ryan_j 0 Posted March 6, 2013 Yes 94% of applicants were approved...but unless you are Retired LEO or "Connected" hell will need to freeze over. So this is what I was asking in a roundabout way. Why don't people apply? Is it that we're afraid of having to check the box for the rest of our lives? There's also a contradictory argument going on here with Ms Wood's argument. Stay with me for a second. "Justifiable neeead is not an impediment to granting permits" "Justifiable neeead is well defined as an imminent threat of harm." (or something like that) "We need Justifiable neeead to protect the public safety. We can't just give out permits to everyone who applies." "94% of people who apply for permits are approved." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted March 6, 2013 In another note when you guys think we will receive a YEI-NEI decision form the courts whether we can carry or not.. This decision, probably in a few months. Then they'll likely have 60-90 days to craft a law. By Christmas probably? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnp 45 Posted March 6, 2013 Why don't people apply? Is it that we're afraid of having to check the box for the rest of our lives? Yep, that is the exact reason people choose not to apply. I think we should have a mass submission of CCW applications. If every member of NJ2AS submitted an application, and they all came back denied that would be a powerful message to show the judges. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naleman 0 Posted March 6, 2013 except that we would all be denied and not be allowed to re-apply for the CCW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnp 45 Posted March 6, 2013 except that we would all be denied and not be allowed to re-apply for the CCW Why would you not be allowed to re-apply? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naleman 0 Posted March 6, 2013 Why would you not be allowed to re-apply? Isn't one of the conditions for being denied a CCW in NJ, having been previously denied? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnp 45 Posted March 6, 2013 Isn't one of the conditions for being denied a CCW in NJ, having been previously denied? [citation needed] So you are stating something as fact, without being positive if you are correct or not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naleman 0 Posted March 6, 2013 [citation needed] So you are stating something as fact, without being positive if you are correct or not? No lets call it a fear.. or ive even been told wrong. Im a product of our NJ enviroment. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted March 6, 2013 I think we should have a mass submission of CCW applications. If every member of NJ2AS submitted an application, and they all came back denied that would be a powerful message to show the judges. I would apply Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted March 6, 2013 No lets call it a fear.. or ive even been told wrong. Im a product of our NJ enviroment. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2 For the purpose of not spreading false information please make your comment an interrogative one instead of a declarative one. On a seperate note; I have a feeling that some of the bills passed by the assembly were not there just for the sake of additional gun control. I strongly believe the progressives know that "shall issue" CCW is coming to NJ. Why else would you: Model your Firearms Purchaser Identification Card based on CCW permit structures from other states? Require firearms training required prior to issuance of a FPID Require 5 references instead of 2 (currently you need 3 that have known the applicant for at least 3 years) Sit tight Ray. It's coming soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
acuevo 0 Posted March 6, 2013 are you implying that you think our FPID will double as a carry permit? that seems a little too awesome for jersey. don't get me wrong, i still think the processes are BS but it would be a nice step. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted March 6, 2013 There is no reason why you can't apply. Even if you did check the box later that you were denied. If you re-applied after that, you'd have to supply reasoning of the denial. A denial to carry and a denial on a permit to purchase are two different animals. As mentioned before, NJ Courts get the final say. By being denied does not mean you cannot own/buy a gun. At least I've never seen it happen. except that we would all be denied and not be allowed to re-apply for the CCW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DevsAdvocate 112 Posted March 6, 2013 except that we would all be denied and not be allowed to re-apply for the CCW Which would open up a new lawsuit against the State. How can you be denied to apply to something if the original denial was not based on anything but some unsubstantiated claim that you did not have a justifiable need? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DevsAdvocate 112 Posted March 6, 2013 I would apply Me too. But I'll wait until there is an organized effort to accomplish this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted March 6, 2013 Isn't one of the conditions for being denied a CCW in NJ, having been previously denied? No. Mr Muller was granted his permit after being denied. He'll probably have to check the box for life but he can carry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted March 6, 2013 Me too. But I'll wait until there is an organized effort to accomplish this. This. Maybe we can pitch this idea to the NJ2AS or a similar organization. I would be down with it. I have a feeling it would be most effective though if the court came back and said that because 94% of permits are granted there's not a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted March 6, 2013 Me too. But I'll wait until there is an organized effort to accomplish this. I'm in Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pythagoras 2 Posted March 6, 2013 Me too. But I'll wait until there is an organized effort to accomplish this. Count me in, too. It's easier to live with checking the box for life if we know we're all in it together to make a change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njpilot 671 Posted March 6, 2013 This. Maybe we can pitch this idea to the NJ2AS or a similar organization. I would be down with it. I have a feeling it would be most effective though if the court came back and said that because 94% of permits are granted there's not a problem. That was done already to get some plaintiffs for the current case. Granted, if more were needed to show a lower percent of approved, that would be a new push. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryan_j 0 Posted March 6, 2013 The plaintiffs were specific cases, IIRC, people who fit into specific categories. This would be sheer numbers of people applying to debunk the "we approve 94% of applicants" myth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TIGL 0 Posted March 6, 2013 are you implying that you think our FPID will double as a carry permit? that seems a little too awesome for jersey. don't get me wrong, i still think the processes are BS but it would be a nice step. That would be 100 kinds of fantastic but I don't expect that to happen unless the circuit court specifically ordered it. A man can dream though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raz-0 1,259 Posted March 6, 2013 Could this lack of effort on the states part just be Christie circumventing the legislature by sending in such a weak argument? I seriously doubt it but the thought crossed my mind and made me chuckle so I figured I would share. No, there just isn't a strong argument to be made about what exists in NJ. Being armed in NJ is considered fundamentally illegal and you are granted exceptions to that legality. This is not an approach that is historically tenable for an enumerated right that has been incorporated. As for the apparent competence, that's just NJ tradition, why do you think whenever we get sued seriously they always hire outside counsel? It's because we historically employ cronies rather than competent individuals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njJoniGuy 2,133 Posted March 6, 2013 No. Mr Muller was granted his permit after being denied. He'll probably have to check the box for life but he can carry. But the better question is: Will his renewal application (2 years after issuance) be approved or will he be told that an imminent threat no longer exists, so go pound sand?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff 13 Posted March 6, 2013 But the better question is: Will his renewal application (2 years after issuance) be approved or will he be told that an imminent threat no longer exists, so go pound sand?? I asked that very question when he got it. Under current rules, you know his renewal will be denied. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wooly bugger 1 Posted March 6, 2013 This. Maybe we can pitch this idea to the NJ2AS or a similar organization. I would be down with it. I have a feeling it would be most effective though if the court came back and said that because 94% of permits are granted there's not a problem. Agree with this. I'm willing to take the significant risk involved with being denied but would like to know it has a reasonable chance of working. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wooly bugger 1 Posted March 6, 2013 For the purpose of not spreading false information please make your comment an interrogative one instead of a declarative one. On a seperate note; I have a feeling that some of the bills passed by the assembly were not there just for the sake of additional gun control. I strongly believe the progressives know that "shall issue" CCW is coming to NJ. Why else would you: Model your Firearms Purchaser Identification Card based on CCW permit structures from other states? Require firearms training required prior to issuance of a FPID Require 5 references instead of 2 (currently you need 3 that have known the applicant for at least 3 years) Sit tight Ray. It's coming soon. As much as I'd like to believe this. I doubt the morons who crafted this legislation did it to smooth the way to a flood of CCWs. I suspect the state will drag its feet on this one and then fight it all the way to SCOTUS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnp 45 Posted March 6, 2013 Agree with this. I'm willing to take the significant risk involved with being denied but would like to know it has a reasonable chance of working. Please explain the significant risk involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wooly bugger 1 Posted March 6, 2013 Please explain the significant risk involved. Not a well-defined risk and may be no risk at all, but at least a concern of prejudicing a future application should I ever find refuge in a free state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnp 45 Posted March 6, 2013 Not a well-defined risk and may be no risk at all, but at least a concern of prejudicing a future application should I ever find refuge in a free state. Ok. So your fear is that if you ever leave NJ and apply for a ccw in another state there will be some box that asks if you've ever been denied a permit to carry. If you read through this thread at least 20 states were researched and it doesn't ask on their ccw application if you were ever denied a permit to carry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PDM 91 Posted March 6, 2013 I'd apply if there it is done as part of a coordinated effort. Don't really see what there is to lose other than some aggravation. And when the Chief of Police laughs in my face, I'll politely ask him why one of our town council members was given a CCW (not a retired LEO or an armored car guard). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites