Hypthetical question for our LEO's on the board

[ronoverdrive 0]

Earlier today i overheard a conversation my grandmother was having with the vet about making sure her dog gets her rabies shot and a hypothetical situation rolled in my mind.

 

What if a rabid animal like a raccoon or something strolls into the yard. Typically an unknown animal enters the yard the dog goes berserk. If the dog is inside its a no brainer keep the dog inside and call animal control. But if the dog is in the yard that's a different story. I don't think any amount of yelling would get the dog to back off and get inside like what happened when a skunk strolled into the yard. If she doesn't want it in her territory she'll let it be known till whatever or whoever it is leaves, not a second before.

 

Long story short, if a rabid animal enters my yard and I'm forced to have to grab my .22 to defend my dog and/or family members that may be in the yard trying to get the dog to stop would I be charged with unlawful discharge or something similar for shooting the rabid animal if it started attacking?

[Chad 3]

GREAT question...I'm curious about this as well.

[tj462nj 32]

hypthtical question, how did you beforehand it was rabid

[HODGIE 3]

1st off it would depend on your neighbors if they are anal turds or PEDA lovers expect them to call the cops. Personally a bolt action 22 with a Sub Sonic round will be pretty damn quiet and should not raise any eyebrows. This is a good question but I think if the wrong neighbors and the wrong cop shows up your taking a trip down town and getting your rifle confiscated. Better off getting a larger cal pellet gun in the end.

[tj462nj 32]

first of all, no type of hunting can be done within 450ft of a house, road, etc, secondly, you can only hunt with a license & certain permits for a .22 for certain game. Call animal control...........

[mikeyboyeee 66]

first of all, no type of hunting can be done within 450ft of a house, road, etc, secondly, you can only hunt with a license & certain permits for a .22 for certain game. Call animal control...........

 

 

Sounds more like self defense then hunting to me.

[HODGIE 3]

Take it on the manly way with your trusty entrenchment tool!

[ronoverdrive 0]

hypthtical question, how did you beforehand it was rabid

 

In animals their behavior is abnormal. Such as with a raccoon appearing during the daylight or a fox appearing almost as if its tame, but they also can be unnaturally extremely aggressive for their species due to suffering from delirium. Also later stages involve heavy tearing and drooling or foaming at the mouth.

 

first of all, no type of hunting can be done within 450ft of a house, road, etc, secondly, you can only hunt with a license & certain permits for a .22 for certain game. Call animal control...........

 

 

Sounds more like self defense then hunting to me.

 

That's the scenario. Shooting a rabid animal in self-defense.

[NJ609 22]

I'd imagine just like everything else gun related in this state you'd be SOL and probably in jail unless you got really lucky and had a reasonable LEO and no a$$hat neighbors complaining.

 

I'm very interested in seeing a real legal answer to this!

[Dewhitewolf 8]

I don't know of any precedent allowing for defense of a pet animal. However, a few things to consider regarding NJ:

 

--If you are charged with an offense after doing this, it is ultimately the police dept's discretion whether they want to pursue it. I would not bet on being let off the hook; cops these days don't seem to approve of gun ownership since we civilians are not skilled or responsible enough.

 

--Claiming self-defense, or defense of another, falls under a category of affirmatie defenses. When you claim an affirmative defense, you are not contesting the prosecution's accusation that you committed an act, you are simply trying to justify it. Therefore, the burden of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) shifts from the prosecution onto the defense.

 

--Self defense and defense of others is clearly defined by statute, not by court precedent. The jury will be instructed to determine whether your self defense claim neatly fits the self defense statute (this leaves very little room for interpretation). If it does not, then the jury will return a guilty verdict.

 

--If you are caught, my advice is to listen to Nappen: 1. remain Silent, 2. request to speak to an Attorney, 3. don't Consent to anything! Doing these will preserve your rights before trial, and weaken the prosecution's case (hopefully to be dropped or dismissed with prejudice). It can never be used against you that you invoked your rights!

[bbk 188]

This reminds me almost of the whole goose incident that we tore in to here on the forum a couple months back, given that was a bit different...

 

TJ has a point though with his comment about not being able to hunt within 450ft of certain things-- I think that would apply regardless. I know that discharge rules vary depending on the township... so, that might or might not be an issue (my town does not have a "no discharge" law, but the neighboring townships do). As for the problem in general, probably just be smart to call animal control and not deal with getting fisted by the long arm of the law... or if its really pressing, wear some shin guards and go to town on the creature with a shovel or some other melee tool.

[Urban Grunt 44]

From the Sunbeam(Salem newspaper)

 

On Monday, May 18, the fifth case of rabies so far this year was confirmed, health officials said late last week. The infected animal was a raccoon found in a resident's yard. The resident's dog was bitten by the raccoon but fortunately the dog was vaccinated.

 

The resident tried to scare the raccoon away but had to take further actions to stop the raccoon from possibly hurting his animals. The case ended in the death of the raccoon and animal control arrived to remove and test the animal.

 

It's never been a problem shooting animals that have or might have rabies in this part of the state.

[tony357 386]

A few years back i had a possum get in the yard, before i could do anything the dog killed it, that happened twice in a two week span.

 

animal control tested both and came back neg.

[Bill from NJ 0]

ronoverdrive, I hate to burst your bubble here, but....

 

1) If you discharge a gun, any gun, you will get hit hard for discharging a weapon in the city limits or what ever charge your town has on the books.

 

2) You do not know for sure if the animal has rabies, the animal must be tested to determine that fact.

 

This does not matter either way, you should leave the area and notify animal control or your local police dept. let them handle the situation.

 

3) You will get hammered for taking the law into your own hands and failing to act in a safe and lawful manner.

 

4) This is NJ, you will get your *** in a ringer either way. Need I expound on this one...

 

5) Unless you really enjoy spending large amounts of money for lawyers, and spending your time sitting in a court room, I would strongly advise you to just walk away in this type of situation.

 

***Now, if you live in the sticks some place, like in the middle of the pine barrens.....

 

I say out of sight out of mind, Who is to know what is buried in that hole in the back forty?

[coldsolderjoint 84]

I think Ron's question was about trying to save the dog. I know dogs and people are not the same.. but I think I would have a hard time seeing my dog get chewed up and just walking away.

 

But I'd probably take my chances with a shovel or something mainly because my .22's are locked up when not in use and it would take more time to go get it and the ammo, rather then grabbing some garden implement lying around.

[Bill from NJ 0]

I only made my comment after reading this......

 

"would I be charged with unlawful discharge or something similar for shooting the rabid animal if it started attacking?"

[tinyboy 1]

All this talk about rabid animals is making me hungry!

 

Diner anyone? twin cheeseburger deluxe mmmmmmmmmmm

[JohnD 0]

ronoverdrive, I hate to burst your bubble here, but....

 

1) If you discharge a gun, any gun, you will get hit hard for discharging a weapon in the city limits or what ever charge your town has on the books.

 

2) You do not know for sure if the animal has rabies, the animal must be tested to determine that fact.

 

 

i am pretty sure they have to kill the animal to test it and confirm rabies, i think they test the brain tissue. so you would just be saving them some time they should thank you for acting in the best interest of the community. Oh sh!t wait this is NJ never mind.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

All this talk about rabid animals is making me hungry!

 

Diner anyone? twin cheeseburger deluxe mmmmmmmmmmm

 

Which diner? Range then diner? LOLZ

[NJJim 37]

In Ewing Township, it is against the law to discharge a firearm without "prior permission from the chief of police or his representative. "

I learned this the hard way. I had to go to court, but the case was dismissed. It took almost four months the get my gun back.

 

As with most things municipalities write ordinances to make everything unlawful and then they can selectively enforce them.

[tinyboy 1]

All this talk about rabid animals is making me hungry!

 

Diner anyone? twin cheeseburger deluxe mmmmmmmmmmm

 

Which diner? Range then diner? LOLZ

 

F- you CSJ Im still waiting for Filipino barbeque you slacker

[Chad 3]

Are you really going to walk away from your dog being attacked by an animal to go call animal control?

 

1) animal control will NOT respond unless the animal is contained.

2) animal control usually has a minimum of a 30 min response time.

 

Many people seem to be hung up on the "how do you know it has rabies", so lets change things up a bit. My small 10lb dog is being attacked by a possum. Can I shoot the possum? I guess it still goes back to discharging a firearm within city limits. Doesn't matter what your shooting/defending or even what sickness one animal has (rabies) .

[coldsolderjoint 84]

All this talk about rabid animals is making me hungry!

 

Diner anyone? twin cheeseburger deluxe mmmmmmmmmmm

 

Which diner? Range then diner? LOLZ

 

F- you CSJ Im still waiting for Filipino barbeque you slacker

 

I'm pretty sure the deal was you were buying

[Karatenurse 11]

I read in Ameriacan Rifleman once, where someone who was being attacked by a dog, as he and his family were getting into thier car parked on thier property and he shot the dog in self defense.

 

I can only think that if there was any danger, would it be self defense. But heck say you ignored the animal and you went inside and got your dog inside too, then the animal goes into the next door yard and attacks a child playing outside, and you sensed something was wrong with the animal. Tough choice.

[Bill from NJ 0]

Hypothetical questions .......

 

Sorry, This is the last time I will post on this subject. I just need to wrap my head with duct-tape.

 

Listen closely... You can try to rationalize anything you want to as many times as you want to.

 

You can fantasize all you want about shooting something for whatever reason you wish.

 

Presumably, You are over 21, your a big boy, you can make up your own mind, right?.

 

So, when you are sitting in a county jail cell, crying like a little *****, being forced to perform sexual favors to/on/for the local animals when the lights go out...

 

I want YOU to remember these golden little words I will bestow upon you:

 

This is New Jersey, The law is not always about common sense, or what YOU think is right or wrong.

 

The law is the law, period!

 

I did not write it, I do not always agree with it, but it is what it is.

 

And YOU will pay the price for breaking it if you get caught.

 

So, go ahead and do what you want to do.... and if You want to be the boy toy for the night or until you make bail, I'd say go for it shoot away and kill the evil critters.

 

But remember, by Brushing your teeth, gargling with mouth wash, and applying preparation-H to your worn out *** , it will not remove the exciting experience of the intimate friendships you will have made while visiting the county jail.

 

Ah, yes bragging to your cell mates about what a real tough guy and hero YOU were by shooting the "(fill in the blank) that had rabies" and was maybe, possibly, could have, or even did attack your "(fill in the blank)".

 

Is it worth it? Really?

 

Now If the scenario above is something you secretly desire, or you are into rough kinky sex and like being used and passed around like a cigarette ... I say enjoy your weekend. Because you will be very popular.

 

Wake up... this is NJ the lawmakers here do not like guns, period.

 

Oh, kill a human, get a slap on the wrist for manslaughter, Kill an animal and you go to prison.

 

By Killing a raccoon or whatever in your yard will strike fear in the hearts and minds of those serving hard time in Trenton State and other places, yea man they will be afraid of you knowing what you have done.... you know being a real killer and all.

[rscalzo 3]

how did you beforehand it was rabid

 

Short of a lab test, it is impossible. Using the explanation it was rabid isn't going to work. One would be required to show that the animal posed a threat in some manner. What hazard is the raccoon causing that would require the use of a firearm? What hazards would the use of a firearm cause to the surrounding area if a bullet left the property which is quite possible? Other means available. (fire extinguishers work week)

 

Having answers to those and possibly a few others will determine how the Prosecutor deals with a firearm's discharge. It isn't a simple yes or no answer. Way too many variables. But I would be safe in saying if all you have is a raccoon walking on the property.....just go inside.

[romer12 0]

I can't amagine talk about shoot or don't shoot. how about the home invader that gets shot. Less then 400 feet, no ???

As for a jury for shooting a 'believed' rabid animal threating a household pet I don't think a jury........

I don't believe a hardship for home owner shooting a 'possible' rabid animal can be expected. Possible yes, but don't think so. If the home owner is convinced the animal is rabid i.e, unusual aggressiveness, wild eyes (what ever the hell that is) and he "believed" the animal a danger to his pet and self.. shoot the bugger. Remember, if you 'believe' you are threatened you have a RIGHT to protect yourself and household. As stated, if no gun use a hoe (not a female) and kill the little shit.........my opinion as a retired LEO

[srtsam 3]

FWIW if the rabid animal appears, your supposed to retreat to into your house and dial 911. When the animal crashes through the glass door, your supposed to retreat to the upstairs all the while on the phone with the 911, and then when the animal is breaking in the door to your door your supposed to let the animal know you have a gun and aren't afraid to use it, all the while on the phone with the 911 person, once the animal ,bloodied and frenzied by this time, is in the final "saferoom" your supposed to tell them to leave or else......again all while not the phone with 911. Finally if the poor innocent misunderstood animal still wishes to try to cause you harm you shoot it in the leg just incase it is on Meth and in the morning it was all just a big misunderstanding. All while on the phone with 911. animals are people and people are animals in this fine state.

[emachine 0]

that is pretty much dead on 100% how it must be done in NJ