PA Junior firefighter shot, killed at fire station

[High Exposure 5,664]

Aw c'mon. Everyone knows that you can prevent any accident, even meteor strikes, if you take enough NRA training courses. And when tragedy strikes you can make it all better by "owning" your shit.

You are being foolish.

 

Owning your shit doesn't make anything "all better". In this instance, owning it doesn't bring this kid back. Owning it is just taking responsibility for your lack of training,your poor judgement, the momentary lapse in your attention to detail and taking your punishment like an adult - Up to and including the sleepless nights thinking about what should have been done differently. It makes the reasons why a tragedy happened clear to those who wouldn't otherwise understand. It is knowing before you touch a firearm that you need to engage your brain before handling it and do this the correct way. If you can do that, you won't have to "own" anything.

 

If you are mature enough to possess and/or carry a gun, you should also be mature enough for some serious introspection into why you carry. Have some self discussion and reflection on how well thought out your carry method is, and how to make sure something like this doesn't happen. Talk to people that are more experinced that you are and pick their brains - there isn't a gun person alive that won't talk about different ways to carry. Compare and contrast your methods with theirs - you may learn something even if it's what not to do. Review for yourself the steps you take when taking your gun out of the holster, safe,or case in anything but a true self defense emergency and understand that not following those steps is unsafe and dangerous.

 

Training teaches you what to be careful about. What to watch out for, what can happen, and teaches you methods to reduce a dangerous situation to a less dangerous situation without being unsafe. It builds confidence and reduces complacency. It keeps certain key concepts fresh in your mind.

 

Look, this isn't rocket science:

- Gun has bullets in it

- Bullets come out the pointy end

- Trigger makes gun go boom

- Don't aim pointy end at good stuff

If someone can't remember these four things the entire time they have a gun in your hand, maybe they should stick to crayons - because if you can't remember them, people can die and it will be your fucking fault. Meanwhile everyone that wants to violate the 2A will blame all of us and use it as one more knot in the rope they are trying to hang us with.

 

Although that's the very attainable goal, you don't have to be 100% all the time you are carrying a gun, but you have to be at least 25% all the time the you are touching one. For example, I carry a Glock all the time for almost 14 years now. I have pointed my gun at a lot of people. As an instructor, I have drawn, pointed, touched, and shot my gun around even more people. I have never had an ND, even with my 5.5lb striker fired pistol. There is a reason for that.

 

Newtonian, you talk about being the least experienced person here regarding actually carrying a gun, you allude to being so uncomfortable you carry Condition 3. Instead of making jokes and telling everyone why you think they are wrong because you think one brand/style of gun is more inherently likely for this to happen than another, why don't you learn something from folks that are more experienced than you are at this aspect of the shooting lifestyle? You seem a smart and detail oriented guy. I just often don't understand your mindset.

[Porthole 15]

Update on the incident, bail posted.

 

https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-safety/articles/148468018-Pa-fire-capt-who-fatally-shot-junior-firefighter-posts-bail/?NewsletterID=148117063&utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_content=TopNewsLeft2Title&utm_campaign=FR1Member&cub_id=usr_4v9RJLW07bK1PIkT

[Rob0115 1,105]

These are exactly the incidents that libs point to for gun control.

[Newtonian 453]

You are being foolish.

 

Owning your shit doesn't make anything "all better". In this instance, owning it doesn't bring this kid back. Owning it is just taking responsibility for your lack of training,your poor judgement, the momentary lapse in your attention to detail and taking your punishment like an adult - Up to and including the sleepless nights thinking about what should have been done differently. It makes the reasons why a tragedy happened clear to those who wouldn't otherwise understand. It is knowing before you touch a firearm that you need to engage your brain before handling it and do this the correct way. If you can do that, you won't have to "own" anything.

 

If you are mature enough to possess and/or carry a gun, you should also be mature enough for some serious introspection into why you carry. Have some self discussion and reflection on how well thought out your carry method is, and how to make sure something like this doesn't happen. Talk to people that are more experinced that you are and pick their brains - there isn't a gun person alive that won't talk about different ways to carry. Compare and contrast your methods with theirs - you may learn something even if it's what not to do. Review for yourself the steps you take when taking your gun out of the holster, safe,or case in anything but a true self defense emergency and understand that not following those steps is unsafe and dangerous.

 

Training teaches you what to be careful about. What to watch out for, what can happen, and teaches you methods to reduce a dangerous situation to a less dangerous situation without being unsafe. It builds confidence and reduces complacency. It keeps certain key concepts fresh in your mind.

 

Look, this isn't rocket science:

- Gun has bullets in it

- Bullets come out the pointy end

- Trigger makes gun go boom

- Don't aim pointy end at good stuff

If someone can't remember these four things the entire time they have a gun in your hand, maybe they should stick to crayons - because if you can't remember them, people can die and it will be your fucking fault. Meanwhile everyone that wants to violate the 2A will blame all of us and use it as one more knot in the rope they are trying to hang us with.

 

Although that's the very attainable goal, you don't have to be 100% all the time you are carrying a gun, but you have to be at least 25% all the time the you are touching one. For example, I carry a Glock all the time for almost 14 years now. I have pointed my gun at a lot of people. As an instructor, I have drawn, pointed, touched, and shot my gun around even more people. I have never had an ND, even with my 5.5lb striker fired pistol. There is a reason for that.

 

Newtonian, you talk about being the least experienced person here regarding actually carrying a gun, you allude to being so uncomfortable you carry Condition 3. Instead of making jokes and telling everyone why you think they are wrong because you think one brand/style of gun is more inherently likely for this to happen than another, why don't you learn something from folks that are more experienced than you are at this aspect of the shooting lifestyle? You seem a smart and detail oriented guy. I just often don't understand your mindset.

1. I have gone out of my way NOT to criticize you or anyone else for carrying any way you please. Don't know how else to express this except perhaps in a different language.

 

2. I never said I carried in condition 3. Where did you get that? And what is condition 3 for a revolver anyway, leaving the ammo in the box? My carry experience is negligible and irrelevant to this discussion.

 

3. Your suggestion that training reduces risk of ND to zero is ridiculous. There is no such thing as zero risk, and no human who has ever been born is perfectly trainable to the point they never make a mistake. Believing this nonsense is dangerous in the gun world and beyond. 

 

4. Your statement that various "conditions" are equally safe, that it's all "software," is ludicrous. The reason you carry in condition 0 is to be able to deploy the weapon easily and rapidly. If it's easier to shoot it's easier to fire accidentally. My critique of "0" was personal but, I believe, not outside the realm of common belief or practice among every-day carriers. As I understand it most people, including cops, carry in condition 1. IMO advising people that all they need to do to be safe is get training and instruction is irresponsible.

 

5. Where I really take issue with you is the nonsense about owning up, taking responsibility, etc. It goes without saying that someone who fucks up is responsible. The expression is normally used in situations that can be made right. You wreck your brother's car, break your leg doing something stupid on the ski slope, burn your garage down, you take responsibility, learn a lesson. You make it right. Get caught shoplifting you pay restitution and maybe spend a month in jail. You make it right. "Taking responsibility for your lack of training" is about no. 25 on the list of top ten concerns for someone who's just shot a 16 year old in the face.

 

When you kill someone's kid through stupidity and negligence your "ownership" of the act is meaningless. It's like when Clinton said she took responsibility for Benghazi. Nobody bothered to ask, "and what precisely does that do for us or mean for you?" It means nothing. It's coach-speak. Or in this case NRA-trainer-speak. Please don't even mention crap like personal responsibility in this incident when talking to anti-gun people. They'll laugh at you with justification.

[Zeke 5,504]

Most unintentional killings are not murder but involuntary manslaughter. The absence of the element of intent is the key distinguishing factor between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. In most states involuntary manslaughter results from an improper use of reasonable care or skill while performing a legal act, or while committing an act that is unlawful but not felonious.

Many states do not define involuntary manslaughter, or define it vaguely in common-law terms. Some jurisdictions describe the amount of Negligence necessary to constitute manslaughter with terms such as criminal negligence, gross negligence, and culpable negligence. The only certainty that can be attached to these terms is that they require more than the ordinary negligence standard in a civil case. With this approach the state does not have to prove that the defendant was aware of the risk.

Other jurisdictions apply more subjective tests, such as "reckless" or "wanton," to describe the amount of negligence needed to constitute involuntary manslaughter. In this approach the defendant must have personally appreciated a risk and then chosen to take it anyway.

There are two types of involuntary manslaughter statutes: criminally negligent manslaughter and unlawful act manslaughter. Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs when death results from a high degree of negligence or recklessness. Modern criminal codes generally require a consciousness of risk and under some codes the absence of this element makes the offense a less serious Homicide.

 

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Involuntary+Manslaughter

[Zeke 5,504]

Crickets are to be expected now

[Peter Goldwing 90]

I buy only guns that have a safety lever and carry the gun  with one in the chamber and safety on. I train   to  release the safety and then shoot. Many experts dont agree with that but that's their problem