The NJ2AS Sues The State Police

[njpilot 671]

This argument (for getting rid of the permit system) really needs to be presented to the general public as a grossly wasteful, needless, redundant, antiquated system that is cost tax payers a small fortune. We need to express that this system is a waste of precious police resources in tough economic times. Your town is losing a lot of money processing these applications, the $18 goes to the NJSP, the town only gets the $2 per permit, which is not even close to cost. Once NICS went on line, this system became totally obsolete.

 

Most non gun owners aren't going to care about the hoops they make us jump though, but they will understand the waste involved when we explain that these backround checks are being done at least twice for each purchase.

 

 

I think we need to be careful. If such things were suggested, they very well may come back with, "you're right, it takes too much of our resources, therefore we will only handle firearm paperwork one day a month. You're right, we are losing money, therefore we will need to increase fees for our services."

 

You never know how they will go around your arguement.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I think we need to be careful. If such things were suggested, they very well may come back with, "you're right, it takes too much of our resources, therefore we will only handle firearm paperwork one day a month. You're right, we are losing money, therefore we will need to increase fees for our services."

 

You never know how they will go around your arguement.

 

Hmmmm... Good point. We should tread carefully.

[Bob B 103]

^^^ Of course, the argument that something can be made worse if we bring attention to it can be used for everything. The unfortunate truth is that those that have the opposite view of ours are already trying to do that. Two years ago, at the Firearms Task Force public hearing, Bryan Miller suggested that fees be raised. Silence is taken as a lack of interest in the issue and makes it easier for our opposition to push their ideas. As they say in the Marines, "Anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing."

[halbautomatisch 60]

I think we need to be careful. If such things were suggested, they very well may come back with, "you're right, it takes too much of our resources, therefore we will only handle firearm paperwork one day a month. You're right, we are losing money, therefore we will need to increase fees for our services."

 

You never know how they will go around your arguement.

I see your point, but raising fees is still not going to free up police to do actual needed police work. If they tried to charge actual cost they would start to run into the same problem NYC had with their excessive fees, which they are now being forced to roll back.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Actually, we have. I don't want to give away too much of the strategy at this point, only because we want to develop a focus that will accomplish this goal in the most efficient manner possible. As you might imagine, there are a number of possible ways to initiate this approach. Our legislative committee chair has come up with a unique idea that is likely to result in a great deal of cooperation from within the sector you refer to. At this point in time, our resources are completely focused on our current lawsuit against the NJ Division of State Police. This case should be decided relatively quickly. In the meantime, we are developing plans for the next strike. The approach you suggested is definitely being strongly considered.

 

If you are in a position to help us with any portion of this, please contact me directly in a PM here or at our forum on www.nj2as.com or email me at [email protected]. We can use all the help we can get. Your suggestion is excellent. We need people like you to both make suggestions, and help us to implement them. Anything you can do would be GREATLY appreciated. One of the things we desperately need is someone who is willing to act as a liaison with the retailers, and FFL's. We are preparing the message, but we are going to need a committee of people to deliver and promote it, and to coordinate the inevitable activities associated with directing it on an ongoing basis. It obviously takes some organizational ability and some leadership skills, but keep in mind, only a few short months ago, I was a retired Computer Consultant. Believe me, if I can do this, I am certain that many people can.

 

Please let me know if you are interested, and thank you for suggesting this.

PM sent

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

PM sent

 

Got it, thanks.

[siderman 1,138]

As far as reaching out to the public about the wastefullness of redundant red tape, throw a little chum in the water. Lots of big circulation newspapers with the editorial pages that publish open letters and its free. Not sure how much censorship the editors will enforce or even a possible backlash from the sheep but it is an optional forum to get the word out there. But I do understand the relevence of "timing is everything" so it(if) should be done strategically.

[mrjam2jab 9]

I think we need to be careful. If such things were suggested, they very well may come back with, "you're right, it takes too much of our resources, therefore we will only handle firearm paperwork one day a month. You're right, we are losing money, therefore we will need to increase fees for our services."

 

You never know how they will go around your arguement.

 

 

Do PDs have a gun permit specific clerk?...as in that is all that that person does? If not, then they are paying that person to be there anyway...gun permits are just part of the job.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Do PDs have a gun permit specific clerk?...as in that is all that that person does? If not, then they are paying that person to be there anyway...gun permits are just part of the job.

 

From what I can tell, it varies. Some PDs have a dedicated person. Often that person is only part time, or only handles permits on certain days. There is no consistency from town to town, which is PART of the problem. It might be better if it were simply centralized at the State level, they can do a NICS check, and you could simply go to the local PD to prove your identity and pick up your permit from whoever happens to be on duty. Why we have this arcane and convoluted procedure is anyone's guess.

[KpdPipes 388]

Do PDs have a gun permit specific clerk?...as in that is all that that person does? If not, then they are paying that person to be there anyway...gun permits are just part of the job.

 

In most parts permits are an additional duty to someone who already has a full plate..especially in smaller departments. If you have only 2 or 3 detectives, with a full caseload, Gun permits are going to be a low priority for them, it ends up being an "Ill get to it when I get to it" Deal. Expect that to get worse now as well. PD's across the state are cutting back numbers. As layoffs and retirements attrit departments, you'll see more and more guys getting pulled out of Office jobs and back on the road..causing THEIR workload to fall on the shoulders of the guys left inside.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

In most parts permits are an additional duty to someone who already has a full plate..especially in smaller departments. If you have only 2 or 3 detectives, with a full caseload, Gun permits are going to be a low priority for them, it ends up being an "Ill get to it when I get to it" Deal. Expect that to get worse now as well. PD's across the state are cutting back numbers. As layoffs and retirements attrit departments, you'll see more and more guys getting pulled out of Office jobs and back on the road..causing THEIR workload to fall on the shoulders of the guys left inside.

 

Even more reason to centralize and streamline the process. Now that there is NICS, there is no real need for all this nonsense. We will probably have to hold their feet to the fire before SOMEONE in the State finally accepts the fact that this is NOT the correct way to process these applications.

[KpdPipes 388]

Even more reason to centralize and streamline the process. Now that there is NICS, there is no real need for all this nonsense. We will probably have to hold their feet to the fire before SOMEONE in the State finally accepts the fact that this is NOT the correct way to process these applications.

 

 

I agree completely. the problem is that too many of the state's politicians, Including the Governor, have tied themselves politically to Anti-gun stances. It's a lot like the Drug War.....after decades of saying No, No, Never, they'll look like fools if they say.."OK we were wrong we need to go in another direction". politicians would rather screw everyone over rather than look Stupid. I've been saying for years...and called a "Defeatinst' amongst other things for pointing this out. The ONLY WAY NJ is going to change its laws is if they are FORCED to do so through the Courts...Specifically the US Supreme Court..and even then, they will drag their feet, and kick and scream rather than do whats right. Look at both DC and Chicago...BOTH of them are playing word games with their laws just to protest being forced to do away with their bans. What REALLY needs to happen, is someone like Daley, or the mayor of DC to get arrested for Contempt..although i dont even know if there IS a mechanism for doing that on the SCOTUS level.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I agree completely. the problem is that too many of the state's politicians, Including the Governor, have tied themselves politically to Anti-gun stances. It's a lot like the Drug War.....after decades of saying No, No, Never, they'll look like fools if they say.."OK we were wrong we need to go in another direction". politicians would rather screw everyone over rather than look Stupid. I've been saying for years...and called a "Defeatinst' amongst other things for pointing this out. The ONLY WAY NJ is going to change its laws is if they are FORCED to do so through the Courts...Specifically the US Supreme Court..and even then, they will drag their feet, and kick and scream rather than do whats right. Look at both DC and Chicago...BOTH of them are playing word games with their laws just to protest being forced to do away with their bans. What REALLY needs to happen, is someone like Daley, or the mayor of DC to get arrested for Contempt..although i dont even know if there IS a mechanism for doing that on the SCOTUS level.

 

Well, I for one totally get your frustration. We may spin our wheels a bit, but I think we can make an impact. Back in the day, New Jersey was just as FREE as any other state with regard to gun ownership. It was a slow process getting to where we are now. It won't surprise me if it takes a while to get all our freedoms back, but the alternative is not to fight. That isn't much of an alternative. I know that right now we are no more bother than a bunch of pesky mosquitoes, but we are gaining in strength daily. If you have ever been bit by a hornet, you know how unpleasant that can be. We just need to keep on building our ability to deliver a consistent series of nasty stings. Eventually, they will get the point (pun intended).

[JackDaWack 2,895]

The whole who files the permit issue is null. Like said, there are plenty of officers at most if not all PD's who can take time out of there day to file them.. Hell, some of the worst towns have 3 OT officers managing a road detour due to construction. My town has 3 dedicated officers to the firearms unit, and my guess is they each handle a little here and a little there, and they get everything done on time in 30days. Like said this is just part of there job, they should be able to find time to do it, and its not like everyday they get people applying, or like its some huge task that takes hours to complete.

The state has purposely made the process more difficult then it should be. For instance like mentioned in another thread. The Dep. of Edu has an online system that allows you to archive your file for a BG Check, the state takes care of the leg work and sends out the approval letter to where ever you want it to go...they have codes for municipalities.. Your PD would have to do nothing on it's end in regards to BG checks but wait for the confirmation, and you can even check online when you get approved!!

Now of course they wont be able to BS you with that type of system.

 

The idea in a law suit like this is not to just complain about of F'ed the system is and force it to change... but rather have solutions to the problem that will benefit all. By cutting the work the PD's have to do will gain there interest, by implementing a electronic system that allows you to apply keeps **** organized and people pleased.. basically we need to cut out the middle man.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

The whole who files the permit issue is null. Like said, there are plenty of officers at most if not all PD's who can take time out of there day to file them.. Hell, some of the worst towns have 3 OT officers managing a road detour due to construction. My town has 3 dedicated officers to the firearms unit, and my guess is they each handle a little here and a little there, and they get everything done on time in 30days. Like said this is just part of there job, they should be able to find time to do it, and its not like everyday they get people applying, or like its some huge task that takes hours to complete.

The state has purposely made the process more difficult then it should be. For instance like mentioned in another thread. The Dep. of Edu has an online system that allows you to archive your file for a BG Check, the state takes care of the leg work and sends out the approval letter to where ever you want it to go...they have codes for municipalities.. Your PD would have to do nothing on it's end in regards to BG checks but wait for the confirmation, and you can even check online when you get approved!!

Now of course they wont be able to BS you with that type of system.

 

The idea in a law suit like this is not to just complain about of F'ed the system is and force it to change... but rather have solutions to the problem that will benefit all. By cutting the work the PD's have to do will gain there interest, by implementing a electronic system that allows you to apply keeps **** organized and people pleased.. basically we need to cut out the middle man.

 

Understood, but keep in mind this lawsuit is NOT a complaint, it is a DEMAND for access to the Firearms Application Guide Book. It is just a first step toward getting the information we need to go after the worst offending towns. They are not going to change the system just because we ask them. Operation Establish Compliance is all about building a fund that puts some teeth behind our bite. The state knows that they could process these applications more cost effectively and more efficiently. They currently have no motivation to do so. After all, it is only taxpayer money that they are wasting, and it will only result in more guns in the hands of the people. They have no interest in promoting either outcome. We intend to provide them with the motivation in whatever ways we can.

[KpdPipes 388]

Well, I for one totally get your frustration. We may spin our wheels a bit, but I think we can make an impact. Back in the day, New Jersey was just as FREE as any other state with regard to gun ownership. It was a slow process getting to where we are now. It won't surprise me if it takes a while to get all our freedoms back, but the alternative is not to fight. That isn't much of an alternative. I know that right now we are no more bother than a bunch of pesky mosquitoes, but we are gaining in strength daily. If you have ever been bit by a hornet, you know how unpleasant that can be. We just need to keep on building our ability to deliver a consistent series of nasty stings. Eventually, they will get the point (pun intended).

 

Again..i am not saying we Dont Fight..what i'm saying is dont expect it to be "One" fight..it will be fight after fight. What's most furstrating is the newbies who coem in and tell those of us who have BEEN fighting this for decades how we dont know what we're doing.

[njpilot 671]

^^^ Of course, the argument that something can be made worse if we bring attention to it can be used for everything. The unfortunate truth is that those that have the opposite view of ours are already trying to do that. Two years ago, at the Firearms Task Force public hearing, Bryan Miller suggested that fees be raised. Silence is taken as a lack of interest in the issue and makes it easier for our opposition to push their ideas. As they say in the Marines, "Anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing."

 

I hear what you're saying Bob and I'm not suggesting we do nothing, but I'm a little too cynical to think that the crooks and anti-gunners in Trenton will simply think "Hey, yeah, we can save money by getting rid of the permit system." I believe that if anything, they would use those reasons to make it more difficult and costly for us.

 

Just my opinon. I don't have a whole lot of faith in anyone in Trenton to do what is right.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Again..i am not saying we Dont Fight..what i'm saying is dont expect it to be "One" fight..it will be fight after fight. What's most furstrating is the newbies who coem in and tell those of us who have BEEN fighting this for decades how we dont know what we're doing.

 

Got ya! :-)

 

Yeah, we don't worry about that. We are realistic about what it is going to take. If we weren't when we started, we are now. :-)

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I hear what you're saying Bob and I'm not suggesting we do nothing, but I'm a little too cynical to think that the crooks and anti-gunners in Trenton will simply think "Hey, yeah, we can save money by getting rid of the permit system." I believe that if anything, they would use those reasons to make it more difficult and costly for us.

 

Just my opinon. I don't have a whole lot of faith in anyone in Trenton to do what is right.

 

I think anyone who has been in New Jersey more than 30 seconds is entitled to be cynical. One of the reasons I keep asking for ideas, comments and suggestions is that there may be a better way for us to accomplish our mission that we might be missing. We can always change course if it makes sense, but before you can determine a true course you have to launch your craft and set sail. The NJ2AS is a fairly new grassroots organization and I am sure that we have a lot to learn, but we have been able to gather some decent momentum. We have a plan, but we are also learning as we go along. We will definitely need to make adjustments as we continue in this fight, and we will make them. For now, I hope everyone will agree that we are heading in the right direction. The more hands we get, the better we will do. So, for those who haven't already done so, please consider jumping on board. We can use your help.

 

For all of you who have been commenting, we are taking your comments in the positive spirit in which they were intended. I just want to assure everyone that our positive attitude is not due to looking through rose colored glasses. We just sincerely believe that we can make things better, and we will. ESPECIALLY with all the help we have been getting from you guys.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Understood, but keep in mind this lawsuit is NOT a complaint, it is a DEMAND for access to the Firearms Application Guide Book. It is just a first step toward getting the information we need to go after the worst offending towns. They are not going to change the system just because we ask them. Operation Establish Compliance is all about building a fund that puts some teeth behind our bite. The state knows that they could process these applications more cost effectively and more efficiently. They currently have no motivation to do so. After all, it is only taxpayer money that they are wasting, and it will only result in more guns in the hands of the people. They have no interest in promoting either outcome. We intend to provide them with the motivation in whatever ways we can.

Of course, just giving some info on how other state departments handle their business... god only knows what this little black book will reveal..

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Of course, just giving some info on how other state departments handle their business... god only knows what this little black book will reveal..

 

My guess is that unless the almighty is well versed in political doublespeak, she doesn't stand a chance. :-)

(I am married - I KNOW which side of the bread *MY* butter is on) - <snicker>