SAF v NJ (MULLER et al v. MAENZA et al)

[ryan_j 0]

Yes 94% of applicants were approved...but unless you are Retired LEO or "Connected" hell will need to freeze over.

 

So this is what I was asking in a roundabout way.

 

Why don't people apply? Is it that we're afraid of having to check the box for the rest of our lives?

 

There's also a contradictory argument going on here with Ms Wood's argument. Stay with me for a second.

 

"Justifiable neeead is not an impediment to granting permits"

 

"Justifiable neeead is well defined as an imminent threat of harm." (or something like that)

 

"We need Justifiable neeead to protect the public safety. We can't just give out permits to everyone who applies."

 

"94% of people who apply for permits are approved."

[ryan_j 0]

In another note when you guys think we will receive a YEI-NEI decision form the courts whether we can carry or not..

 

This decision, probably in a few months. Then they'll likely have 60-90 days to craft a law.

 

By Christmas probably?

[johnp 45]

Why don't people apply? Is it that we're afraid of having to check the box for the rest of our lives?

 

Yep, that is the exact reason people choose not to apply.

 

I think we should have a mass submission of CCW applications.

 

If every member of NJ2AS submitted an application, and they all came back denied that would be a powerful message to show the judges.

[Naleman 0]

except that we would all be denied and not be allowed to re-apply for the CCW

[johnp 45]

except that we would all be denied and not be allowed to re-apply for the CCW

 

Why would you not be allowed to re-apply?

[Naleman 0]

Why would you not be allowed to re-apply?

 

Isn't one of the conditions for being denied a CCW in NJ, having been previously denied?

[johnp 45]

Isn't one of the conditions for being denied a CCW in NJ, having been previously denied?

[citation needed]

 

So you are stating something as fact, without being positive if you are correct or not?

[Naleman 0]

[citation needed]

 

So you are stating something as fact, without being positive if you are correct or not?

 

No lets call it a fear.. or ive even been told wrong. Im a product of our NJ enviroment.

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I think we should have a mass submission of CCW applications.

 

If every member of NJ2AS submitted an application, and they all came back denied that would be a powerful message to show the judges.

 

I would apply

[ChrisJM981 924]

 

 

No lets call it a fear.. or ive even been told wrong. Im a product of our NJ enviroment.

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

For the purpose of not spreading false information please make your comment an interrogative one instead of a declarative one.

 

On a seperate note; I have a feeling that some of the bills passed by the assembly were not there just for the sake of additional gun control. I strongly believe the progressives know that "shall issue" CCW is coming to NJ. Why else would you:

 

Model your Firearms Purchaser Identification Card based on CCW permit structures from other states?

 

Require firearms training required prior to issuance of a FPID

 

Require 5 references instead of 2 (currently you need 3 that have known the applicant for at least 3 years)

 

 

Sit tight Ray. It's coming soon.

[acuevo 0]

are you implying that you think our FPID will double as a carry permit? that seems a little too awesome for jersey. don't get me wrong, i still think the processes are BS but it would be a nice step.

[bhunted 887]

There is no reason why you can't apply. Even if you did check the box later that you were denied. If you re-applied after that, you'd have to supply reasoning of the denial. A denial to carry and a denial on a permit to purchase are two different animals. As mentioned before, NJ Courts get the final say. By being denied does not mean you cannot own/buy a gun. At least I've never seen it happen.

 

except that we would all be denied and not be allowed to re-apply for the CCW

[DevsAdvocate 112]

except that we would all be denied and not be allowed to re-apply for the CCW

 

Which would open up a new lawsuit against the State. How can you be denied to apply to something if the original denial was not based on anything but some unsubstantiated claim that you did not have a justifiable need?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I would apply

 

Me too. But I'll wait until there is an organized effort to accomplish this.

[ryan_j 0]

Isn't one of the conditions for being denied a CCW in NJ, having been previously denied?

 

No. Mr Muller was granted his permit after being denied.

 

He'll probably have to check the box for life but he can carry.

[ryan_j 0]

 

Me too. But I'll wait until there is an organized effort to accomplish this.

 

This.

 

Maybe we can pitch this idea to the NJ2AS or a similar organization. I would be down with it.

 

I have a feeling it would be most effective though if the court came back and said that because 94% of permits are granted there's not a problem.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

 

Me too. But I'll wait until there is an organized effort to accomplish this.

 

I'm in

[Pythagoras 2]

 

 

Me too. But I'll wait until there is an organized effort to accomplish this.

 

Count me in, too.

 

It's easier to live with checking the box for life if we know we're all in it together to make a change.

[njpilot 671]

This.

 

Maybe we can pitch this idea to the NJ2AS or a similar organization. I would be down with it.

 

I have a feeling it would be most effective though if the court came back and said that because 94% of permits are granted there's not a problem.

 

That was done already to get some plaintiffs for the current case.

 

Granted, if more were needed to show a lower percent of approved, that would be a new push.

[ryan_j 0]

The plaintiffs were specific cases, IIRC, people who fit into specific categories. This would be sheer numbers of people applying to debunk the "we approve 94% of applicants" myth.

[TIGL 0]

are you implying that you think our FPID will double as a carry permit? that seems a little too awesome for jersey. don't get me wrong, i still think the processes are BS but it would be a nice step.

That would be 100 kinds of fantastic but I don't expect that to happen unless the circuit court specifically ordered it. A man can dream though.

[raz-0 1,259]

Could this lack of effort on the states part just be Christie circumventing the legislature by sending in such a weak argument? I seriously doubt it but the thought crossed my mind and made me chuckle so I figured I would share.

 

No, there just isn't a strong argument to be made about what exists in NJ. Being armed in NJ is considered fundamentally illegal and you are granted exceptions to that legality. This is not an approach that is historically tenable for an enumerated right that has been incorporated.

 

As for the apparent competence, that's just NJ tradition, why do you think whenever we get sued seriously they always hire outside counsel? It's because we historically employ cronies rather than competent individuals.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

No. Mr Muller was granted his permit after being denied.

 

He'll probably have to check the box for life but he can carry.

But the better question is:

Will his renewal application (2 years after issuance) be approved or will he be told that an imminent threat no longer exists, so go pound sand??

[Jeff 13]

 

But the better question is:

Will his renewal application (2 years after issuance) be approved or will he be told that an imminent threat no longer exists, so go pound sand??

 

I asked that very question when he got it. Under current rules, you know his renewal will be denied.

[wooly bugger 1]

 

This.

 

Maybe we can pitch this idea to the NJ2AS or a similar organization. I would be down with it.

 

I have a feeling it would be most effective though if the court came back and said that because 94% of permits are granted there's not a problem.

Agree with this. I'm willing to take the significant risk involved with being denied but would like to know it has a reasonable chance of working.

[wooly bugger 1]

 

For the purpose of not spreading false information please make your comment an interrogative one instead of a declarative one.

 

On a seperate note; I have a feeling that some of the bills passed by the assembly were not there just for the sake of additional gun control. I strongly believe the progressives know that "shall issue" CCW is coming to NJ. Why else would you:

 

Model your Firearms Purchaser Identification Card based on CCW permit structures from other states?

 

Require firearms training required prior to issuance of a FPID

 

Require 5 references instead of 2 (currently you need 3 that have known the applicant for at least 3 years)

 

 

Sit tight Ray. It's coming soon.

 

As much as I'd like to believe this. I doubt the morons who crafted this legislation did it to smooth the way to a flood of CCWs. I suspect the state will drag its feet on this one and then fight it all the way to SCOTUS

[johnp 45]

Agree with this. I'm willing to take the significant risk involved with being denied but would like to know it has a reasonable chance of working.

 

Please explain the significant risk involved.

[wooly bugger 1]

 

Please explain the significant risk involved.

Not a well-defined risk and may be no risk at all, but at least a concern of prejudicing a future application should I ever find refuge in a free state.

[johnp 45]

Not a well-defined risk and may be no risk at all, but at least a concern of prejudicing a future application should I ever find refuge in a free state.

 

Ok. So your fear is that if you ever leave NJ and apply for a ccw in another state there will be some box that asks if you've ever been denied a permit to carry.

 

If you read through this thread at least 20 states were researched and it doesn't ask on their ccw application if you were ever denied a permit to carry.

[PDM 91]

I'd apply if there it is done as part of a coordinated effort. Don't really see what there is to lose other than some aggravation. And when the Chief of Police laughs in my face, I'll politely ask him why one of our town council members was given a CCW (not a retired LEO or an armored car guard).