A few (or more) words about goals

[kenw 293]

I was talking with Tim yesterday, and the conversation led me to thinking about what goals we should be striving for as a community.

 

Anyone who knows me knows that while I’m not against CCW, it’s not my overarching goal. Besides, there are organizations actively fighting that fight, and I applaud their efforts to return the freedoms that we all deserve.

 

As we were talking, something came to mind for me. The conversation turned to the Horse Park of NJ. Horse Park is a state subsidized, world class equestrian facility, run entirely by a combination of state funding and a foundation whose sole purpose is to raise money to support the facility. How friggin’ great would it be to have a similar facility for shooting sports. To have NJ host national shooting events? To have a place where local groups could run the type of events they’ve always wanted to, without the constraints of limited space or lack of support facilities.

 

Imagine a state subsidized shooting park, a couple of hundred acres or so, with a 1,000 yard range accommodating 50 or more shooters, a handful of shorter ranges for other disciplines, a dozen or so trap and skeet fields, camper hookups and facilities to accommodate stayovers, an officer’s/announcer’s tower, viewing stands for spectators, and anything else necessary to host a world class shooting event.

 

Sadly, I doubt such a thing is likely to happen here now, but if you’re gonna dream, dream big. It doesn’t cost any more.

[Shane45 807]

Ken, it sounds like great idea! I unfortunately share your view that anything state entangled has a grim outlook. If I understand it correctly something very similer has been tried with the state but for Dirt Bike/ATV designated areas. It never seems to make it off the ground for one reason or another

 

Can we atsrt our own state ?????

[kenw 293]

Ken, it sounds like great idea! I unfortunately share your view that anything state entangled has a grim outlook. If I understand it correctly something very similer has been tried with the state but for Dirt Bike/ATV designated areas. It never seems to make it off the ground for one reason or another

 

Can we atsrt our own state ?????

I think you can only do that in America

[Shane45 807]

[tbtrout 141]

Ken, I like the idea and dreaming big is how small dreams start and grow.

[fliks 20]

wasn't there a similar thread somewhere, about our goals as a shooting community, or maybe it was from the 2AS ...

 

anywhooo what I'd like to see:

 

#1 no Pistol Permits

 

OGAM - not so important to me as I don't see myself going on a pistol shopping spree anytime soon.

 

#2 CCW that one is important to me personally, as I feel we should be able to protect ourselves & loved ones not just in the home

 

#3 Castle Doctrine/Clearer Self Defense Laws

 

#4 no more "hi-cap" magazine ban. to me, CCW & Castle Doctrine are something I'd like to see first, but the 15 round maximum is a PITA.

 

#5 ANY OF THE ABOVE... anything at all to benefit the shooting community in NJ would be really good.

[Shane45 807]

Right church wrong pew.....

 

I interpret Ken's view as a community funnel for the shooting sports in all its various disciplines by providing a place of opportunity to do so.

[kenw 293]

Right church wrong pew.....

 

I interpret Ken's view as a community funnel for the shooting sports in all its various disciplines by providing a place of opportunity to do so.

Nicely put, Shane.

 

The goals of the groups fighting for 2A rights are very well defined. They include all of those listed above, and maybe a couple more (immunity from civil liability, etc.) but when those are attained, what then?

 

Do those groups pack up their tents?

Do the people who fought for and won the return of those rights just pat each other on the back and fade into obscurity?

 

New Jersey will be freer, but how does that benefit the health and growth of the (yeah, I'm gonna say it again) shooting community? The prejudices against shooting, even as a sport, will still exist. The animosity towards us will still be there, and the lack of a growing firearms tradition will herald the eventual end of the community.

 

But, imagine if NJ was a national shooting destination. If groups as different as ATA and USPSA were to include NJ in their national event circuits. If several times a year, tens of thousands of dollars poured into the local business coffers. If people brought their families to watch shooting professionals do their thing in a vast, well maintained park. If local groups could expand their events to encourage greater participation.

 

That would turn some heads, wouldn't it?

[fliks 20]

ahhhhhhh. now I understand. I'm slow, guys. Shane, Ken, thanks. in that case: MORE EVENTS! MORE MEETUPS!

and promotional items. at least that's a start. flyers/cards/t-shirts for NJGF & NJSHOOT just to make people aware that we exist and bring shooters together.

 

and then, Ken's idea for a shooting park - that'd be great! but it's far off... for now, we can start getting the word out...

[Shane45 807]

Heres where I do see a tie in. If we are successful at returning this state to a less afflicted one, I think the shooting sports will flourish! I have lost many I have tried to get into sports such as IPSC and IDPA or even shooting just for fun when they learn about the inordinate amount of hoops they would need to jump through. With those removed, the chains are off the tree and it can grow freely. With a significant influx comes the change in public perception. This is the true path to sustained rights in my eyes. So it is imperitive that groups like NJ2As and NJShoot, keep a close allegience

 

Shane

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

Unfortunately, New Jersey will never have a big enough audience to attract the competitions. We have a lot of people that shoot, and say they want certain things, but will never act on them. Sad, but true.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Heres where I do see a tie in. If we are successful at returning this state to a less afflicted one, I think the shooting sports will flourish! I have lost many I have tried to get into sports such as IPSC and IDPA or even shooting just for fun when they learn about the inordinate amount of hoops they would need to jump through. With those removed, the chains are off the tree and it can grow freely. With a significant influx comes the change in public perception. This is the true path to sustained rights in my eyes. So it is imperitive that groups like NJ2As and NJShoot, keep a close allegience

 

Shane

 

 

 

agree %100

 

my friends wont even bring guns from PA to shoot with me at the range.. WHY? to simply put it, they are terrified of our insanely restrictive gun laws.. Imagine living in the US (PA for example) and wanting to bring a few rifles with you for a weekend visit to your relatives house down at the "shore"... they have flash hiders.. 30 round mags.. SBR.. evil evil stuff.. lol so I am sure that the lack of draw here is in part at least due to our crazy restrictive laws, hard to have fun when you are worried that the simple possession of your legally owned firearm could cause you jail time..

[kenw 293]

Unfortunately, New Jersey will never have a big enough audience to attract the competitions. We have a lot of people that shoot, and say they want certain things, but will never act on them. Sad, but true.

It's possible that you're right, but I'll use Horse Park as an example. It took years for the event organizers to get the facility recognized as a top tier equestrian destination. Even still, the Olympic trials are held at Gladstone, but there are 2 or 3 events at HP that bring in riders from around the world. Absent those events, the park is available for everything from local schooling shows to 4H orientations. It's a rental facility, and all it takes is the rental fee to do your thing there.

[tbtrout 141]

Nicely put, Shane.

 

The goals of the groups fighting for 2A rights are very well defined. They include all of those listed above, and maybe a couple more (immunity from civil liability, etc.) but when those are attained, what then?

 

Do those groups pack up their tents?

Do the people who fought for and won the return of those rights just pat each other on the back and fade into obscurity?

 

New Jersey will be freer, but how does that benefit the health and growth of the (yeah, I'm gonna say it again) shooting community? The prejudices against shooting, even as a sport, will still exist. The animosity towards us will still be there, and the lack of a growing firearms tradition will herald the eventual end of the community.

 

But, imagine if NJ was a national shooting destination. If groups as different as ATA and USPSA were to include NJ in their national event circuits. If several times a year, tens of thousands of dollars poured into the local business coffers. If people brought their families to watch shooting professionals do their thing in a vast, well maintained park. If local groups could expand their events to encourage greater participation.

 

That would turn some heads, wouldn't it?

You hit the nail on the head. If we make ground and restore freedoms again, back patting and congratulatory talk will not be enough. There will always be someone waiting for the guard to drop. That is why your idea and site will be a great way to keep it alive. And at NJ2AS one of our goals is public educaion and training to help keep and develop new shooters. It will take time, but it can be done if we all work together. I have high hopes for the future of firearms in the state and when individuas step up and put together a site like yours Ken, or form groups like NJ2AS change will come. When we all stand side by side and form a United Front we can achieve wonderous things.

 

I have some Ideas on locations too Ken.

[xxcamelxxtosisxx 0]

agree %100

 

my friends wont even bring guns from PA to shoot with me at the range.. WHY? to simply put it, they are terrified of our insanely restrictive gun laws.. Imagine living in the US (PA for example) and wanting to bring a few rifles with you for a weekend visit to your relatives house down at the "shore"... they have flash hiders.. 30 round mags.. SBR.. evil evil stuff.. lol so I am sure that the lack of draw here is in part at least due to our crazy restrictive laws, hard to have fun when you are worried that the simple possession of your legally owned firearm could cause you jail time..

 

I can understand for im not yet in nj and to be honest i too am worried that i will catch some charge in bringing my weapons with me that end in a felony and take my rights all together....it's just not worth the risk..

 

I would like to see the constriction of the 2a loosend a bit in your state and I believe it starts at the voting polls, EVERYONE that uses this forum should know who in the state of nj is for gun rights as politicians and should vote for those people. I live in a state with much much more gun freedoms then you and i pay close attention to who is running for elections and where they stand and then i go vote. Fight for your rights.

[Joeybones 1]

I am sure people are just waiting to fly into NJ with a weapon in their luggage. Like the guy from Utah

 

Gun laws: The arrest over a weapon for which he had a permit fuels a $3M suit

 

 

By Glen Warchol

The Salt Lake Tribune

Salt Lake Tribune

 

BOUNTIFUL - When Gregg Revell packed his bags for a trip to Pennsylvania last April, he had no idea how far he'd be traveling.

 

Before the week was out, the 57-year-old suburban real estate agent and grandfather would be arrested, thrown into one of the country's most notorious jails, strip searched and inoculated against his will. The soft-spoken Utah native would be on his way to becoming a poster child for the National Rifle Association in a $3 million lawsuit. During a nearly five-day stay in a Newark, N.J., jail, he would meet a terrifying side of America that most Utahns see only on television and briefly would become a jailhouse mentor to drug dealers and violent criminals.

 

It started as a trip to pick up a BMW in Allentown, Pa., for a relaxing road trip back to Utah. "I fix them up and sell them," Revell says. "Sometimes I make a profit. It's something I do for fun."

 

Revell, who has a Utah concealed weapon permit, usually takes a handgun with him for protection on his car trips. Transporting a firearm in your luggage across country on an airline is not illegal, but involves some paperwork. Revell who has made a couple dozen such car-buying trips, knows the process. He fills out the Federal Aviation Administration paperwork, packs his .45 caliber pistol in a locked case, his hollow-point ammunition in another locked case and puts both in his checked luggage. He declares the gun to the ticketing agents. "Sometimes I get a look, but it's never been a problem," he says.

 

Unfortunately, for Revell, his Allentown trip required a change of planes in Newark, N.J.

 

His plane was late arriving in Newark Liberty Airport and he missed his connection. Five hours later, he found himself boarding an airline chartered bus for Allentown, 90 miles away. Revell also discovered his luggage had not made the connection. Northwest Airline agents apologized that his bags had been mismarked to stop in Newark. By the time he tracked the bags down, his bus had left and he was stuck overnight in New Jersey. When he returned to the airport the next morning, April Fools' Day, and rechecked his bags -- again declaring his handgun and ammunition -- he was stopped by security officers of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. "I wasn't the least bit nervous," Revell says. "I was only nervous about missing another flight."

 

Despite his explanations, Utah concealed weapon permit and his FAA document, Revell missed the flight because he was arrested and handcuffed: "I have never been arrested before. I have never felt anything degrading like that in my life."

 

"You don't have a permit to carry a gun in New Jersey," a Port Authority officer told him, according to Revell. "And you don't have a permit to carry hollow-point ammunition."

 

"I asked an officer if this had something to do with April Fool's Day," Revell remembers. "He said it most certainly did not."

 

In 1986, Congress passed the Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA) for citizens who are transporting firearms through various jurisdictions. "Law abiding citizens who happened to wander into anti-gun jurisdictions could wind up being harassed and imprisoned," says Scott Bach, a New York-based attorney and member of the NRA board of directors. "FOPA was passed to end abuses." Under the law, a citizen can transport an unloaded gun between two jurisdictions that don't prohibit it -- as long as it is locked in a hard case with the ammunition locked in a separate hard case, "regardless of what local law says," explains Bach. The law is routinely violated in "anti-gun" jurisdictions, Bach says, notably New York, Los Angeles and New Jersey. Revell soon found himself in Newark's Essex County Jail.

 

"It is the lowest, it is the worst and it has the most hardened criminals of any correctional facility in the nation," says Bach. "It is horrific." Revell, who would spend nearly four days in the jail, agrees. "The jailers asked me, 'What the heck did you do to be in here?' They felt bad for me. But there was nothing they could do." A judge set his bail at $15,000 and required the amount be paid in cash, not through the usual bail-bond arrangement. "It's tough to come up with $15,000 on a weekend," Revell says. While his family back in Utah got the money together, he spent nearly five days in jail, sometimes in holding cells crowded with 28 other prisoners. "People were passed out on the floor in their own vomit," he says. Prisoners were strip-searched in an a public room.

 

"For the only person with a white butt in a jail with 1,000 people, it was not a good situation," he says. "I could have given some people some ideas." Revell figured that for survival, "I'd better make friends as fast as I could." He listened to the hard luck stories of his cell mates. "I would give them encouragement because a lot of them weren't very happy to be there. Because I was older than everybody, I was known as 'Pop.'"

 

Everyone knew he was in on a gun charge, and some prisoners assumed it was for a violent crime. "They all talked jive. It was hard for me to understand," Revell says. Until one of them asked him, "How many people did you waste?"

 

After a heart-to-heart with the prisoner, the man asked Revell if he would get him guns. "He would give me a great price." Several prisoners befriended Revell despite the suburbanite's many faux pas, such as asking about their tattoos. "There are some tattoos you just don't ask about," he says. "But some people would stand up for me if there was a problem."

 

His jail savvy friends told him they were in a tuberculosis quarantine for a few days, but after testing would join the rest of the jail. "We can't protect you when we get in with the general population," his friends warned Revell. "That scared me." Hours before being transferred into the general prison population, a bail bonds employee finally showed up with the bail money. Ultimately, the bail was lowered, but by the time he had met the bail bond company's requirement that he pay in advance for a bounty hunter to track him back to Utah if necessary, Revell was out $20,000. He was also 10 pounds lighter and had a blister on his arm from a tuberculosis inoculation. But he was free. "I took the best shower of my life."

 

Within two months, prosecutors dismissed the charges against him. New York and New Jersey Port Authority officials did not respond to requests for an interview.

 

But the Utahn's story had come to the NRA's attention. The NRA is funding the $3 million lawsuit filed in January in federal court in New Jersey against the Port Authority. Revell and the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs are co-defendants. Though he had grown up in a hunting family and had a concealed weapon permit, Revell had never been a guns-rights activist or even a member of the NRA. "I am now," he says. "As is my wife." The $3 million damage figure was set to make sure the case gets the attention of airports across the country, says Bach, who is president of the New Jersey gun clubs association. "Unfortunately, that's the way things work," Revell says. "We want to get the laws adhered to or get new laws made if we need to do that. If I should win, a fair amount of the settlement will go to the NRA as a donation."

 

Revell never got his .45 back; Essex County never responded to his lawyers' requests.

 

But he did drive the BMW home from Allentown despite his traumatic experience.

 

"My family offered to fly me home," Revell says. "But I told them I needed a few days to clear my head. It was good to have a little thinking time."

[kenw 293]

You hit the nail on the head. If we make ground and restore freedoms again, back patting and congratulatory talk will not be enough. There will always be someone waiting for the guard to drop. That is why your idea and site will be a great way to keep it alive. And at NJ2AS one of our goals is public educaion and training to help keep and develop new shooters. It will take time, but it can be done if we all work together. I have high hopes for the future of firearms in the state and when individuas step up and put together a site like yours Ken, or form groups like NJ2AS change will come. When we all stand side by side and form a United Front we can achieve wonderous things.

 

I have some Ideas on locations too Ken.

An existing Superfund site would be nice.

 

Maybe we could get a relatively clean piece of Picatinny when the Feds finally close it down.

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

An existing Superfund site would be nice.

 

Maybe we could get a relatively clean piece of Picatinny when the Feds finally close it down.

 

 

They are pumping so much money into Picatinny. Where did you hear it was closing? I have bid so many jobs there. They are building like crazy!!

[kenw 293]

They are pumping so much money into Picatinny. Where did you hear it was closing? I have bid so many jobs there. They are building like crazy!!

it was mostly a tongue in cheek comment, but there's always talk about closing the Arsenal. A few years ago, it was on the block along with a bunch of other bases, but the rumor was that if they close it, they'd have to clean it up, and it was cheaper to keep it open for another 20 years than to shut it down and haul out several million tons of contaminated soil and stone.

 

I'm sure it will stand exactly where it is for a long time. Cheaper to keep 'er.

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

it was mostly a tongue in cheek comment, but there's always talk about closing the Arsenal. A few years ago, it was on the block along with a bunch of other bases, but the rumor was that if they close it, they'd have to clean it up, and it was cheaper to keep it open for another 20 years than to shut it down and haul out several million tons of contaminated soil and stone.

 

I'm sure it will stand exactly where it is for a long time. Cheaper to keep 'er.

 

 

indeed. Out of the 3 jobs i bid there, they all required over-excavation and import of structural fill. They always had us stock pile contaminated material on-site somewhere. I guess so they could "get rid" of it

[Maksim 1,504]

I will have to disagree on competitive shoots in NJ. We have some really nice facilities where they can be done, and NJ has some really good shooters.

 

there is plenty of interest. Keep in mind, we have over 800,000 gun owners in New Jersey, which only accounts for 10% of the population.

 

There is plenty of room to grow as more people open up their eyes to it and realize that guns are not illegal in NJ. (yes, many people think that)

[tbtrout 141]

Maks, not on the level Ken is thinking. We have ranges, but not the facilities to host hundreds of people overnight on the premises.

[Shane45 807]

Shoot a match out of state Maks, you may change your mind....

[Shane45 807]

I think this is what Ken invisions somewhat

 

http://www.mszu.de/

[kenw 293]

Look at this, but replace the equine facilities with shooting ranges, berms and trap houses.

 

Horse Park

 

Shane, I get just a little aroused every time I see that video.

[Shane45 807]

Now if thos guys were REALLY slick, they would have a lane that had indoor rain! It aint training if it aint raining

[ronhonda 86]

Unfortunately, New Jersey will never have a big enough audience to attract the competitions. We have a lot of people that shoot, and say they want certain things, but will never act on them. Sad, but true.

Speaking from a USPSA angle, NJ is close enough to attract competitors from NY, CT, PA, and other nearby states. USPSA has divided the USA into areas, and each area has it's own area match. These matches attract over 300 people participating in the match. Not including staff needed to set-up the match, run the match, and tear it down. The problem with holding an area match in NJ is the mag capacity rule. If you want to be competitive (not to be confused with competing) in the open and limited divisions, you will need to use magazines that hold more than 15 rounds. That being said, many shooters will not attend or shoot those 2 classes when in NJ or NY. Old Bridge (obcats.com) has a USPSA match every month and they are almost at an area match level. The range can handle several hundred shooters over the course of a weekend. But people out of state will be reluctant to come. I am starting to ramble so I'll end it here.

[fliks 20]

that German video is pretty cool. it would be nice to have something like that around here, but BIGGER!!! American style...

Good point Ron on the magazine restrictions....

[Shane45 807]

"There is plenty of room to grow as more people open up their eyes to it and realize that guns are not illegal in NJ. (yes, many people think that)"

 

 

They think it because its true!

[kenw 293]

Speaking from a USPSA angle, NJ is close enough to attract competitors from NY, CT, PA, and other nearby states. USPSA has divided the USA into areas, and each area has it's own area match. These matches attract over 300 people participating in the match. Not including staff needed to set-up the match, run the match, and tear it down. The problem with holding an area match in NJ is the mag capacity rule. If you want to be competitive (not to be confused with competing) in the open and limited divisions, you will need to use magazines that hold more than 15 rounds. That being said, many shooters will not attend or shoot those 2 classes when in NJ or NY. Old Bridge (obcats.com) has a USPSA match every month and they are almost at an area match level. The range can handle several hundred shooters over the course of a weekend. But people out of state will be reluctant to come. I am starting to ramble so I'll end it here.

I wonder if that would be a reasonable point for the 2A groups to start a discussion about mag limits. Politicians don't seem to care about whether it makes sense or not, or the fact that arbitrary limits are an affront to our rights, but wave a dollar bill in their faces convince them that it will draw more and better people into the state to compete, to watch the competitions, to support the events, and especially, to spend their money here, and there may be some traction to be gained.

 

Another one of those "things that make you go hmmmm".