SCAR or ACR??

[Shane45 807]

Idunno, I tend to think that when you allow as you suggest, it can create a bad name for the model. 1911's and AR's come to mind. The slew of el cheapo's make a mine field of it. To make an informed decision on a 1911 or AR can send you down a path of working on your research doctorate.

 

 

Patent expiration.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Idunno, I tend to think that when you allow as you suggest, it can create a bad name for the model. 1911's and AR's come to mind. The slew of el cheapo's make a mine field of it. To make an informed decision on a 1911 or AR can send you down a path of working on your research doctorate.

 

 

Patent expiration.

 

But with AR-15s and 1911s you have a plethora of choices...

 

High quality/High price or Low quality/Low price and everything in between. If the ACR wants to become a popular platform, even one to be considered along with the AK market, it needs a lot of builders, and lower prices.

 

Tell me: what is so substantially different between the ACR and AR-15 to justify it's almost 3x cost?

[theRU 33]

Why the ACR is more expensive:

 

Remington’s proprietary coating for the ACR that dispenses with the need for lubrication is certainly promising, but it is a feature that adds to the cost. Without it, the gun would be less expensive, but the last thing Bushmaster and Remington wanted to do was release a “beta” version of the ACR that didn’t perform like the real thing. The ACR is expensive, and certainly far more expensive than anyone expected, but it is also a one-of-a-kind rifle.

 

 

Check this site out: http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/bushmaster-acr-review/

 

Seems like a good review with answers to alot of our questions. Talks about the design diferences.

[bbk 188]

The Masada was envisioned to be the "common man's" rifle by the original designers (Magpul). I don't think they were envisioning a 2200+ price tag. I'm not an industry professional or anything of the sort-- but for the level of quality that Bushmaster is known for?... Well, seems like Bushmaster is taking advantage of the community at this point.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Why the ACR is more expensive:

 

 

 

 

Check this site out: http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/bushmaster-acr-review/

 

Seems like a good review with answers to alot of our questions. Talks about the design diferences.

 

What? Did they jerk off a unicorn for that coating??

[Shane45 807]

But with AR-15s and 1911s you have a plethora of choices...

 

This benefits who? Not the original maker.

 

High quality/High price or Low quality/Low price and everything in between. If the ACR wants to become a popular platform, even one to be considered along with the AK market, it needs a lot of builders, and lower prices.

 

Again, this does not benefit the designer or manufacturer. This is what the entire patent process is designed around.

 

Tell me: what is so substantially different between the ACR and AR-15 to justify it's almost 3x cost?

 

Why does a pill that costs 3 cents to make cost 12 dollars? Because the cost to make this pill is not the only cost. The cost to recoup engineering, design and testing are considerable. Im not sure I agree with the 3 X figure either. My box stock Colt was 1600. ACR's are pretty readily available for 2k. So we are talking 400 bucks. An add on piston kit is about 300 bucks for an AR so that puts it at a 100 dollar difference. An LMT piston ar is almost even money. A LWRC is more. A Noveske is more. A rifle is worth what people are willing to pay. The SCAR seems to be able to hold the line at about 2300, the ACR about 2k. My bet is the SCAR will be able to maintain its price point far longer than the ACR. Just my chrystal ball prediction. My bet is that they will end up in the 2k SCAR, 1600/1800 Basic/Advanced ACR range. Somethings value is directly related to what people are willing to pay for it. If no one buys, the prices will fall. That doesnt seem to be hapening.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

But with AR-15s and 1911s you have a plethora of choices...

 

This benefits who? Not the original maker.

 

High quality/High price or Low quality/Low price and everything in between. If the ACR wants to become a popular platform, even one to be considered along with the AK market, it needs a lot of builders, and lower prices.

 

Again, this does not benefit the designer or manufacturer. This is what the entire patent process is designed around.

 

Tell me: what is so substantially different between the ACR and AR-15 to justify it's almost 3x cost?

 

Why does a pill that costs 3 cents to make cost 12 dollars? Because the cost to make this pill is not the only cost. The cost to recoup engineering, design and testing are considerable. Im not sure I agree with the 3 X figure either. My box stock Colt was 1600. ACR's are pretty readily available for 2k. So we are talking 400 bucks. An add on piston kit is about 300 bucks for an AR so that puts it at a 100 dollar difference. An LMT piston ar is almost even money. A LWRC is more. A Noveske is more. A rifle is worth what people are willing to pay. The SCAR seems to be able to hold the line at about 2300, the ACR about 2k. My bet is the SCAR will be able to maintain its price point far longer than the ACR. Just my chrystal ball prediction. My bet is that they will end up in the 2k SCAR, 1600/1800 Basic/Advanced ACR range. Somethings value is directly related to what people are willing to pay for it. If no one buys, the prices will fall. That doesnt seem to be hapening.

 

It would benefit MagPul if they got royalties off each ACR built. More manufacturers usually equal lower prices, but not necessarily lower quality. Bushmaster/Remington have a monopoly, and when that happens, the only one being screwed is the customer.

 

Either way, it will be 20 years before we see a Masada built by another manufacturer.

[Shane45 807]

Aha! Yes that model of royalty I could see. But im betting the $$$$ waved in front of their face by Cerberus was significant.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Aha! Yes that model of royalty I could see. But im betting the $$$$ waved in front of their face by Cerberus was significant.

 

Very true. But if you want to be the next big thing on the firearms scene, like the AK or AR, it would be preferable to maximize availability.

 

Tis a shame though... If the Masada design were contracted out to multiple manufacturers it could have very well been the next AR, maybe even making it's case for adoption by the US Military.

 

Who do you think owns the patent btw? Magpul? Or Cerberus?

[Shane45 807]

My guess (only a guess, no inside info on this one) is Magpul since Magpul was named in the patent lawsuit filed by Robinson Armament for the ACR's bolt release.

[theRU 33]

Anybody know how much the ACR is at brick armory??

[CageFighter 236]

working a deal on a SCAR17, and now having 2nd thoughts. parts are almost nonexistant & mags come in 20rd only. i would need to get them pinned,e tc. im considering going with the enhanced ACR in 5.56 bc parts have become readily avail (magazines, barrels, stocks, foregrip). i dont ready know how much looong range shooting may do. with all things considered, would u still buy the SCAR? it still kinda hard to pass up on the 308cal rounds. post ur thoughts, i need to make a decision SOON!

[vjf915 456]

I think when making a decision like this, you should not feel pressured to "make a decision SOON!" You are talking about A LOT of money, and if your local store does not feel like giving you the time to decide, you should take your business elsewhere.

 

That being said, have you fired either of the two rifles? They are both relatively new, so parts will not be as easy to come buy. Given time, parts should be readily available.

[bbk 188]

Spare barrels are available? I've read that Bushmaster is in the process of setting up a spare/accessories program, but haven't heard of any ETA on this. Also, just curious, why the enhanced ACR? You would have to neuter the stock somehow-- why not just go with the basic version (with the fixed stock), and then buy the railed hand-guard? (Which is utilized on the Enhanced version.) I know its personal preference to include aesthetics, but I just don't see the point of having an awesome stock that can't even be utilized for its awesomeness (I feel the same way about the SCAR stock). If the thing can be adjusted in a million different angles to include cheek welds, and also be foldable... but none of it can be used since stocks have to be fixed (given we don't start another "its not like any other firearm on the list, etc")... well, I just don't see the point of paying for that type of premium. If you wanted the shortest LOP and a high cheek weld and that's it, I could understand that reasoning then (still seems a bit overpriced though)-- because a lot of us do that with our ARs (in the respect that we buy collapsible stocks and have them pinned at whichever LOP is best for us).

 

As for the SCAR, all the reasons you listed are the exact reasons why I haven't seriously pursued one. If I had disposable income for an All-Star range gun/safe queen, sure I'd get one.

 

No matter what I say, nor anyone else, you have to figure out whats best for you. I'll always go back to the question of "what purpose does it serve?" And, to continue that thought, does it justify the amount of money you would have to spend to get it, make it compliant, and then maintain it (to include ammo costs)? There's no right answer for that, just my advice for "food for thought."

 

ETA: I know that Bushmaster sells accessories-- my comment about not knowing when stuff would be available was in regards to internals, like barrels and bolts, etc.

[CageFighter 236]

I think when making a decision like this, you should not feel pressured to "make a decision SOON!" You are talking about A LOT of money, and if your local store does not feel like giving you the time to decide, you should take your business elsewhere.

 

That being said, have you fired either of the two rifles? They are both relatively new, so parts will not be as easy to come buy. Given time, parts should be readily available.

 

havent shot either, but have shot an AR10 b4. the only thing that worries me is that i can get mags for the 17. mags are readily avail for the ACR. I f**kin hate NJ gun laws.

[Maksim 1,504]

havent shot either, but have shot an AR10 b4. the only thing that worries me is that i can get mags for the 17. mags are readily avail for the ACR. I f**kin hate NJ gun laws.

 

Does the Scar 17 take AR-10 mags? I am sure Ty @ midwestpx can set you up with mags.

[vjf915 456]

I hate NJ gun laws as well.....but I would seriously consider shooting both before deciding. Brick Armory has one that they rent....and even though it is an indoor range, at least you can get a feel for the rifle. I also suggest finding someone on this forum who is willing to let you shoot their SCAR. Offer to pay for ammo, and a couple extra bucks just to do it.

 

If you cant afford to buy both of them with the change in your pocket, then you really should be putting more into figuring out which to purchase.

[CageFighter 236]

buying both is out of the question.

[vjf915 456]

I know it is out of the question. That's why I am saying that it would be wise for you to take the time to determine exactly which rifle better suits what you want. You see a rifle on here for a couple hundred bucks and you pick it up on a whim, that's fine because you are not dropping much cash. When you are talking about dropping a BARE MINIMUM of ~$2600+tax+NICS, you would be extremely foolish to not test fire both weapons, and do extensive research before purchasing.

[theRU 33]

I got the ACR and i love it!!!

[CageFighter 236]

I got the ACR and i love it!!!

 

Thats bc u can get as many mags as u want, and now some addt'l parts are avail.

[Shane45 807]

The SCAR17 takes proprietary mags. I know of some attemps at converting FAL mags that apparently didnt go so well. The parts issues are fairly clearly defined. SO the remaining issues center around cost and needs. As expressed earlier, if a safe superstar is what your after, go for it! Parts will be along for it Im sure. If the wait doesnt bother you, have at it. However, if you shoot or even better , compete with it, and your not rich, you have to consider the costs. At a match shooting mil surp 7.62 every run for a stage of about 30 rounds the 308 costs me about 18 bucks a run. In 5,56 speak its about $9. So its roughly twice as expensive. Do 5 runs (my avg) and you dropped 100 beens. Not crushing but it makes it about a $150 day. Now if you just burn up a box of 20 every now and then, the cost difference is not significant in my opinion/wallet tolerance. SInce I wanted to compete with a 308 the wait was not tollerable for me. But when the $$$ falls more in line and mag availability isnt an issue, I will likely get one because that MWS is fuggin heavy!!!!

 

Shane

[CageFighter 236]

The SCAR17 takes proprietary mags. I know of some attemps at converting FAL mags that apparently didnt go so well. The parts issues are fairly clearly defined. SO the remaining issues center around cost and needs. As expressed earlier, if a safe superstar is what your after, go for it! Parts will be along for it Im sure. If the wait doesnt bother you, have at it. However, if you shoot or even better , compete with it, and your not rich, you have to consider the costs. At a match shooting mil surp 7.62 every run for a stage of about 30 rounds the 308 costs me about 18 bucks a run. In 5,56 speak its about $9. So its roughly twice as expensive. Do 5 runs (my avg) and you dropped 100 beens. Not crushing but it makes it about a $150 day. Now if you just burn up a box of 20 every now and then, the cost difference is not significant in my opinion/wallet tolerance. SInce I wanted to compete with a 308 the wait was not tollerable for me. But when the $$$ falls more in line and mag availability isnt an issue, I will likely get one because that MWS is fuggin heavy!!!!

 

Shane

 

I doubt i will be competing with it, but it wont be a safe queen either.

[Shane45 807]

Having handled both, I prefer the feel of the SCAR by far. I have not fired an ACR so I cant compare there but I can say I very much like how the SCAR shoots.

[theRU 33]

Thats bc u can get as many mags as u want, and now some addt'l parts are avail.