handgun permit reference

[djg0770 481]

Municipalities cannot disregard the law no matter how you put it. A law is a law, and no policy or regualtion with in a municipality can change that. They can add additional regulations and policy, but they cannot contradict state law.

This isnt federal vs state law, where we have to follow both, but both can be contradicting. The fact it says "there shall be no conditions... other then those specifically set fourth in this chapter" Unless it says notarized forms in the chapter clause i don't see how they can argue it, no matter what there excuse is you should tell them there breaking the law, one which they swore to uphold.

I'm shocked beyond belief that the State Police said they were allowed to that, if i was on the phone i would ask them how they came to that conclusion, and why state law specifically contradicts there statement.

 

Unfortunately, municipalities regularly disregard the law. Sometimes out of ignorance, and sometimes purposely. As a citizen, it is your right / obligation to point out that they are violating the law. If they persist after being notified of their indiscretion, relief is afforded through the law (in English - sue their azz).

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Unfortunately, municipalities regularly disregard the law. Sometimes out of ignorance, and sometimes purposely. As a citizen, it is your right / obligation to point out that they are violating the law. If they persist after being notified of their indiscretion, relief is afforded through the law (in English - sue their azz).

Oh i know they do what ever they want most of the time, in general it seems to be more of a municipality issue then a single officer doing what ever he wants or feels is right. And i don't know why so many people sit back and let it happen. I seem to be one of the very.. very few and lucky ones who has a very good PD, the dont harass you when applying, and they do it by the book, and there very nice and helpful, talk to you eye to eye. If i lived in Cherry Hill you can bet i would be raising all hell. If you have any relatives who are lawyers i would have them write a formal letter to the PD which states the next letter will be a subpoena to appear in court if they continue to blatantly disregard the law. My main concern would be..what is next. If they are allowed to break the law and get away with it, you are only empowering them more to do it in other areas of the law.

I have a problem with people including law enforcement, who initially think of you as some criminal or bad person, and it is up to you to prove otherwise. This mindset there under is that the treat everyone as some guntoting criminal and you have to prove to them you aren't.

Obviously people just don't care, becuase if someone really did, the whole state would be on top of this and the NJSP wouldn't be continuing to support municipalities who break the law. One big lawsuit would create a chain effect, we see it happen all the time in the education system. One school get's sued, and most if not all will change policy so it doesnt happen again, money is very tight right now and i don't see why they would open themselves up to lawsuits, obviously it's not a issue to them right now so they do it anyway.

[PK90 3,573]

I just got the reference letter for someone who is applying in Cherry Hill. I will fill it out and attach a copy of the law. I doubt that this one time will sway their thinking, but it'll be a start. Now if everybody did that, things will change. I'll post a copy here tomorrow.

 

 

[mrjam2jab 9]

I just got the reference letter for someone who is applying in Cherry Hill. I will fill it out and attach a copy of the law. I doubt that this one time will sway their thinking, but it'll be a start. Now if everybody did that, things will change. I'll post a copy here tomorrow.

 

 

As long as you fill out the form they win....they wont even pay any attention to the rest that you attach. To make your statement, send the form back BLANK with the law attached.

[greatgunstatenj 32]

You must apply in the jurisdiction where you live.

 

This goes for state troopers as well. I thought that was kind of crazy when I first heard it (from a friend who is NJSP).

 

I'm not sure why they need a notary to attest to who the reference is/is not. A phone call appears to do the job for my PD. I think the reference requirement is somewhat pointless. No one is going to use a person as a reference if they think they may get a negative response. Perhaps if everyone an applicant knows thinks the applicant is crazy this is a good deterrent! But a crazy person like that probably won't obtain a gun legally if they really want one.

[tommy3rd 132]

This goes for state troopers as well. I thought that was kind of crazy when I first heard it (from a friend who is NJSP).

That just happened the last few years. They used to be able to just walk in the SBI unit and get it approved on the spot. Now they have to go to their respective town PD, which takes just as long as regular folks.

[bulpup 98]

As long as you fill out the form they win....they wont even pay any attention to the rest that you attach. To make your statement, send the form back BLANK with the law attached.

 

? You dont want him to fill out the form at all? How would that help anything?

[djg0770 481]

As long as you fill out the form they win....they wont even pay any attention to the rest that you attach. To make your statement, send the form back BLANK with the law attached.

 

You realize that this is the form permitted by law? How is returning it BLANK helping anyone? The problem here is requiring someone to notarize the legally permitted form where the statute mentions NOTHING about requiring notarization.

[kwadz 11]

As long as you fill out the form they win....they wont even pay any attention to the rest that you attach. To make your statement, send the form back BLANK with the law attached.

 

I would agree if you are referring to the spousal consent form, but a reference form does not go against the law. However, I would agree with you if you said to send it back without notarization and with a copy of the law. I would be curious to see how they would handle that. They can't legally deny the applicant because his reference did not have the form notarized, can they? In fact, if they did delay and legal action had to be taken, a judge might even be able to stop them from requiring notarization as a means of determining eligibility since it has nothing to do with the applicant directly.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

You realize that this is the form permitted by law?

 

 

Where does the law permit a separate reference form? The only forms, by statute or AC, ar the STS-033, the mental health form and the CBC (212 A or B - I forget which). There are two lines on the STS-033 for the applicant to list references, but no specific separate form that I'm aware of - at least none mentioned in law.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[PK90 3,573]

The law does not specifically state that the references will be sent letters or will be contacted, but the guide issued to PDs state a specific process of how to investigate and what forms should be sent out to the references. If one was to put down Charles Manson or Ted Bundy as a character reference and no further investigation was done, it would not bide well for the PD if something should happen in the future.

 

See the attached pic for a portion of the guide that described the process. Also attached is the portion of the PDs investigation report that refers to the references. I do not have a sample reference form as part of the guide.

[axeman_g 128]

PK is spot on here... and some towns opt not to follow the guidelines. For us in towns that do opt to follow the guidelines, we have to play along. The ONLY question is the REQUIREMENT of notarization. Problem is, can people or organizations that give out forms request notarization on anything they want? Can an employer ask that you get your employment application notarized, what about a cell phone contract? Where is the line?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

From my understanding this "guide" was written by the NJSP. It is a guide and as such, does not have the force of law. Just as (from another current thread) most PD's will "strongly recommend" that you voluntarily register weapons legally brought into the state - there is no force of law to compel you to do so. The question becomes: How can the NJSP publish a guide for municipal PD's that, in essence, instructs them to violate the statute by adding content - even to the extent of, apparently, furnishing the additional content in the form of some kind of standardized reference form? Was this guide vetted by the AG, and if so, why isn't it part of the AC? It really boils down to those in power tend to do what they want regardless of the law. This is truly fuedal and we're the serfs. It's similar to when we were children and you questioned a parent's instruction and they said, "Because I say so, that's why." The rule of law prevents a tyrannical government from "saying so".

 

JMHO

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

 

[Rgrdocstud 6]

I would agree if you are referring to the spousal consent form, but a reference form does not go against the law. However, I would agree with you if you said to send it back without notarization and with a copy of the law. I would be curious to see how they would handle that. They can't legally deny the applicant because his reference did not have the form notarized, can they? In fact, if they did delay and legal action had to be taken, a judge might even be able to stop them from requiring notarization as a means of determining eligibility since it has nothing to do with the applicant directly.

 

This is absolutely correct. As others have said, this a case of certain local police departments (not all) persistently deviating from the state statutes because their actions are rarely challenged. Requiring additional forms beyond those specified by the state statutes is illegal and is legitimate grounds for a lawsuit. I don't believe that sending back a copy of the law would be enough to curb their behavior. They probably get that all the time. However, if you can get an attorney, I'd highly recommend it. Politely refuse to fill out the extra forms. Then have your attorney write a letter to the PD politely insisting that your application be processed according to the state statues, with relevant sections of the statutes included. That establishes a time line and begins a paper trail if the case goes to court, but it most likely won't: A letter from your attorney shows that you know you have solid grounds for a case and you are prepared to take it to court, which might cause a judge to rule in your favor, forcing them to cease the policy in the future. PD's that engage in this illegal and discriminatory practice DO NOT want the case to go before a judge, so they will give in.

 

IANAL, but I've seen it happen. This practice is shameful in its own right, but it also discriminates against those who don't know the law and/or can't afford an attorney. Personally, I would love to see one of these cases go to court and end the practice for good, but like I said they rarely do.

[PK90 3,573]

I just got the reference letter for someone who is applying in Cherry Hill. I will fill it out and attach a copy of the law. I doubt that this one time will sway their thinking, but it'll be a start. Now if everybody did that, things will change. I'll post a copy here tomorrow.

 

Well, I received the reference form back with a post it note stating that the form needs to be notarized. WHat to do. What to do. Hmmm.

[n4p226r 105]

What a joke. So we either bend over and take it or get a lawyer and pay out

[mrjam2jab 9]

Well, I received the reference form back with a post it note stating that the form needs to be notarized. WHat to do. What to do. Hmmm.

 

 

Did they send you another blank one? You can't get if notarized if it's already signed...

[PK90 3,573]

Nah. They returned the same one. I'm taking care of it.

[bulpup 98]

The law does not specifically state that the references will be sent letters or will be contacted, but the guide issued to PDs state a specific process of how to investigate and what forms should be sent out to the references. If one was to put down Charles Manson or Ted Bundy as a character reference and no further investigation was done, it would not bide well for the PD if something should happen in the future.

 

See the attached pic for a portion of the guide that described the process. Also attached is the portion of the PDs investigation report that refers to the references. I do not have a sample reference form as part of the guide.

 

 

I wish I hadn't read line 21 in that pic, because I am going to say something that won't make anyone happy; it does appear from reading that that the "intent" is to verify identification of the reference. Although it states that this is to be done by asking for a drivers license # via the telephone, the same is accomplished by requiring a notary for the print document. This I state because a notary must check your ID (driver's license). SO although the description is written about a phone interview, it can be implied that the intent of verifying the reference is in there. Thereby making the notary a means of verifying the person's driver's license, like as via the phone.

[PK90 3,573]

What is the point of a reference anyway?

What happens if an applicant is deemed a prohibited person?

Does the reference suffer?

What if the applicant uses a firearm in a crime?

Does anything happen to the reference?

 

These are rhetorical questions. No need to answer. We all know the answers. It is a waste of time. Just like a print on your FPID. Useless.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

What is the point of a reference anyway?

What happens if an applicant is deemed a prohibited person?

Does the reference suffer?

What if the applicant uses a firearm in a crime?

Does anything happen to the reference?

 

These are rhetorical questions. No need to answer. We all know the answers. It is a waste of time. Just like a print on your FPID. Useless.

 

Hey they are tying, they change to the index finger from the old thumb.

 

Harry

[bulpup 98]

What is the point of a reference anyway?

What happens if an applicant is deemed a prohibited person?

Does the reference suffer?

What if the applicant uses a firearm in a crime?

Does anything happen to the reference?

 

These are rhetorical questions. No need to answer. We all know the answers. It is a waste of time. Just like a print on your FPID. Useless.

 

 

I do believe there is something to be gained by having a reference check, just like with a job application. The questions you ask above could be applied to your work references but wouldn't seem to hold any weight.

 

Here is a point for discusion, and understand that I come from a family of mental health practitioners so I have a different way of looking at some of these issues;

 

Remember Jason Laughntner's friend that slowly watched him get more and more crazy? Would it make sense to directly ask him what he thought about the man before the incident? What would he have said? (I understand that in this instance the time line and the fact that jason L already had the pistol would make this impossible, it is just hypothetical).

 

and the follow up question, if we all here can beleive that with CCW and a crap load of courage we could stop a madman from shooting up the place, would we equally have the courage to write that a person was "probably not mentally competent" on a reference form?

 

I say "courage" to do that because for all the freedoms, rights and "I am no doctor so who am I to say," we all beleive in, sometimes we lay-people know crazy when we see it.

[LorenzoS 100]

We would be safer if we had background checks before buying a car, checking out a book from the library, buying a house or even just randomly to prove you are still innocent today. China and Iran have had great success with this policy.

[kwadz 11]

Remember Jason Laughntner's friend that slowly watched him get more and more crazy? Would it make sense to directly ask him what he thought about the man before the incident? What would he have said? (I understand that in this instance the time line and the fact that jason L already had the pistol would make this impossible, it is just hypothetical).

 

The catch is that if Jared had to get two references, he would probably contact some of his online gaming friends who have never met him in person and asked them to fill out the forms for him. He'd have them sent to them, they would (possibly being equally crazy) fill them out, get them notarized, and clear him to purchase. Anyone can find two people willing to sign anything. Unless you want to open the can of worms containing a full neighbor, coworker, teacher, and everyone else who ever knew someone background check, there is no way to effectively protect the public with references.

 

I'd really like to see some stats from NJSP about how many people have actually received negative reference responses since the system has been in place.

[bulpup 98]

 

I'd really like to see some stats from NJSP about how many people have actually received negative reference responses since the system has been in place.

 

 

That would be very interesting.