Training firearms

[johnott 5]

My wife and I were thinking of buying a training weapon for practicing in home safety and tactical drills.

 

*Plastic replicas seem good for retention drills or movement drills for clearing a room or working in tandem with another person. But they are not mechanically functional and offer no trigger control.

 

*Training barrels seem like a cheaper alternative but I'm not sure if they are durable. We've read comments that claim they crack or break easily.

 

*I hear Airsoft pistols have the weight and functionality of normal firearms but can be a more costly alternative.

 

*Snap caps are good for dry fire and malfunction drills but are not quite what we'd feel comfortable with in other modes of training (especially with another person).

 

What do you recommend?

[RecessedFilter 222]

Spring airsoft pistols. They can be found cheap and you can even get replicas. They usually run $20-100+, so you have a real variety of what you want to get.

 

My gf has been practicing holster work with a P22 airsoft pistol. It's an exact replica of her real P22 so I feel that it is awesome for her to train with an airsoft replica to get her ready for shooting her real P22 out of a holster.

 

I do think that the other options all have their pro's, but I think they each can be used for different training/drills in their specific uses.

[vladtepes 1,060]

What do you recommend?

 

if an intruder enters your home..

take out your gun..

gather your loved ones in a central location..

call the police..

 

while waiting for the police pray that you do not have to shoot anyone..

[johnott 5]

If I'm not mistaken, the one downside for Airsoft is that it require's a Permit to Purchase a Handgun.

I'd hate to use them for practice pistol's instead of the real thing. I mean once you factor in the fees for SBI and the permit application you're already into $20 per person before you even purchase anything and then you're limited by what you can get locally in NJ.

[vladtepes 1,060]

as far as "real training" constant shooting at the range till your arms fall off.. ideally a class where you can move and shoot.. shooting based on assessing targets friend or foe as rapidly as possible..

 

that will all likely be more useful than any "mock home sweeping" exercises you could do with your loved ones..

 

have a plan.. stick to it..

[vladtepes 1,060]

If I'm not mistaken, the one downside for Airsoft is that it require's a Permit to Purchase a Handgun.

I'd hate to use them for practice pistol's instead of the real thing. I mean once you factor in the fees for SBI and the permit application you're already into $20 per person before you even purchase anything and then you're limited by what you can get locally in NJ.

 

 

airsoft pistol.. no

BB/pellet pistol.. yes..

[johnott 5]

as far as "real training" constant shooting at the range till your arms fall off.. ideally a class where you can move and shoot.. shooting based on assessing targets friend or foe as rapidly as possible..

 

that will all likely be more useful than any "mock home sweeping" exercises you could do with your loved ones..

 

have a plan.. stick to it..

 

That's what we're trying to do, develop a plan. Unfortunately, "real" training classes cost quite a bit of money especially for two people and I don't have it at this time. So we need to have an interim plan. We can't train ourselves in all the aspects of home defense, but we can practice basic safety procedures to insure we don't sweep the gun across ourselves or others etc. Obviously the home is different than the range... and we need to be familiar with how we would proceed should we have to draw a weapon there. In a two story home with a basement and walk-in attic we have to be very careful where we point our handguns; there are others in the house besides my wife and I. (Classes would be the best thing and I'd take them all if I could, but I can't afford it.)

[johnott 5]

airsoft pistol.. no

BB/pellet pistol.. yes..

 

 

 

So to be legal (not a firearm), a spring gun must fire a projectile larger 3/8 inches in diameter?

 

N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.2 Definitions "Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm, which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

 

That means I could buy one in PA or over the internet?

[vladtepes 1,060]

That's what we're trying to do, develop a plan. Unfortunately, "real" training classes cost quite a bit of money especially for two people and I don't have it at this time. So we need to have an interim plan. We can't train ourselves in all the aspects of home defense, but we can practice basic safety procedures to insure we don't sweep the gun across ourselves or others etc. Obviously the home is different than the range... and we need to be familiar with how we would proceed should we have to draw a weapon there. In a two story home with a basement and walk-in attic we have to be very careful where we point our handguns; there are others in the house besides my wife and I. (Classes would be the best thing and I'd take them all if I could, but I can't afford it.)

 

please do NOT take offense to this.. but I am just being COMPLETELY honest..

lose the notion of sweeping your house like a highly trained swat team..

 

first to start with the obvious.. do you have locks? alarm? live in an extremely high crime area? yes your house MIGHT get robbed.. YES it MIGHT happen when you are home.. BUT pretty unlikely you will fall victim to a "home invasion" type scenario... first things first.. AVOID all that even happening..

 

exterior lights..

dead bolt..

alarm if it is in the budget..

 

make your house NOT a target.. that in itself will minimize the likely hood of even being a victim.. with that said.. what if someone breaks in? you say others live there? how do you expect to even know someone broke in? where do you even begin? you need to KNOW YOUR WEAPON.. how to shoot it.. how to reload.. how to clear jams.. and then you need to practice those things a million times over.. while a nice self defense class would be nice.. if you can't afford it.. join a range.. you will NOT learn your weapon without shooting it a million times..

 

once you KNOW your weapon.. what is your plan to react to a situation? go room to room "clearing" the house? the plan needs to be FAR simpler.. and it has to involve calling 911 ASAP.. and the least movement possible so you don't get shot and you don't end up shooting your family.. while all that "clearing the house" seems reasonable.. in a multi level structure like that.. I am just not sure.. how do you know that glass breaking you just heard wasn't little jenny dropping her glass of milk by accident? the last thing you want is mr. and mrs. smith mowing her down in a hail of gunfire... when I lived alone my plan was surprisingly simple.. but there was no one I could accidentally kill...

 

not trying to be harsh.. but with multiple people living in your home.. the last thing you want to do is go walking around the house with a loaded gun.. are all the bedrooms upstairs? if so my advice is to have your wife dial 911 while you point your gun at the top of the stairs.. that would allow you an advantage should someone come up.. but should also keep you from accidentally killing someone.. the plan needs to revolve around the least movement.. also.. make sure she TELLS the police you have a gun.. don't want you shooting at the police or having them shoot you...

[Jon 264]

Just another point to add to Anthony's post. If you manage to shoot someone inside your house, even if it is a 100% "good" shoot, you will spend approx. $30,000 defending yourself from criminal prosecution. Then once cleared, you get to deal with the civil suit. You'd better be damn sure you/your wife's life is in imminent danger before you pull that trigger.

[johnott 5]

please do NOT take offense to this.. but I am just being COMPLETELY honest..

lose the notion of sweeping your house like a highly trained swat team..

 

first to start with the obvious.. do you have locks? alarm? live in an extremely high crime area? yes your house MIGHT get robbed.. YES it MIGHT happen when you are home.. BUT pretty unlikely you will fall victim to a "home invasion" type scenario... first things first.. AVOID all that even happening..

 

exterior lights..

dead bolt..

alarm if it is in the budget..

 

make your house NOT a target.. that in itself will minimize the likely hood of even being a victim.. with that said.. what if someone breaks in? you say others live there? how do you expect to even know someone broke in? where do you even begin? you need to KNOW YOUR WEAPON.. how to shoot it.. how to reload.. how to clear jams.. and then you need to practice those things a million times over.. while a nice self defense class would be nice.. if you can't afford it.. join a range.. you will NOT learn your weapon without shooting it a million times..

 

once you KNOW your weapon.. what is your plan to react to a situation? go room to room "clearing" the house? the plan needs to be FAR simpler.. and it has to involve calling 911 ASAP.. and the least movement possible so you don't get shot and you don't end up shooting your family.. while all that "clearing the house" seems reasonable.. in a multi level structure like that.. I am just not sure.. how do you know that glass breaking you just heard wasn't little jenny dropping her glass of milk by accident? the last thing you want is mr. and mrs. smith mowing her down in a hail of gunfire... when I lived alone my plan was surprisingly simple.. but there was no one I could accidentally kill...

 

not trying to be harsh.. but with multiple people living in your home.. the last thing you want to do is go walking around the house with a loaded gun.. are all the bedrooms upstairs? if so my advice is to have your wife dial 911 while you point your gun at the top of the stairs.. that would allow you an advantage should someone come up.. but should also keep you from accidentally killing someone.. the plan needs to revolve around the least movement.. also.. make sure she TELLS the police you have a gun.. don't want you shooting at the police or having them shoot you...

 

No offense taken. I appreciate the advice. We belong to an indoor range and shoot as often as we can. (All the bedrooms are upstairs but sometimes one of my grown kids might be sleeping on the couch.) Our basic plan is as you said... stay put, call 911, and guard the stairs. I wouldn't go downstairs unless I had to go down. I wouldn't try and clear a room if I didn't have to. -But, things don't always go as planned. If one of my daughters is downstairs screaming for help then I've got to go down. My wife will have to stay put, arm herself and watch the stairs. Heaven forbid that scenario will ever happen and odds are it won't but I'd rather have a plan than just wing it. I want a plan so that "IF" I had to go down those stairs I could do it safely. Also I don't want my wife to shoot me by accident either, so if we both occasionally practice some "what if" scenario's we could address any obvious mistakes in our gun handling ability and figure the safest direction to point a weapon when in different locations of the house. We wouldn't practice swat team drills or commando tactics, primarily it's for safe gun handling.

[vladtepes 1,060]

No offense taken. I appreciate the advice. We belong to an indoor range and shoot as often as we can. (All the bedrooms are upstairs but sometimes one of my grown kids might be sleeping on the couch.) Our basic plan is as you said... stay put, call 911, and guard the stairs. I wouldn't go downstairs unless I had to go down. I wouldn't try and clear a room if I didn't have to. -But, things don't always go as planned. If one of my daughters is downstairs screaming for help then I've got to go down. My wife will have to stay put, arm herself and watch the stairs. Heaven forbid that scenario will ever happen and odds are it won't but I'd rather have a plan than just wing it. I want a plan so that "IF" I had to go down those stairs I could do it safely. Also I don't want my wife to shoot me by accident either, so if we both occasionally practice some "what if" scenario's we could address any obvious mistakes in our gun handling ability and figure the safest direction to point a weapon when in different locations of the house. We wouldn't practice swat team drills or commando tactics, primarily it's for safe gun handling.

 

fair enough... if that is the case then it sounds like you already have a plan.. if the area is really so bad that you think it is possible.. tell the kids to stay the hell up stairs at night.. lol and glad you took what I said as you did.. like I said.. no offense intended..

[johnott 5]

Just another point to add to Anthony's post. If you manage to shoot someone inside your house, even if it is a 100% "good" shoot, you will spend approx. $30,000 defending yourself from criminal prosecution. Then once cleared, you get to deal with the civil suit. You'd better be damn sure you/your wife's life is in imminent danger before you pull that trigger.

 

I hear what your saying, and I have no desire to shoot anyone. Only out of necessity would I do so and only to protect the life of my family or myself from imminent danger. Circumstances would force me to it. I'm not trigger happy nor am I a careless individual and I've given a lot of serious thought to the matter of owning a handgun. That is why I want to practice safety in the home. I'm not running around the house in camo's playing cops. There must be some people who practice with training firearms and all I wanted to know is what most people recommend.

[johnott 5]

fair enough... if that is the case then it sounds like you already have a plan.. if the area is really so bad that you think it is possible.. tell the kids to stay the hell up stairs at night.. lol and glad you took what I said as you did.. like I said.. no offense intended..

 

(I could tell the kids to stay upstairs at night, but they don't always listen to me... I'm only their dad )

 

These days you can have a burglar alarm, security lights, cameras, dogs etc... and your not immune to some of the nuts running the streets. As I get older I worry more about home invasions than burglaries. When does an area become a bad area... it may only takes one day if your the victim. Thanks for the advice, no hard feelings. Sometimes my writing doesn't reflect it but I'm generally not harsh or adversarial by nature ...but I do love to debate.

[Tosser 61]

Let's not confuse the mindset here.

 

Concern One: Winning

Concern Two: everything else.

 

 

I have used airsoft pistols and sim guns in training and you learn alot. Buy two airsoft pistols and see how hard it truely is to clear your house.

 

My suggestion if you can't afford both of you to take a class at least one of you. There are some great force on force classes that will be a real reality check for you.

[gunforhire 826]

If I'm not mistaken, the one downside for Airsoft is that it require's a Permit to Purchase a Handgun.

I'd hate to use them for practice pistol's instead of the real thing. I mean once you factor in the fees for SBI and the permit application you're already into $20 per person before you even purchase anything and then you're limited by what you can get locally in NJ.

Not yet. You can still by soft air guns in NJ. There is legislation to change that (only in NJ). Senate Bill S454.

 

Real guns and snap caps would be my choice.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

I say airsoft. I have an Airsoft Px4 Storm that's built almost exactly like my real one, but it's different enough for me to differentiate between the two.

 

Using a real gun with snap caps still represents a level of risk.

[MedicYeti 96]

I am an NRA instructor. For my postol classes I use a plastic gun to review safety and to show the parts of the gun. Have snap caps for the dry fire drills. I want to pick up a laserlyte barrel insert for personal and professional use (it "hears" the dry fire and shoots the laser beam for an instant.

When I did the IDPA orientation for new shooters I used the plastic gun for demonstration purposes, this would allow me to safely show rule violations.

I like the plastic gun for draw practice an quick sight alignment practice.

I had a training barrel which broke and was a real pain to remove after breaking.

Airsoft can be fun toys but I don't want to clean up the plastic bb's all around the house. I also don't want to worry about ricochet within the home.

My experience and opinion.

[KpdPipes 388]

If I'm not mistaken, the one downside for Airsoft is that it require's a Permit to Purchase a Handgun.

I'd hate to use them for practice pistol's instead of the real thing. I mean once you factor in the fees for SBI and the permit application you're already into $20 per person before you even purchase anything and then you're limited by what you can get locally in NJ.

You are.. airsoft (SO FAR) Does not fall under 2C:39 except in that the muzzle must be red. other than that, they are NOT Regulated, although the legislature has discussed it (along with paintball) several times. a Good, QUALITY Gas-blowback airsoft handgun will probably cost you upwards of $150.00, that said, the weight, and balance of them is pretty close to the real ones, so it can be a real plus to helping build muscle memory, and manipulating your real firearm under stress. The only reason I would shy away from the Spring Airsoft guns is because the weight, balance, and even magazine designs are MUCh different, therefore less effective as a training tool in my opinion.

[BigHayden 77]

What? No option for real guns a live ammo??

 

Kidding, of course [Do not use real guns + live ammo to practice anything in your house]. Personally, I have a green gas airsoft that has a real weight/feel/function (without the risk of ventilating something I wouldn't want to). So much so, that I wouldn't take it outside lest I scare the neighbors.

 

House clearing is not something any of us should ever do, but sometimes home layout will dictate that you have to move through the house to get to your kids and ensure their safety. In my house, this requires me to cross the stairs (which are almost directly in front of the front door). I've practiced moving from my room to the kids' rooms (clustered down the hall, so I wouldn't have to clear the whole house) to figure out the safest/most covered path. It's not ideal, but it's reality.

[johnott 5]

You are.. airsoft (SO FAR) Does not fall under 2C:39 except in that the muzzle must be red. other than that, they are NOT Regulated, although the legislature has discussed it (along with paintball) several times. a Good, QUALITY Gas-blowback airsoft handgun will probably cost you upwards of $150.00, that said, the weight, and balance of them is pretty close to the real ones, so it can be a real plus to helping build muscle memory, and manipulating your real firearm under stress. The only reason I would shy away from the Spring Airsoft guns is because the weight, balance, and even magazine designs are MUCh different, therefore less effective as a training tool in my opinion.

 

I'm still confused as to whether an airsoft gun is a firearm in NJ. Is there a specific law that exempts them? The NJ airsoft forums are in debate daily over the legality of airsoft. And if you go to Weapons Charges John Marshall (a criminal lawyer in Toms River NJ) says "Although Airsoft and other rubber pellet guns and rifles can be found at flea markets, sporting good stores and department stores, they are considered Firearms under N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1 as they fire a projectile using high compression."

 

I'm not sure what to believe. If they are firearms and you wanted to purchase an airsoft pistol you would need a permit to purchase a handgun. But if sporting goods stores in NJ sell them without requiring a permit then it would seem that they are legal and are not firearms. If they are legal then I should be able to buy one over the internet or in PA. I just saw a seller on ebay who states he can't ship airsoft to NJ because they are illegal here. I know there are places I can purchase them in NJ, PA or from other internet retailers without a hassle, but as legal technicalities go it seems a grey area. This is another example of NJ's vague and archaic laws that we are forced to endure.

[KpdPipes 388]

I'm still confused as to whether an airsoft gun is a firearm in NJ. Is there a specific law that exempts them? The NJ airsoft forums are in debate daily over the legality of airsoft. And if you go to Weapons Charges John Marshall (a criminal lawyer in Toms River NJ) says "Although Airsoft and other rubber pellet guns and rifles can be found at flea markets, sporting good stores and department stores, they are considered Firearms under N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1 as they fire a projectile using high compression."

 

I'm not sure what to believe. If they are firearms and you wanted to purchase an airsoft pistol you would need a permit to purchase a handgun. But if sporting goods stores in NJ sell them without requiring a permit then it would seem that they are legal and are not firearms. If they are legal then I should be able to buy one over the internet or in PA. I just saw a seller on ebay who states he can't ship airsoft to NJ because they are illegal here. I know there are places I can purchase them in NJ, PA or from other internet retailers without a hassle, but as legal technicalities go it seems a grey area. This is another example of NJ's vague and archaic laws that we are forced to endure.

The highlightesd part doesnt mean diddley.. Sportsman's guide wont ship ANYTHING used on an AR to nj, including Sights..yet i have half a dozen AR's sitting in my safe. Marshall is wrong, thats not to say you can't get charged with using an airsoft as a WEAPON if you misuse it (I've done so) But you are not charged with a FIREARM. Just because he's an Attorney don't assume he's any kind of expert in NJ firearms law..hell i've been dealing with 2C:38 and 58 for over 24 years and parts are still confusing. At the end of the day, and confirmed by my own County Prosecutor, Airsoft is NOT considered a firearm under NJ state law..Period. Not to say the Legislature can't get a wild hair up their collective a&& and change that next week on a whim.

[Sixtytwo327 14]

if an intruder enters your home..

take out your gun..

gather your loved ones in a central location..

call the police..

 

while waiting for the police pray that you do not have to shoot anyone..

 

Amen to that.

[johnott 5]

The highlightesd part doesnt mean diddley.. Sportsman's guide wont ship ANYTHING used on an AR to nj, including Sights..yet i have half a dozen AR's sitting in my safe. Marshall is wrong, thats not to say you can't get charged with using an airsoft as a WEAPON if you misuse it (I've done so) But you are not charged with a FIREARM. Just because he's an Attorney don't assume he's any kind of expert in NJ firearms law..hell i've been dealing with 2C:38 and 58 for over 24 years and parts are still confusing. At the end of the day, and confirmed by my own County Prosecutor, Airsoft is NOT considered a firearm under NJ state law..Period. Not to say the Legislature can't get a wild hair up their collective a&& and change that next week on a whim.

 

Thanks, that's good to know. (Sometimes this legal stuff drives me nuts.)

[KpdPipes 388]

Thanks, that's good to know. (Sometimes this legal stuff drives me nuts.)

 

Try dealing with it every day..as the Ag and County prosecutors continually issue contradictory guidelines and directives.