Probable Cause for a Search and going to the Range

[The Dark Knight 11]

ONLY after showing a few PBA cards did the bug crawl from out their a**.

 

Which is really sad, because this isn't feudal Japan. I should not have to pay tribute to the warrior class under penalty of harsh treatment. Personally, I object to PBA cards and find them insulting. I never donate and though I've been given a few, they quickly find their way to the garbage can. Let them harass me I'd rather get a ticket than grovel.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

Damn, sucks to be you. Do you have a bumper sticker that reads harrass me? At least the PBA cards worked.

 

Nope and I am judging from the time I was 18 up until now (39).

[mikeyboyeee 66]

Which is really sad, because this isn't feudal Japan. I should not have to pay tribute to the warrior class under penalty of harsh treatment. Personally, I object to PBA cards and find them insulting. I never donate and though I've been given a few, they quickly find their way to the garbage can. Let them harass me I'd rather get a ticket than grovel.

 

I am not sure where u come from but no one I know considers handing over an additional piece of plastic or 2 while handing over their license groveling.

 

You must come from a long line of broke tough guys

[KpdPipes 388]

Which is really sad, because this isn't feudal Japan. I should not have to pay tribute to the warrior class under penalty of harsh treatment. Personally, I object to PBA cards and find them insulting. I never donate and though I've been given a few, they quickly find their way to the garbage can. Let them harass me I'd rather get a ticket than grovel.

 

Why Accept them at all then?

[tbtrout 141]

Nope and I am judging from the time I was 18 up until now (39).

You either live in a bad town or drive a hot rod. Or just have bad luck with cops.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Actually, I have not found this to be the case.

Every time I have been pulled over, the cops have been complete dicks no matter how courteously I treated them. ONLY after showing a few PBA cards did the bug crawl from out their a**.

 

I have found this to be the case as well. However I don't have any LEO in my family, therefore no golden ticket, er I mean PBA card.

 

I am 33 now. Up until a few years ago I have always been nice to any officer that has pulled me over, I make sure I pull over somewhere that they can get out of the car with no chance of being hit. I'll put the hazards on, drive another 150 feet or so to get off the major road by pulling into a driveway or parking lot. I'll put the light on at night and wait to get my info out of the glove compartment and none of it has ever mattered. They have ALWAYS been dicks to me. Now don't get me wrong, I have only been pulled over approx 4-5 times in 15 years of driving but not once have they been courteous to me.

 

Those situations have given me an anti-cop attitude. In my life I have seen most situations involving police get worse instead of better. Maybe I have just been unlucky and not gotten good cops in the incidents I have been involved in, who knows. However the few incidents I have been involved in have definatly jaded me.

[Recon Racoon 49]

I haven't been pulled over (yet) so I can't really say anything about personal experiences. What can say is that Probable Cause only extends to plain sight, and the passenger area. Anything over than that, you have to consent to a search or they need a warrant. I asked a couple cops about this, in NJ and FL and both said the same thing. Sure there are dicks out there but all you have to say is "I do not consent to any searches" problem solved. If they search after that, its considered illegal and they have to back it up in court with burden of proof. Sure they can use excuses like reasonable suspicion, in plain view, etc but it falls to burden of proof if it goes to court. If the officer can't back it up, they have you recorded saying you don't consent, and the evidence gained in an illegal the case is thrown out. You can win, you can do it legally, but you'll piss the cop off by exercising your rights, but you're protected from him anyway because you exercised your rights to begin with.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Most if not all of my run ins with LEO have been warranted and very polite. I have noticed one thing tho, most if not all of the cases which i found the LEO to be a complete D*ck was Newbies on the force and the younger guys. Even when i stop in the station i get this attitude from the younger guys on the force... The older ones are much cooler and respectful, its like night and day between the two. I can barely talk to the younger guys without feeling like there tying to belittle me, but i can and have had long conversations with some of the older guys and there pretty cool and respectful.

 

I remember being pulled over in paramus when i was stopped for tint on my car, which i do not have by the way.... It was an LEO in his mid 20's and he harassed me for 20mins over nothing because he couldn't find something to write me up for, and then pretended like he was doing me a favor by letting me go with no ticket... I had to put him in place, someone had to... he made me late for class over nothing and was kinda laughing at the fact, really obnoxious...

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I'll tell you I used to get pulled over all the time when I was younger, I used to ride a 70 Chopper and another 74 chopper back in 84 - 86 in southern Kali, out there any person on a chopper was a patched club member, didn;t matter I wasn't or I was wearing a 3 piece suit and clean cut, I would get pulled over every single day, one day I was even pulled over 4 times on a little over 10 mile ride to work.

 

The problem wasn't the way I rode or drove my vehicles, but a person on a chopper was to be stopped no matter what, the usual, DL and REG, didn't need to show INS being it wasn't needed back then but I still had it. Check for weapons, drugs, engine and frame numbers warrants etc. This was a pain in the butt, but guess what, I never copped and attitude (pun not intended) and I a few times where I seemed to run into the PO who was having a bad day and that was just the initial meeting, a few minutes into it we were BS'ing and telling each other to have a nice day.

 

Fast forward to today, I won't jinx my self by stating when the last time I was pulled over, and I won't even jinx my driving record, but I did speak to a Ohio State Police Officer back in the summer of 08, and I did get a ticket (failure to remain in control of my vehicle was the jist of the ticket) and a handshake and a hug but not from the PO. I was riding my 2000 Harley in a bad rain storm from CO to NJ to make it back in time to see my daughter off before she went to visit her grandparents, well it was pouring and I came around a corner on I70 just about 10 miles from WV and hit something in the road that forced me into a tumble roll, slide, split (that hurt) at about 70 MPH and wrecked the bike. I was OK but the bike didn't make it, the PO said I was 1 of 4 that he had this happen to this week and I was the first person to speak with him and even make a joke or 3 with him, all the others didn't make it. Well the hug came in when the flatbed came to pick my bike up, well one of the 4 that didn't make it was his best friend and said he had to get one from me just wising it was his friend. Wild time, and not something I want to ever repeat but anyone who had been riding for any amount of time will go down, and if they said they haven't, well they are either lying, or it just hasn't happened yet but will.

 

Oh sorry about that, got off track, To this day I may have had only 1 maybe 2 who no matter what I did weren't really nice to me.

 

Harry

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Wait a minute... he gave you a ticket!!??? after all that he felt it was necessary to give you a ticket???

[Dan 177]

As for taping police stops check this video of Stossel out:

 

 

Skip to 2:00 for something really scary and BS. Thats a big gun to be drawing as you exit your car and are not in uniform, I would have flipped.

 

This is scary.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Wait a minute... he gave you a ticket!!??? after all that he felt it was necessary to give you a ticket???

 

If that was for me, yup, failure to keep control of my vehicle, didn't mind at the time either being after what happened to me I shouldn't been talking to anybody any longer. If i didn't have to go back to OH to fight the ticket I would have, but for the time and cost it would take me to do that it just wasn't worth it to me. If it was in NJ, I sure would have.

 

Harry

[mikeyboyeee 66]

You either live in a bad town or drive a hot rod. Or just have bad luck with cops.

 

 

Never lived in a bad town and never owned a hot rod.

 

Either I have bad luck or most cops are dicks when they pull people over. Even when they pull you over with some stupid excuse just so they can see if they can manage to find something.

 

Before I hear it, one of my best friends is a LEO and am friends with a couple of others, but truth be told, most cops act like dicks!

 

State Troopers BY FAR the biggest dicks. ALL OF THEM.

 

Locals tend to be better.

[Malsua 1,422]

 

 

State Troopers BY FAR the biggest dicks. ALL OF THEM.

 

 

 

If you had to wear that hat all day, you'd be pissed off too.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

If you had to wear that hat all day, you'd be pissed off too.

 

Maybe

[The Dark Knight 11]

State Troopers BY FAR the biggest dicks. ALL OF THEM.

 

What do expect from guys who wear a uniform resembling 1930's fascist military officers?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Never lived in a bad town and never owned a hot rod.

 

Either I have bad luck or most cops are dicks when they pull people over. Even when they pull you over with some stupid excuse just so they can see if they can manage to find something.

 

Before I hear it, one of my best friends is a LEO and am friends with a couple of others, but truth be told, most cops act like dicks!

 

State Troopers BY FAR the biggest dicks. ALL OF THEM.

 

Locals tend to be better.

 

Not sure dude, but maybe subconsciously your actions are letting them know that's how you may feel. I have lots of friend that work in law enforcement in general and yes sometimes they can have a bad day, all of do from time to time, but they are just like you and I, they have a job to do just like you and I, they just chose a profession that with the right attitude can be very rewarding.

 

Give you an example, you see an old couple on the side of the road with a flat tire, you pull over, help them out and fell like you did your good deed for the day, and they may insist you take something for your trouble, but refuse and just tell them to have a good day and hope someone would do that for you when needed. I'd bet there would be a few in here that would tell a little story about what they did and many of us you give them a +1 for that. Well someone in that profession can have them every day, and many other stories that can go up to saving a life, imagine how that would feel, on the flip side of that coin, it isn't the safest job in the world either, ask any one who has had to respond to a DV call, probably one of the top 10 most volatile calls you can get.

 

It does take a different mind set to put yourself in that situation on a daily basis, and just like any other profession you have good ones and bad ones, but if you really looked at the numbers, there are more good than bad.

 

Harry

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Sed quis custodiet ipsos cutodes. I agree, who watches the watchers................

[KpdPipes 388]

What do expect from guys who wear a uniform resembling 1930's fascist military officers?

 

 

or why allow a fact (Like the one that the NJSP uniform was designed in 1926..before the NSDAP came into existance) Spoil a good story.....

[BRaptor 68]

Glad to see this thread has devolved into some nice, novel LEO bashing.

 

I'll toss in my two cents.

 

First, if a LEO has probable cause, they don't need a warrant to search your car. PERIOD. That's been US Supreme Court law for going on at least 90 years, good luck getting it changed.

 

There's even some argument that the police shouldn't need probable cause to "pat down" you and your car during an interaction if they have reasonable suspicion that you are involved in a crime.

 

Plus, if you've been pulled over for an infraction, you can be arrested and you and your car will be searched and inventoried. (even for speeding, running a stoplight or changing lanes without signaling. It's officer discretion to issue a summons for an infraction. They are within their right to arrest you for violating ANY law.)

 

So, this entire discussion is an exercise in futility, because if an officer tells you he's going to search your car, there's not a damn thing you can do, unless you want to be charged with assaulting an officer. You sit there and you take it. Maybe you can mouth-off a bit, but you cannot physically stop him. The only time this probable cause, reasonable suspicion, warrant discussion occurs is in the courtroom...LONG after you've been arrested and searched.

 

The recourse that you have if you feel you've been unlawfully detained and searched is to sue the police in civil court for violating your US Const. rights. But, again, that occurs LONG after the encounter.

 

So, what do you do? Don't be an a**, don't consent to a search and don't talk. Much discussion beyond that is academic.

[Anselmo 87]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

How can the police arrest you for an unsignaled lane change?

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Not that I would ever even consider doing this, but has anyone ever been arrested and prosecuted for stopping on the way home from the range for a cup of coffee, or worse yet, for getting something to eat?

[halbautomatisch 60]

Glad to see this thread has devolved into some nice, novel LEO bashing.

 

I'll toss in my two cents.

 

First, if a LEO has probable cause, they don't need a warrant to search your car. PERIOD. That's been US Supreme Court law for going on at least 90 years, good luck getting it changed.

 

There's even some argument that the police shouldn't need probable cause to "pat down" you and your car during an interaction if they have reasonable suspicion that you are involved in a crime.

 

Plus, if you've been pulled over for an infraction, you can be arrested and you and your car will be searched and inventoried. (even for speeding, running a stoplight or changing lanes without signaling. It's officer discretion to issue a summons for an infraction. They are within their right to arrest you for violating ANY law.)

 

So, this entire discussion is an exercise in futility, because if an officer tells you he's going to search your car, there's not a damn thing you can do, unless you want to be charged with assaulting an officer. You sit there and you take it. Maybe you can mouth-off a bit, but you cannot physically stop him. The only time this probable cause, reasonable suspicion, warrant discussion occurs is in the courtroom...LONG after you've been arrested and searched.

 

The recourse that you have if you feel you've been unlawfully detained and searched is to sue the police in civil court for violating your US Const. rights. But, again, that occurs LONG after the encounter.

 

So, what do you do? Don't be an a**, don't consent to a search and don't talk. Much discussion beyond that is academic.

The police CANNOT (legally) search your vehicle if the only thing you did wrong was break a traffic law. One of the states in the mid west (I think it was Indiana) passed a law like this in the 90's and it was stuck down by SCOTUS. I remember the justices asking the attorney defending this case "what further evidence of speeding are you expecting to find by searching a persons car?"

 

The police pretty much need a warrant to get into your trunk unless you have a blatant violation in plain sight (and even then maybe not without a warrant).

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Good thing I didn't get stopped coming back with 1500 rounds of .45ACP in my backseat today................

[BRaptor 68]

The police CANNOT (legally) search your vehicle if the only thing you did wrong was break a traffic law. One of the states in the mid west (I think it was Indiana) passed a law like this in the 90's and it was stuck down by SCOTUS. I remember the justices asking the attorney defending this case "what further evidence of speeding are you expecting to find by searching a persons car?"

 

The police pretty much need a warrant to get into your trunk unless you have a blatant violation in plain sight (and even then maybe not without a warrant).

 

I respectfully disagree. Unfortunately, I don't have time to write a memo on the subject.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Glad to see this thread has devolved into some nice, novel LEO bashing.

 

I'll toss in my two cents.

 

First, if a LEO has probable cause, they don't need a warrant to search your car. PERIOD. That's been US Supreme Court law for going on at least 90 years, good luck getting it changed.

 

There's even some argument that the police shouldn't need probable cause to "pat down" you and your car during an interaction if they have reasonable suspicion that you are involved in a crime.

 

Plus, if you've been pulled over for an infraction, you can be arrested and you and your car will be searched and inventoried. (even for speeding, running a stoplight or changing lanes without signaling. It's officer discretion to issue a summons for an infraction. They are within their right to arrest you for violating ANY law.)

 

So, this entire discussion is an exercise in futility, because if an officer tells you he's going to search your car, there's not a damn thing you can do, unless you want to be charged with assaulting an officer. You sit there and you take it. Maybe you can mouth-off a bit, but you cannot physically stop him. The only time this probable cause, reasonable suspicion, warrant discussion occurs is in the courtroom...LONG after you've been arrested and searched.

 

The recourse that you have if you feel you've been unlawfully detained and searched is to sue the police in civil court for violating your US Const. rights. But, again, that occurs LONG after the encounter.

 

So, what do you do? Don't be an a**, don't consent to a search and don't talk. Much discussion beyond that is academic.

 

 

Any cop can come up with a BS excuse for "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion". There is also my favorite charge which can be anything from the cop doesn't like you or he's having a bad day of...."resisting arrest"

[The Dark Knight 11]

or why allow a fact (Like the one that the NJSP uniform was designed in 1926..before the NSDAP came into existance) Spoil a good story.....

 

 

Yeah, you have a good point. Personally I'm a huge fan of the old Navajo basketball teams so I'm just going to start wearing a swastika jersey around. I know some jerks kinda killed the image of the swastika back in the 40's but hey, it was around before that and I'm sure people will understand.

 

Ever seen Clerks 2 where Randall tries to "take back" the term "porch monkey" because his grandma used to call him that?

 

[The Dark Knight 11]

One of the states in the mid west (I think it was Indiana) passed a law like this in the 90's and it was stuck down by SCOTUS.

 

Another case likely headed to the Supreme Court in the next few years in Massachusetts new law that specifically makes "the smell of marijuana" no longer probable cause for search of a vehicle. Plenty of people under the age of 30 can tell you all about how often they meet an officer with an excellent nose despite the fact that they don't even smoke so much as a cigarette.

[Recon Racoon 49]

You can break this down how ever you want to, but to me its pretty clear.

 

Reasonable Suspicion, as defined by USLegal.com:

 

Reasonable suspicion has been defined by the U.S. Supreme Court as “the sort of common-sense conclusion about human behavior upon which practical people . . . are entitled to rely.” Further, it has defined reasonable suspicion as requiring only something more than an “unarticulated hunch.” It requires facts or circumstances that give rise to more than a bare, imaginary, or purely conjectural suspicion.

 

cite: USLegal.com Definition

 

As far as I can tell, Reasonable Suspicion falls down to physical evidence such as open containers of alcohol, drug paraphernalia, prohibited items by state or federal law (i.e hand grenades, explosives, amount of drugs that equal trafficking size etc). If the officer smells marijuana and sees a roach clip in the ashtray, viola Reasonable Suspicion to detain you to search your vehicle. If, during the search he/she finds marijuana you can charged with misdemeanor drug possession, or felony drug possession if its a large quantity, but the detaining officer can only search any areas in PLAIN view. That means anything in the trunk, glove box, or center console are safe unless he produces a warrant. Any evidence gained by searching restricted areas without a warrant is dismissible evidence in court.

 

Now you may wonder, what if he wants to search you during a traffic stop? Easy. Ask if its a question or an order. He can't order you to allow him to search your car unless you are detained. IF he says its a question all you simply have to say is "I do not consent to any searches." By law, unless Reasonable Suspicion has been established, he cannot search you or your vehicle. If he claims Reasonable Suspicion and comes up with nothing the case will be dismissed because Burden of Proof could not be put forward.

 

If he detains you for no reason during a traffic stop and refuses to give a reason why it falls under 4th and 8th Amendment violations.

 

4th:

 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

8th:

 

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

 

8th could be a stretch, but if you are detained longer than the maximum allowable time then it falls under cruel and unusual punishment, especially because it happened during a traffic stop. And it would be even crueler if he came up with no evidence yet detained you longer, and charged you with an imaginary crime for which he has no burden of proof.

 

He simply cannot detain you during a traffic stop unless Reasonable suspicion is established, and he finds there is, was, or will be a crime be, was, or would be committed. There are safe guards against their occasional abuse of power. Take advantage of them.

[Babaganoosh 192]

You can break this down how ever you want to, but to me its pretty clear.

 

Reasonable Suspicion, as defined by USLegal.com:

 

Reasonable suspicion has been defined by the U.S. Supreme Court as “the sort of common-sense conclusion about human behavior upon which practical people . . . are entitled to rely.” Further, it has defined reasonable suspicion as requiring only something more than an “unarticulated hunch.” It requires facts or circumstances that give rise to more than a bare, imaginary, or purely conjectural suspicion.

 

cite: USLegal.com Definition

 

As far as I can tell, Reasonable Suspicion falls down to physical evidence such as open containers of alcohol, drug paraphernalia, prohibited items by state or federal law (i.e hand grenades, explosives, amount of drugs that equal trafficking size etc). If the officer smells marijuana and sees a roach clip in the ashtray, viola Reasonable Suspicion to detain you to search your vehicle. If, during the search he/she finds marijuana you can charged with misdemeanor drug possession, or felony drug possession if its a large quantity, but the detaining officer can only search any areas in PLAIN view. That means anything in the trunk, glove box, or center console are safe unless he produces a warrant. Any evidence gained by searching restricted areas without a warrant is dismissible evidence in court.

 

Now you may wonder, what if he wants to search you during a traffic stop? Easy. Ask if its a question or an order. He can't order you to allow him to search your car unless you are detained. IF he says its a question all you simply have to say is "I do not consent to any searches." By law, unless Reasonable Suspicion has been established, he cannot search you or your vehicle. If he claims Reasonable Suspicion and comes up with nothing the case will be dismissed because Burden of Proof could not be put forward.

 

If he detains you for no reason during a traffic stop and refuses to give a reason why it falls under 4th and 8th Amendment violations.

 

4th:

 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

8th:

 

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

 

8th could be a stretch, but if you are detained longer than the maximum allowable time then it falls under cruel and unusual punishment, especially because it happened during a traffic stop. And it would be even crueler if he came up with no evidence yet detained you longer, and charged you with an imaginary crime for which he has no burden of proof.

 

He simply cannot detain you during a traffic stop unless Reasonable suspicion is established, and he finds there is, was, or will be a crime be, was, or would be committed. There are safe guards against their occasional abuse of power. Take advantage of them.

 

That's all well and good but does nothing for you if some cop decides to go ahead and bust your balls on the side of the road. He has a gun, a badge, a taser?, pepper spray, a radio to call for backup, and the power to arrest you. What do you have in your corner? You try to argue your rights on the side of the road it's not gonna matter. He's gonna bust your balls more for annoying him. Not much you can do when your sitting in the back of a squad car handcuffed. Not to mention he knows even if he is wrong, nothing will happen to him for royally screwing up your day, and potentially your year.