Help deciding

[johna hex 1]

What's up NJ..... I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out should I convert a saiga or buy a gp175? Im so lost... Can you guys give me a hand in figuring this out? Thanks

[vjf915 456]

A GP75? There's a difference between the two, and that is the Saiga comes from the factory without a pistol grip. You'll need to convert it yourself. This involves both physical work (filing, drilling, and painting) and mental work (922r compliance). You'll get the rifle you want out of a Saiga, but it's more work. I personally chose the Saiga, and I don't regret it one bit.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

GP75 is no work to get the same result for less cost. They are built on top of the line NDS recievers. It has things that you cant easily do on a normal saiga conversion either. Cleaning rod/ cleaning rod holder, the slant brake comes on it, and a standard lower handguard retainer to name a few.

 

simple decision IMHO

 

 

...and vlad, I give you 1 hour to get in here screaming "SAIGA!" or I will be disappointed! LOL

[vladtepes 1,060]

was busy building Mustang.. but he already knows my 2cents.. lol

[lunker 274]

I think you will need to have your FFL get out his grinding wheel though. The GP75 comes with a bayonet lug if I'm not mistaken. That's a no brainer though.

[tuktuk 16]

Well how much can you get them for? How much money do u want to spend ?

Do you care if its a Russian build or let's say romanian ?

do you have time, space , tools, basic tech skills to do saiga conversion?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Why waste time rebuilding a Saiga to suit your needs? Just get a WASR-10/63 legalized for NJ. Then modify that as you see fit.

[vjf915 456]

Why waste time rebuilding a Saiga to suit your needs? Just get a WASR-10/63 legalized for NJ. Then modify that as you see fit.

Why buy an inferior product and replace the current parts, when you can build it to your exact specifications? I hardly consider it a "waste" of time when the end result doesn't take any longer, you get EXACTLY what you want, have a superior product, and you know it inside and out.....for roughly the same amount of money.

[lunker 274]

Why buy an inferior product and replace the current parts, when you can build it to your exact specifications? I hardly consider it a "waste" of time when the end result doesn't take any longer, you get EXACTLY what you want, have a superior product, and you know it inside and out.....for roughly the same amount of money.

 

+1.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Why buy an inferior product and replace the current parts, when you can build it to your exact specifications? I hardly consider it a "waste" of time when the end result doesn't take any longer, you get EXACTLY what you want, have a superior product, and you know it inside and out.....for roughly the same amount of money.

 

Inferior how? I understand the earlier WASR-10s had their quality issues from CAI, but most of those appear to have been resolved. At least in the two I bought from JetAGENT and PK90. The WASR-10s also come with all the standard AK goodies: wood furniture (which can be fixed up), Tapco G2 triggers (best one on the market for AKs), and chrome lined barrels. Want to change the furniture? Easy peasy, since it's a standard AKM setup, all aftermarket parts fit. As for price... FFL/xfer fees aside, you can get a WASR-10 for what? About $480? $500?

 

A Saiga costs what? $375-400 out of the box? Want a Tapco G2? Add it for $32... Want traditional wood furniture? You can prolly get some from Ironwood designs for what? $90? That's not even including the shipping costs of the extra items. Wait, does your Saiga only take surefire mags? Guess you need a bullet guide! Add $20 (depending on what model you have). At that point ($497-542 depending on what you add), you've gone through a lot of effort just to build what is essentially a WASR-10 with nicer wood.

 

I also get that Saigas are renown to be the "better" AK because they are Russian made and have mag dimples, but do they really have any drastic advantages over their cheaper WASR cousins to justify the added after-purchase work?

 

Not saying you're wrong, but if the OP is looking for a cheap no nonsense build, the WASR-10 is it for the price. If he wants to mess around with an AK and customize it, then the Saiga may be best. If he has the coin and wants the best AK you can buy... Arsenal is the way to go. Just giving the OP some options here.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Get the WASR-10, you won't look back.

[The_Matrix 105]

My advice. Save your pennies and get an arsenal model. You will not regret it. It is BEAUTIFUL!!!!!! In and out!!!!

[johna hex 1]

I think im going saiga.. the main reason is i would like to fully customize the gun and would like to start on a reliable platform. The only thing i like on the GP75 is the G2 Trigger but i heard bad things about that. Thanks Guys you helped out alot

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I think im going saiga.. the main reason is i would like to fully customize the gun and would like to start on a reliable platform. The only thing i like on the GP75 is the G2 Trigger but i heard bad things about that. Thanks Guys you helped out alot

 

Really? Bad things about the G2? Like what?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Inferior how? I understand the earlier WASR-10s had their quality issues from CAI, but most of those appear to have been resolved. At least in the two I bought from JetAGENT and PK90. The WASR-10s also come with all the standard AK goodies: wood furniture (which can be fixed up), Tapco G2 triggers (best one on the market for AKs), and chrome lined barrels. Want to change the furniture? Easy peasy, since it's a standard AKM setup, all aftermarket parts fit. As for price... FFL/xfer fees aside, you can get a WASR-10 for what? About $480? $500?

 

A Saiga costs what? $375-400 out of the box? Want a Tapco G2? Add it for $32... Want traditional wood furniture? You can prolly get some from Ironwood designs for what? $90? That's not even including the shipping costs of the extra items. Wait, does your Saiga only take surefire mags? Guess you need a bullet guide! Add $20 (depending on what model you have). At that point ($497-542 depending on what you add), you've gone through a lot of effort just to build what is essentially a WASR-10 with nicer wood.

 

I also get that Saigas are renown to be the "better" AK because they are Russian made and have mag dimples, but do they really have any drastic advantages over their cheaper WASR cousins to justify the added after-purchase work?

 

Not saying you're wrong, but if the OP is looking for a cheap no nonsense build, the WASR-10 is it for the price. If he wants to mess around with an AK and customize it, then the Saiga may be best. If he has the coin and wants the best AK you can buy... Arsenal is the way to go. Just giving the OP some options here.

 

I never had to bang parts of my Saiga with a hammer to get them to fit.. but hey.. who needs a dust cover that is actually made correctly to fit the gun...

 

the truth of the matter is for most people.. an AK is an AK.. and in that regard.. an AR is an AR.. and a shotgun is a shotgun..

 

you can say that an AK is an AK.. and in that regard.. we can agree.. but for you to imply that a WASR is "the same" as a Saiga.. at that point you are simply misleading people.. having handled a WASR just recently I can tell you the first thing that jumped out at me was the god awful action of the gun.. I am sure once it is broken it the smoothness will improve.. another thing that Saigas have that some AK variants do not have is a chrome lined barrel.. I am sure your WASRs have all been solid performers.. and I am sure you have owned several.. and that is helping you draw that conclusion... but humor me and google "wasr problems" and then read the first few pages.. then do the same with Saiga..

 

but the reality is.. I am wasting my breath.. because you are obviously the expert.. having so much experience in regards to this particular weapon system.. so I will not waste your time....

 

 

to the original poster.. you should not listen to ANY of us (especially those with limited experience)...there are plenty of AK platforms out there that work well (even some of those goofy heavy milled ones.. LOL) but at the end of the day it is what you want..

 

good luck with the purchase..

[vladtepes 1,060]

Really? Bad things about the G2? Like what?

 

 

some people have complained that the trigger is so smooth they experience an almost "bump fire" effect.. that is about the only complaint I have ever heard..

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

I love the super smooth easy to bump fire G2

 

The GP75 is a step above a WASR, and its on a NDS reciever which is top of the top as far as recievers go. Plus its dimpled, which is another plus over the WASR

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I never had to bang parts of my Saiga with a hammer to get them to fit.. but hey.. who needs a dust cover that is actually made correctly to fit the gun...

 

If a dented dust cover (which was replaced quickly for free) is the only fault in a $460 AK, then I'll take it.

 

I'd rather have that instead of spending time and money replacing/adding parts (trigger, furniture, bullet guide) that the WASR-10 apparently already does. But that was part of my selection process. Not a fault of either rifles' design.

 

WASRs are imported and modded here... Saigas need to be shipped in their config to be sold legally.

 

the truth of the matter is for most people.. an AK is an AK.. and in that regard.. an AR is an AR.. and a shotgun is a shotgun..

 

you can say that an AK is an AK.. and in that regard.. we can agree.. but for you to imply that a WASR is "the same" as a Saiga.. at that point you are simply misleading people.. having handled a WASR just recently I can tell you the first thing that jumped out at me was the god awful action of the gun.. I am sure once it is broken it the smoothness will improve.. another thing that Saigas have that some AK variants do not have is a chrome lined barrel.. I am sure your WASRs have all been solid performers.. and I am sure you have owned several.. and that is helping you draw that conclusion... but humor me and google "wasr problems" and then read the first few pages.. then do the same with Saiga..

 

WASR-10s do come with Chrome Lined Barrels, so that point is moot. (My link)

 

As for the 'rough' action, what does it matter as long as it cycles properly? I too handled both rifles side by side (PK90's store), and guess what? The Saigas trigger was crap and took forever to break. So one can say the similar things about both rifles.

 

As for WASR problems, I already pointed out that they have had them in the past, but the QC at Century seems to be markedly improved. Reports of canted sights in newer rifles have diminished, as have complaints of improperly cut magwells, and trigger slap (fixed with the G2).

 

but the reality is.. I am wasting my breath.. because you are obviously the expert.. having so much experience in regards to this particular weapon system.. so I will not waste your time....

 

Sorry to question you and inject an opposing viewpoint. *rolls eyes*

 

I did the same research that you did and came up with a different conclusion. I'm just passing on my thoughts on the WASR-10 series and why they may work for the OP if he wants a rifle that is ready to go, out of the box.

 

I'll admit, I'm still new to the AK platform, but I was just curious to know why the OP is immediately dissuaded from owning a WASR (inferior junk) and persuaded to own a sporting rifle which would require some decent upgrades off the bat.

 

to the original poster.. you should not listen to ANY of us (especially those with limited experience)...there are plenty of AK platforms out there that work well (even some of those goofy heavy milled ones.. LOL) but at the end of the day it is what you want..

 

good luck with the purchase..

 

Agreed. Like I said, there are plenty of options there... WASRs, Saigas, Arsenals, etc.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I love the super smooth easy to bump fire G2

 

The GP75 is a step above a WASR, and its on a NDS reciever which is top of the top as far as recievers go. Plus its dimpled, which is another plus over the WASR

 

 

"if the gun shoots a couple times.. it is ok.. it just means you are pulling the trigger more than once.. that is normal.. you will be ok.."

[vjf915 456]

I've never had ANY problems with my G2. And nobody said that stock for stock the Saiga was nicer. I absolutely HATED my Saiga rifle in the stock configuration. The point is, that for roughly the same cost of a WASR, you can build the rifle to your exact specifications, and know the rifle inside and out. I can take out every single moving part in my Saiga, and put it back together without directions or help. Can you do that with your WASR?

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

I've never had ANY problems with my G2. And nobody said that stock for stock the Saiga was nicer. I absolutely HATED my Saiga rifle in the stock configuration. The point is, that for roughly the same cost of a WASR, you can build the rifle to your exact specifications, and know the rifle inside and out. I can take out every single moving part in my Saiga, and put it back together without directions or help. Can you do that with your WASR?

 

 

Roughly the same cost? Wasr is 500 all said and done. A saiga is 450 or so. How do you get a saiga pistol gripped, with new furniture etc etc for only $50 more?

 

Also, yes, I can take my non-saigas apart %100. How far do you take your saigas apart anyways? You arent unriveting the trunnions and pressing out the barrel or anything like that...

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Roughly the same cost? Wasr is 500 all said and done. A saiga is 450 or so. How do you get a saiga pistol gripped, with new furniture etc etc for only $50 more?

 

Also, yes, I can take my non-saigas apart %100. How far do you take your saigas apart anyways? You arent unriveting the trunnions and pressing out the barrel or anything like that...

 

That's the thing that got me when looking to build a Saiga, there is no way you can build your Saiga into what a WASR-10 is without costing more than a WASR-10... If folks want to do it, fine by me. But for an AK-pattern rifle, it really didn't make sense to me.

[lunker 274]

That's the thing that got me when looking to build a Saiga, there is no way you can build your Saiga into what a WASR-10 is without costing more than a WASR-10... If folks want to do it, fine by me. But for an AK-pattern rifle, it really didn't make sense to me.

 

It probably comes down to how much you like to tinker. AK Clones appeal to me in the same way that Glocks do. The average Joe can do basic assembly, repair, parts swaps, smithing, etc on them.

[vjf915 456]

Roughly the same cost? Wasr is 500 all said and done. A saiga is 450 or so. How do you get a saiga pistol gripped, with new furniture etc etc for only $50 more?

Why waste time rebuilding a Saiga to suit your needs? Just get a WASR-10/63 legalized for NJ. Then modify that as you see fit.

Because this whole debate, I was basing it off his first post where he said "modify it as you see fit". He wasn't referring to keeping it stock. I built my Saiga (rifle, conversion, two different pistol grips, 3 good quality mags, sling, and sling mount) all for $600. For that $600, I got mags that fit, a straight dust cover, a quality rifle that has a more reliable history than WASR does, and a dust cover that fits That's definitely worth $100 to me.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Because this whole debate, I was basing it off his first post where he said "modify it as you see fit". He wasn't referring to keeping it stock. I built my Saiga (rifle, conversion, two different pistol grips, 3 good quality mags, sling, and sling mount) all for $600. For that $600, I got mags that fit, a straight dust cover, a quality rifle that has a more reliable history than WASR does, and a dust cover that fits That's definitely worth $100 to me.

 

Like I said earlier, it worked out for you. In the end, I only spent $460 for a WASR-10 that didn't need any mods and worked out of the box. Sure, 1 of 8 magazines had a tight fit (which it was for both my WASR's, so that's the magazines fault, not the rifle). Sure the dust cover needed a a few love taps with a hammer to fit right (which is moot since Century sent me a new one for free).

 

To me, they're AK-47s... they're all pretty much the same. This isn't the AR world where an out of spec or poorly assembled component means that the rifle will not shoot. You can't hammer an AR-15 and make it work, lol. That's the appeal of the platform.

 

I dunno. I knew all the risks of buying a WASR-10... but since 2008, they've had a pretty good record. Not to mention, no problems you can't easily detect when at the FFL prior to buying it. They got a bad wrap because they were the bottom of the barrel in AK designs for awhile, but now they're much better.

 

Did I mention it was pretty much good to go out of the box? No need to convert anything.

[vjf915 456]

Hey if that worked out for you, then that's great. I just have a different view on things. I got EXACTLY the rifle I wanted. If the WASR was EXACTLY what you wanted, not a detail off, then you scored. I know the internals of my rifle. These are benefits that are worth it to me. I'm not saying it's by all means the RIGHT solution for everyone, but it was for me and will be for some others.

[vladtepes 1,060]

This isn't the AR world where an out of spec or poorly assembled component means that the rifle will not shoot.

 

there was a series of poorly assembled 74s (and even a couple Saigas in 5.45) that were wrong and making just about every round key hole..

 

I had a friend blow the bullet guide install and break a tap off in the receiver...

 

not looking for any kind of argument here.. but there are PLENTY of AK horror stories out there..

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

there was a series of poorly assembled 74s (and even a couple Saigas in 5.45) that were wrong and making just about every round key hole..

 

I had a friend blow the bullet guide install and break a tap off in the receiver...

 

not looking for any kind of argument here.. but there are PLENTY of AK horror stories out there..

 

Those were the century Tantals that had the keyholing issues, just the tantals. They were US barrels and the bore diameter was to 556 spec not 545. They were made by green mountain, not surplus barrels....

Breaking a tap off isnt the rifles fault, its the idiot turning the taps fault. You can break a tap off in an AR too, or a Ferrari...

 

Now...if your friend had a WASR and not a saiga he wouldnt have to be tapping the trunnion in the first place!

[DevsAdvocate 112]

there was a series of poorly assembled 74s (and even a couple Saigas in 5.45) that were wrong and making just about every round key hole..

 

I had a friend blow the bullet guide install and break a tap off in the receiver...

 

not looking for any kind of argument here.. but there are PLENTY of AK horror stories out there..

 

US Made barrels were the issue there I think... someone on ARFCOM said it best: "we can land on the moon, but apparently, we can't re-create a proper -47/-74 barrel"

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Hey if that worked out for you, then that's great. I just have a different view on things. I got EXACTLY the rifle I wanted. If the WASR was EXACTLY what you wanted, not a detail off, then you scored. I know the internals of my rifle. These are benefits that are worth it to me. I'm not saying it's by all means the RIGHT solution for everyone, but it was for me and will be for some others.

 

That's great too. This whole thing started because the OP asked for AK options, and out of the blue comes the whole 'stay away from WASRs' business, when it's a perfectly viable option, epecially if all he wanted to add new handguards, change the pistol grip/stock? With a Saiga, that's a decent amount of work. With a WASR, it's considerably less. Sure... you don't have dimples (big whoop), and your dust cover may come dented (which can be replaced), but it's a good stick at a good price. Is a WASR perceived to be better than a Saiga or an Arsenal? Yes. But do either of those do the job of shooting 7.62x39 better than a WASR given their price? Easily debatable (which is what we got going on here).

 

Also, why does it matter what is in your AK? And why do you have to "re-build" it yourself to figure it out? I get the comfort of knowing my AR-15s have Magpul LPKs, BCM uppers, BCM BCGs, DD rails, etc. But given the AK's operating and design tolerances, is it really that important? (serious question, not trying to be snarky)