handgun permit reference

[Spokes 1]

I just received a character reference form for a handgun permit from the Cherry Hill PD. There are more questions than I remember being on the form and after all is said and done, I have to take it and have it notarized before I can send it in. I don't remember ever having to have one notarized before. Do you guys know if this is statewide now or is it just something that CHPD requires. That kinda makes it a pain in the butt. I'll do it because it is for a friend of mine but they sure are tryng to make it as difficult as possible.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Interesting, this is the second thread about CHPD and their requirement for notarization. This is out of control - not only do they require notarized reference letters, but there is a spousal consent letter sent out, that also must be notarized.

 

ALL OF THE ABOVE IS ILLEGAL

 

It is in violation of 2C:58-3f

 

There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card, other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter.

 

Here's a golden opportunity - the applicant is usually reluctant to make waves in fear that the local PD will slow things down more or reject the application. However, if a reference called the NJSP Firearms Unit and said something like, "I just got a reference letter from the CHPD, for a friend applying for (fill in appropriate permit) and they want it notarized. (Then, acting all innocent, say:) I didn't think the local police departments were allowed to add any requirements or forms to the applications process, let alone require they be notarized - can they do that?" And see what kind of reaction you get. Just a thought.

Hope that your friend makes out OK with this. As long as people continue to comply with these illegal requests, PD's will just keep adding more. It's gun control by local fiat.

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Dan 177]

NJ Firearms Statutes are Laws associated with penalties for breaking them when it comes to us sheeple.

 

These same Statutes are merely unenforceable optional guidelines when it comes to many PD's pulling this kind of thing.

 

My friend in Rahway filled out a "Employer Notification" form, which the PD sent to his company to notify them that their employee is looking to purchase a handgun. This was last year, not sure if they are still doing it, but how about them apples!

[PK90 3,573]

There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card, other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter.

 

Don't most PDs send out letters to the references stated on the application forms? Why is that not an additional condition? Why does the notarization make it illegal and not the letter itself?

[savageshooter 10]

They just want to make it as hard as they can, so we just say the hell with it. Don't they know any better? No matter how hard they make it, most of us will never give up.

 

I've been using the same 2 friends for my last 3 permit applications. Both long time gun owners, and the only ones that understand.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Don't most PDs send out letters to the references stated on the application forms? Why is that not an additional condition? Why does the notarization make it illegal and not the letter itself?

 

 

Paul:

 

It is the actual letters, however the notarization imposes an additional condition. This is particularly onerus because now either the applicant or the reference are liable for additional costs. It is just another step across the line and I just think maybe it's time we pushed back.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Don't forget to tear up that employment verification form as well.

[mrjam2jab 9]

This is for a PURCHASE permit???

[mcbethr 42]

I'm kind of scratching my head on this one as well.

 

I can understand letters of reference, but once you take that form to a notary, aren't you increasing the pool of people who will know that a gun will be at that residence? What is to stop someone from making a photocopy of the form ("for internal records - we have to do this") and then using that information to steal said gun in a few months?

 

I'm all for background checks - I understand why they are necessary. I can kind of even understand spousal notification as well, although that could hurt a woman who was purchasing a gun for defense against an abusive husband that she intends to divorce. But can you really trust that clerk at the UPS store who is notarizing your document? How well are *those* people background checked?

 

It sounds like Cherry Hill is setting itself up for a lawsuit. I live here and I'd rather the town hire a new teacher than pay a defense

lawyer.

 

-Bether

This is for a PURCHASE permit???

[savageshooter 10]

It sounds like Cherry Hill is setting itself up for a lawsuit. I live here and I'd rather the town hire a new teacher than pay a defense

lawyer.

 

-Bether

 

Speaking of lawyers, maybe a letter to the township attorney instead of the usual letter to the Police Chief would have better results.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

A couple of other ways to attack this, that I found in the Administrative Code...

 

NJAC 13:54-1.14 Limitation on Fees

No fees, other than those established by this chapter or law, shall be assessed or charged to any person by any governmental entity of this State for the processing of applications, or for the proper investigation of applicants for licenses, permits, cards and registrations in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.

 

Since a notary is licensed by the state, are they not a "governmental entity". Even if that's a stretch, the requiremnt of notarization is at the behest of a "governmental entity".

 

and...

 

N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.15 Confidentiality of background investigations, permits, firearms identification cards, licenses, certifications, certificates, forms of register, registration statements and applications Any background investigation conducted by the chief of police, the Superintendent or the county prosecutor, of any applicant for a permit, firearms identification card license, or registration, in accordance with the requirements of this chapter, is not a public record and shall not be disclosed to any person not authorized by law or this chapter to have access to such investigation, including the applicant. Any application for a permit, firearms identification card, or license, and any document reflecting the issuance or denial of such permit, firearms identification card, or license, and any permit, firearms identification card, license, certification, certificate, form of register, or registration statement, maintained by any State or municipal governmental agency, is not a public record and shall not be disclosed to any person not authorized by law or this chapter to have access to such documentation, including the applicant, except on the request of persons acting in their governmental capacities for purposes of the administration of justice.

Is not the sending of reference letters, letters to employers or letters to spouses a violation of confidentiality? The potential "out" for the PD in this clause is, what exactly is "...their governmental capacities for purposes of the administration of justice."? Regardless, as I pointed out previously, all these extraneous forms violate 2C:58-3,f.

Mcbethr, what you are espousing is a slippery slope and it's thinking like this that has led us to where we are today. The "background check" should be a NICS check, period, end of story. Generally more comprehensive and up to date than any "investigation" a local PD is going to muster. As for spousal employer notification (I know you didn't include "employer", but it is fruit from the same poisonous tree), it is nobody's business, but mine (and under NJ law, by necessity, the police) that I am purchasing a firearm.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

[BierGut 0]

I just received a character reference form for a handgun permit from the Cherry Hill PD. There are more questions than I remember being on the form and after all is said and done, I have to take it and have it notarized before I can send it in. I don't remember ever having to have one notarized before. Do you guys know if this is statewide now or is it just something that CHPD requires. That kinda makes it a pain in the butt. I'll do it because it is for a friend of mine but they sure are tryng to make it as difficult as possible.

 

Forgive me for being a newb here... and maybe I am missing something, but why can't you just go to the NJ State Police and file for your permits there? I never have any of these issues or requirements. (other than the 60-90 day background check)

 

Is there something about Cherry Hill I'm ignorant on?

 

Sorry is I've missed something.

[PK90 3,573]

You must apply in the jurisdiction where you live.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Forgive me for being a newb here... and maybe I am missing something, but why can't you just go to the NJ State Police and file for your permits there? I never have any of these issues or requirements. (other than the 60-90 day background check)

 

 

If you are a resident of a municipality with an established police department, then you must apply there. The NJSP will direct you to your local PD.

 

2C:58-3

d.Issuance. The chief of police of an organized full-time police department of the municipality where the applicant resides or the superintendent, in all other cases, shall upon application, issue to any person qualified under the provisions of subsection c. of this section a permit to purchase a handgun or a firearms purchaser identification card.

 

HTH

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[BierGut 0]

You must apply in the jurisdiction where you live.

 

Thank you. I live in a township without a local police department. Lucky me.

[kwadz 11]

I'm moving to Cherry Hill soon so I used this as a good excuse to contact the township. I just emailed the Det Sgt who runs the firearm permitting for CHPD and politely inquired about this system. I'll update this thread when I get a response.

[axeman_g 128]

I am the other Cherry Hill recipient of the notary reference letter. I have spoken to the Sgt there and a call will be made to the NJSP within the next day or so.

 

I have found out that your bank will notarize any documents for account holders for free. So it is easy for your references to go sign this doc and get it notarized.

 

That does not mean i approve or I not continue with the process, I will not stop getting these permits.

 

Shame, because I was not totally pissed off at the town leadership until now.

[njgunrunner 0]

Hello,

I usually lurk on these pages, but I just ran into a crazy paperwork issue.

 

I'm also in the Cherry Hill township. Is it my imagination, or are the rules changed everytime a new person is assigned to process firearm applications! They were previously handled by Agent DiChurchio. He was let go in a staff reduction.

 

Q: Who do you think is behind the new rule requiring that the 2 references have to have the reference letters notarized? The new police chief, or by the detective assigned to handle the paperwork?

 

This is a major inconvenience to place on your references. Also, do any of you fellow cherry hill people know how they feel if you request 2 vs. 3 permits? I would be curious to hear if any of you have a sizable collection. thanks!

[mcbethr 42]

This is a major inconvenience to place on your references. Also, do any of you fellow cherry hill people know how they feel if you request 2 vs. 3 permits? I would be curious to hear if any of you have a sizable collection. thanks!

 

I applied for 2 permits back in May of last year. The women behind the counter didn't bat an eye. Of course, I came from work and was wearing a nice suit. Or maybe they just treat balding, middle aged, overweight Jewish men differently? ("It's ok boys, he's from the EAST side! It's just going to sit in a safe.")

 

Cherry Hill was fantastic - they got my permits back too fast. I was interested in a Beretta PX4 Compact, and they got the permits back so fast that the permits expired before the PX4 Compact came out! When I extended my permits, they even let my wife pick them up. I have nothing but good things to say about Cherry Hill.

 

I ended up buying nothing. This was fine with me, since I'm more interested in clays and the PX4 would have just sat in the safe looking mechanically interesting. But maybe some kind of sea change happened when Agent DiChurchio left? Maybe it's time for me to apply for a permit that I don't intend to use, just to see the process myself?

 

-Bether

[kwadz 11]

Q: Who do you think is behind the new rule requiring that the 2 references have to have the reference letters notarized? The new police chief, or by the detective assigned to handle the paperwork?

 

DSG. Joseph W. Vitarelli, Jr., #234

Public Information Officer

[email protected]

856-432-8818

 

I spoke with him two weeks ago after seeing these posts. Wife and I are in the process of moving to CH and this was a concern. She and I both have FIDs and would need to transfer them. He told me he "owed this to the taxpayers of Cherry Hill to confirm the references were real people". This wasn't regarding the spousal consent form but the notarization of the references. I didn't want to stir the pot over the phone so I politely told him that I didn't believe that was a legal requirement. He then said that the references could bring the forms directly to the CHPD and they would notarize them for free (getting around the "extra fees/costs" requirement). Unfortunately, I wasn't thinking quickly enough to ask about references that lived far away, such as North Dakota (friend in the USAF). I figured that was more of a reconnaissance phone call to figure out his thought process and then plan around it. I encourage everyone to contact him directly and push this issue - both politely and professionally. As long as he only hears from people who sound like rational and "normal" people, we may be able to defeat this without legal action by just convincing him that it is wrong.

 

I'm copied this exact post from the other Cherry Hill thread, so don't be surprised when you see it there, too.

[njgunrunner 0]

Comment: It would appear that within NJ, towns have the legal authority to enact changes in departmental regulations regarding the procedures for applying for a firearms permit. Or, they are enacting procedures that haven't yet been challenged for their legality. If you google NJ and other key terms (notarized), it appears that within NJ, there are different rules and regulations in each town. How realistic would it be to challenge the new rule on notarized reference letters?

[axeman_g 128]

My wife and I have both spoken with Det Sgt Vitarelli, he has told me that that new Chief is the one requiring the forms to be "Notarized" to insure validity. It states that "people" were not being truthful with the reference letters and were signing them themselves. My BS meter went off at that comment but oh well.

 

I applied for three permits. I have a problem in that my one reference lost the forms and did not tell me, so that is why I am having a delay.

 

Your references can get the forms notarized at their bank, a service most big banks provide for account holders.

 

McBethr... thats funny. The used to feel the same way about me also. DiChurchio retired by the way, and he and I used to talk handguns and shotguns all the time. He was a funny guy. I hope I can build the same kind of rapport with Det Sgt Vitarelli.

[kwadz 11]

DiChurchio retired by the way, and he and I used to talk handguns and shotguns all the time. He was a funny guy. I hope I can build the same kind of rapport with Det Sgt Vitarelli.

 

Axe, Vitarelli was very warm and friendly over the phone. The reason I didn't push back too hard over the phone is exactly the same reason as you stated. I currently have a great relationship with Chief Bauer in Merchantville - he's one of us. I want to stay on good terms with DSG Vitarelli, as well. I figured if my wife and both go in person, with our infant daughter, and meet him when we pick up and/or drop off the forms, he will see us as a professional family and a good neighbor in Cherry Hill as opposed to a conservative activist (let him believe that I'm not one) who threatens everything liberal about Cherry Hill. Who knows - maybe he is even pro-gun and just following the chief's orders!

[vladtepes 1,060]

Comment: It would appear that within NJ, towns have the legal authority to enact changes in departmental regulations regarding the procedures for applying for a firearms permit. Or, they are enacting procedures that haven't yet been challenged for their legality. If you google NJ and other key terms (notarized), it appears that within NJ, there are different rules and regulations in each town. How realistic would it be to challenge the new rule on notarized reference letters?

 

 

I called the NJSP firearms unit about something similar and was told that the PD could ad forms to your firearms application, and that these forms aid in the PD conducting their "investigation"..

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

I called the NJSP firearms unit about something similar and was told that the PD could ad forms to your firearms application, and that these forms aid in the PD conducting their "investigation"..

 

That's what they always hide behind. They leave enough "wiggle-room" that they can circumvent the law and its intent. I thought this was pretty plain and straight forward...

 

There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card, other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter.

 

It's kind of like "Shall not be infringed".

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[kenw 293]

It's kind of like "Shall not be infringed".

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

... and we know exactly how much that means to them.

 

precisely bupkis.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Comment: It would appear that within NJ, towns have the legal authority to enact changes in departmental regulations regarding the procedures for applying for a firearms permit. Or, they are enacting procedures that haven't yet been challenged for their legality. If you google NJ and other key terms (notarized), it appears that within NJ, there are different rules and regulations in each town. How realistic would it be to challenge the new rule on notarized reference letters?

Municipalities cannot disregard the law no matter how you put it. A law is a law, and no policy or regualtion with in a municipality can change that. They can add additional regulations and policy, but they cannot contradict state law.

This isnt federal vs state law, where we have to follow both, but both can be contradicting. The fact it says "there shall be no conditions... other then those specifically set fourth in this chapter" Unless it says notarized forms in the chapter clause i don't see how they can argue it, no matter what there excuse is you should tell them there breaking the law, one which they swore to uphold.

I'm shocked beyond belief that the State Police said they were allowed to that, if i was on the phone i would ask them how they came to that conclusion, and why state law specifically contradicts there statement.

[njgunrunner 0]

jack,

It appears that cherry hill is trying to discourage firearm permits. As you know, the process is not an easy one. If you have any items on your record, like a domestic or minor misdimeanor offense, you can be denied. I understand that if you have a domestic complaint (psycho girlfriend or upset wife), you can be denied a permit, or face an uphill battle for one.

 

Then there is the challenge of getting 2 friends who will not think you are a rambo for even wanting a handgun. Now that Cherry Hill is demanding 2 notarized reference letters, how many friends can you willingly subject to this degree of inconvenience?

 

Only those of us who are suffering under such harsh paperwork requirements can understand the plight of fellow NJ gun applicants. In my case, Cherry hill's new notarized requirement is a hardship for my references. I may need to befriend someone on this forum for my next permit!

mike

[tommy3rd 132]

If only you lived up north, I'll notarize for you. Also, contrary to popular belief, paying for a notary doesn't break the bank. The most a notary can charge by law for anything is like $2.50. I don't remember the exact figure but I know it's definitely less than $5. I do it for my friends for free, even going to their place whenever possible.

[bry@n 195]

I have my stuff done while at work.

 

If the OP is not a part of the NJ2AS, he should be and matter of fact, so should all CH members.

 

I would ask the NJ2AS to look into the matter and help in any way possible. As Pizza Bob has pointed out, it seems clear to me. I would have the document in hand, show them and threaten a suit.

 

Problem is, is you let people push you back and back, when will they stop pushing. If they pro long your stuff, make an issue. The time has come to stand up.