the group" argument, and that debate could go quite deep.

[Displaced Texan 11,749]

The .gov confiscating personal property for 'needs of the many vs needs of the few' is a VERY slippery slope.

[Vlad G 345]

Not really at all. We even have that in the constitution from the guys that had just fought a revolution against the crown.   I'm not a fan governments in general, but you try living without one. 

 

Look at it this way, if you knew that people in a hospital may be dying due to lack of power and you had a generator that was not earmarked for a life and death use, would you share it?  Lets assume for a moment that no one here is a monster and they would voluntarily do so. What if you didn't know, but someone else knew? That is pretty much the job of government emergency management.  Take this even a step further, maybe they could ask you and you would say sure you can borrow my generator, but what if the guy who has it is the driver who is contracted to move it and has no authority to give away your property and can't reach you because a hurricane moved through?  He can lose his job for give away your property, but really he can't lose it for being diverted by OEM. 

 

You can take the notion of all government is always evil a bit too far. We all hate paying taxes but no one wants to live without roads. 

[1LtCAP 4,264]

my question is why does a hospital not have a backup generator in the first place?

[Vlad G 345]

my question is why does a hospital not have a backup generator in the first place?

 

Well sure, but hospitals are also likely to be private, you probably don't want them to be dictated to by the government either (anymore then they already are). Most hospitals do have power backup of some sort. 

[1LtCAP 4,264]

Well sure, but hospitals are also likely to be private, you probably don't want them to be dictated to by the government either (anymore then they already are). Most hospitals do have power backup of some sort. 

NO, i don't want govt dictating to them or anyone. but....i'd think that before they spend millions on making their building pretty, that they'd consider the "what if" and take the relatively small plunge to install automatic backup generators......

[Kevin125 4,772]

my question is why does a hospital not have a backup generator in the first place?

It did. The issue was the fuel storage room flooded. Pumps shorted.

 

Poof... No power. I had heard they either didn't have it protected from water well enough or changed something recently. Here is the article.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/nyregion/bellevue-hospital-evacuates-patients-after-backup-power-fails.html?_r=0

[owadj01 0]

It did. The issue was the fuel storage room flooded. Pumps shorted.

 

Poof... No power. I had heard they either didn't have it protected from water well enough or changed something recently. Here is the article.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/nyregion/bellevue-hospital-evacuates-patients-after-backup-power-fails.html?_r=0

I was thinking that was the case, I thought some hospitals had the emergency backup generators in the basement and where flooded. Similar issue was a major contributing factor to fukushima NPP accident as well.

[Displaced Texan 11,749]

Not really at all. We even have that in the constitution from the guys that had just fought a revolution against the crown. I'm not a fan governments in general, but you try living without one.

 

Look at it this way, if you knew that people in a hospital may be dying due to lack of power and you had a generator that was not earmarked for a life and death use, would you share it? Lets assume for a moment that no one here is a monster and they would voluntarily do so. What if you didn't know, but someone else knew? That is pretty much the job of government emergency management. Take this even a step further, maybe they could ask you and you would say sure you can borrow my generator, but what if the guy who has it is the driver who is contracted to move it and has no authority to give away your property and can't reach you because a hurricane moved through? He can lose his job for give away your property, but really he can't lose it for being diverted by OEM.

 

You can take the notion of all government is always evil a bit too far. We all hate paying taxes but no one wants to live without roads.

I don't believe they can just 'take' it, not without just compensation.

 

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/takings.htm

 

I am no fan of the .gov, but I also realize they are a nessicary evil.

I strongly believe in a limited government, who lives inside of its constitutional limits.

[Vlad G 345]

Yes, I would assume some sort of compensation would be involved, unless the owner says "no, that's ok, just make sure I get it back". That however may happen later, when the emergency is over.

[mipafox 438]

NG would be tenuous in an emergency. Go to any industrial facility in NJ and you will find they have a fuel oil backup. Because "uninterruptable" NG service costs at least 3x as much. Honestly, I'm not even sure it exists for real anymore. They kill NG to industry before they get down to us. There is a hierarchy. But they have killed ours and will do so again.

 

God Bless Marcellus Shale.

[mipafox 438]

NO, i don't want govt dictating to them or anyone. but....i'd think that before they spend millions on making their building pretty, that they'd consider the "what if" and take the relatively small plunge to install automatic backup generators......

Jersey hospitals have diesel backup generators that are exempt from both Subchapter 8 air permitting requirements and also DPCC requirements and even underground storage tank requirements under NJAC 7:14b.

[Kevin125 4,772]

Yes, I would assume some sort of compensation would be involved, unless the owner says "no, that's ok, just make sure I get it back". That however may happen later, when the emergency is over.

 

I never found out what happened with compensation.  This generator rig was being leased under a contract from a Gen Leasing company or some outfit like that.  I would assume that the unit was returned in  the weeks following that seizure.  And as I think I said above, there was some question about whether the driver/company had permission to enter NYC.  It sounded like they drove in and were stopped.  Then the wheels of gov't starting cranking.

[Vlad G 345]

Well consider the following scenario ...

 

You have a hurricane and travel restrictions are in place.  I'm sure we can all understand why one might have travel restrictions in place on a island with a handful of bridges as a the only link during a massive storm event. 

 

You have a driver who breaks said restriction and the local authorities take control of the vehicle. 

 

Now imagine the news the week after if they read "NY official turn back generator where people die in hospital without power" or "NY impounds generator needed in hospital, sits in parking lot for 1 week" 

 

Screwed if you do, screwed if you don't. 

[Newtonian 453]

my question is why does a hospital not have a backup generator in the first place?

Because that would require intelligence, planning, and appropriate use of resources. That they located them in locations where they would certainly fail under circumstances where they'd be needed is equivalent to not having them at all. 

[1LtCAP 4,264]

yeaaa well generators below sea level in a place that they HAD to know would flood....'cause i think it happened before.......is pretty stupid.

[Displaced Texan 11,749]

Many of you may have read this, but if not, there is some excellent information here by a gentleman who lived through the collapse in Buneos Aries.

 

http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/987

[Displaced Texan 11,749]

sorry, double tap

[Kevin125 4,772]

Because that would require intelligence, planning, and appropriate use of resources. That they located them in locations where they would certainly fail under circumstances where they'd be needed is equivalent to not having them at all.

 

Yup. NJ Transit did something similar with some sort of depot. I'm not sure about what happened other than they relocated an important facility to a location that was going to flood without a doubt. Its what can happen when people who have no experience in these disaster recovery and availability issue make key decisions based on something other than........this facility has to work.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

Yup. NJ Transit did something similar with some sort of depot. I'm not sure about what happened other than they relocated an important facility to a location that was going to flood without a doubt. Its what can happen when people who have no experience in these disaster recovery and availability issue make key decisions based on something other than........this facility has to work.

it's what happens when you let someone with virtually no "in the field" experience make important decisions. sounds kinda familiar, doesn't it?

[CMJeepster 2,778]

it's what happens when you let someone with virtually no "in the field" experience make important decisions. sounds kinda familiar, doesn't it?

[Kevin125 4,772]

lmao.....  yeah