Thumbhole/pistol grip legality questions

[theduke 2]

The question I have about the legality of thumb hole/ pistol grips stocks is can you get a medical clearance to have one on semi auto shotguns like the way you could get a permit to use a crossbow before Nj legalized them. The reason I ask is due to a work injury I had to have my wrist fused and I can no longer grip a shotgun stock because my wrist is permantly straight. I know legaly I can change the stocks on my pump shotguns but I was told on semi auto's it is Illegal. is there any way around this.

[vjf915 456]

From what I remember, thumbhole stocks are not considered pistol grip stocks. However, I think that would be dancing so close to that fine line that it's not worth it. I think your best bet is to sell your semi-auto shotguns and just stick with pumps.

[theduke 2]

From what I remember, thumbhole stocks are not considered pistol grip stocks. However, I think that would be dancing so close to that fine line that it's not worth it. I think your best bet is to sell your semi-auto shotguns and just stick with pumps.

I'll never sell any of my guns. My grandfather and father have every gun they have ever owned my grandfather has his ol mans guns. we just keep passing them down the family. So selling is out of the question. Do you know of which statue has the info about semis and stocks. As I use my semi's whell I used to use them a couple times a week as I am an avid hunter.

[Dan 177]

2C:39-1 (3)A semi-automatic shotgun with either a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds, a pistol grip, or a folding stock.

[vladtepes 1,060]

NJ defines the word pistol grip.. so we know what it means.. and it means

 

"Pistol grip" means a well defined handle, similar to that found on a handgun, that protrudes

conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, and which permits the firearm to be held and fired

with one hand.

 

LEGALLY by this definition there are MANY thumbholes I would not consider pistol grips.. the words conspicuously beneath the action AND held with one hand.. to me make several thumbhole stocks that I have seen legal.. but I do not have enough faith in this belief to buy a saiga 12 and put said skeleton stock on it.. there is a clear definition... and as long as your stock does not fit said description the weapon is legal.. or at least should be legal..

[Shane45 807]

If I were you I would research "Americans with Disabilities Act". Maybe some protection or accomodation lurking in there somewhere.

[vjf915 456]

LEGALLY by this definition there are MANY thumbholes I would not consider pistol grips.. the words conspicuously beneath the action AND held with one hand.. to me make several thumbhole stocks that I have seen legal.. but I do not have enough faith in this belief to buy a saiga 12 and put said skeleton stock on it.. there is a clear definition... and as long as your stock does not fit said description the weapon is legal.. or at least should be legal..

 

To me the "handle, like on a pistol" is what would make a thumbhole stock legal. Just like you, I'm not going to take the chance. You can hold almost any thumbhole stock just as easily as a regular pistol grip, IF NOT EASIER because the piece that connects the grip to the stock helps stabilize against your wrist.

[SpecialK 193]

If I were you I would research "Americans with Disabilities Act". Maybe some protection or accomodation lurking in there somewhere.

 

That was my first thought. This would be a good chance to challenge these ridiculous laws. Contact the NJ2AS (www.nj2as.com) and they would be willing to help. Your legal fees are paid when suing under the American with Disabilities Act, so most lawyers will at least talk to at no charge to see if you have a case they can win.

[theduke 2]

That was my first thought. This would be a good chance to challenge these ridiculous laws. Contact the NJ2AS (www.nj2as.com) and they would be willing to help. Your legal fees are paid when suing under the American with Disabilities Act, so most lawyers will at least talk to at no charge to see if you have a case they can win.

Thanks I will be taking your advice with the NJ2AS I cant see letting all of my shotguns just sit there and not be used and it will be a couple more years before my son can shoot all of them.

[BigBlueQ 7]

How about the Remington Shurshot stock? I've always wondered about that.

Shurshot

[RecessedFilter 222]

I talked to the SP firearms unit about a year ago and they told me that a thumbhole stock is considered a pistol grip.

 

Take that for what it's worth...

[Joelk 61]

For what it is worth the ATF considers thumbhole stocks to be pistol grips.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

For what it is worth the ATF considers thumbhole stocks to be pistol grips.

 

Citation?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Citation?

 

 

actually doesn't the ATF NOT consider them to be pistol grips.. which is why many guns that are imported have them instead of full out pistol grips..

[Turbotezza 1]

^^ +1

[Joelk 61]

Citation?

Here is a hard to read PDF of 2005 letter page 1 page 2, and the text in a readable format:

U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

Firearms and Explosives

 

NOV 1, 2005

 

903050:ELG

3311/2005-663

 

Dear Mr. LESchwartz:

 

This refers to your letter, received by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), September16, 2005, pertaining to a Saiga AK-type semiautomatic rifle. Specifically, you requested a clarification regarding modifications to Saiga rifles. Your letter was forwarded to FTB’s new location in Martinsburg, WV, for reply.

 

As you may be aware, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 922®, prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing regulations contained in 27 CFR § 478.39 (formerly 1 78.39) include the stipulation that “no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of certain imported parts, if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.”

 

These parts are tabulated below:

 

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings.

(2) Barrels.

(3) Barrel extensions.

(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).

(5) Muzzle attachments.

(6) Bolts.

(7) Bolt carriers.

(8) Operating rods.

(9) Gas pistons.

(10) Trigger housings.

(11) Triggers.

(12) Hammers.

(13) Sears.

(14) Disconnectors.

(15) Buttstocks.

(16) Pistol grips.

(17) Forearms, handguards.

(18) Magazine bodies.

(19) Followers.

(20) Floor plates.

 

Because certain AK-type semiautomatic rifles are currently prohibited from importation, the assembly of such rifles using more than 10 of the above imported parts is prohibited under § 922®. However, assembly of AK-type semiautomatic rifles using 10 or fewer of these imported parts is not prohibited under this section.

 

With respect to the questions in your letter, we will answer them in the order they were posed, as follows:

 

Question 1: Would modifying a Saiga rifle by replacing the existing buttstock with a ‘thumbhole style” stock result in a rifle prohibited from importation under Title 18 USC, Section 925(d)?

 

Answer: Yes. if your Saiga rifle is assembled using more than 10 of the imported parts in the above-cited 922®.

 

Question 2: With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 178), section 478.39©: Is thumbhole style stock counted as a buttstock, as a “pistol grip”, or both?

 

Answer: Both: The “thumbhole stock” about which you inquire is considered a combination of a pistol grip and a buttstock, therefore counting as two parts with reference to the parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39© (formerly 178.39©).

 

Please note that the above answers are applicable to .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 calibers.

 

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your questions.

 

Sincerely yours,

 

Sterling Nixon

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

 

Edited to add:

HERE is another letter.

 

For more ATF letters see Google.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

actually doesn't the ATF NOT consider them to be pistol grips.. which is why many guns that are imported have them instead of full out pistol grips..

 

Thats what I was thinking. PAP, MAK-90, the original WASRs...

[vjf915 456]

Yes, but just because the BATFE doesn't consider a thumbhole stock a pistol grip....does not mean that NJ doesn't consider it a pistol grip. I personally feel that most thumbhole stocks fit NJ's definition of a pistol grip.

[vladtepes 1,060]

does not mean that NJ doesn't consider it a pistol grip. I personally feel that thumbhole stocks fit NJ's definition of a pistol grip.

 

 

+1

[PK90 3,573]

MY RULE: If the web formed by the thumb and trigger finger is above the trigger, it is NOT a pistol gripped stock.

 

[vjf915 456]

Paul, that's an interesting point. Can you post a picture of that grip without the hand in the way?

[PK90 3,573]

It is not my hand. The pic was from a Kalifornia gun website.

[Turbotezza 1]

I've heard others mentioned this before. Do you know if this interpretation based on a certain document/ruling etc. or is it urban legend?

 

MY RULE: If the web formed by the thumb and trigger finger is above the trigger, it is NOT a pistol gripped stock.

[vjf915 456]

I hate to say it but....It just doesn't seem that accurate. Certain rifles, even an AR15 with a standard A2 grip could have the web of your hand above or below that line depending on how you grip the gun.

[PK90 3,573]

I hate to say it but....It just doesn't seem that accurate. Certain rifles, even an AR15 with a standard A2 grip could have the web of your hand above or below that line depending on how you grip the gun.

 

Yes, you are right. I found an interpretation of the CA law, "A thumbhole stock that allows the web of your hand to be below the action is considered to be a pistol grip.

[vjf915 456]

Dear god, that is just about as vague as NJ's laws. The "allows" is the word that bothers me, as it leaves A LOT of room for interpretation, and screwing with law abiding citizens.

[Turbotezza 1]

Here's another one to think about. These rules all mention below/beneath/under the 'action' of the firearm. What if the grip was below/beneath/under the barrel as in a bullpup gun?

[Soju 153]

The fact that any of this even matters is what is really mind boggling to me.

 

 

If you can flip the bird while holding the rifle it is illegal, but if you can perform a proper thumbs up while maintaining positive control the rifle is legal.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Here's another one to think about. These rules all mention below/beneath/under the 'action' of the firearm. What if the grip was below/beneath/under the barrel as in a bullpup gun?

That wouldn't apply, since the law AG's interpretation of the law also says that a "pistol grip" is designed to allow the gun to be held and fired with one hand.

[vjf915 456]

That wouldn't apply, since the law AG's interpretation of the law also says that a "pistol grip" is designed to allow the gun to be held and fired with one hand.

I have to 100% disagree with you on this statement for one reason: "and".

"Pistol grip" means a well defined handle, similar to that found on a handgun, that protrudes

conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, and which permits the firearm to be held and fired

with one hand.

This means that BOTH requirements must be met. Not only must you be be able to hold and fire it with one hand, but the grip must ALSO be beneath the action of the weapon. Any DECENT lawyer should be able to fight that case.