A fine line - What happens when?............

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Thats your opinion and I respect that, but I'm 20, have a firm grasp on reality,

 

We all thought that when we were 20 dude, didn't always work out as planned...

[Regulator72 80]

My nephew received one of these for Christmas

 

 

It's a H&K MP7A. Now, I don't have much MP7 experience, but this gun was REAListic. proper weight, rails, red dot, etc.. looked pretty legit and nice.. well, looked nice until I slapped it outta his hand after the 2nd time I told him not to muzzle sweep anyone with it.. After he stopped crying about is new "toy" getting scratched, i asked him if he would cry the same if he shot someone, or got shot because of this. I then took the time to teach him why its not ok to muzzle sweep or point the barrel at his face when he was filling the bottom of the mag with propane... same crap tho, he's only 12 and has been playing for 3 years at least... :wild:

 

oh, and I think the REAL gun manufacturers should not license their name on any FAKE gun.. it's just bad.

[SpecialK 193]

Why all the attacks on the parents being bad and the kid being unsupervised?????? pull your heads out of your...New Jersey. Besides his terrible display of trigger control there was nothing wrong with this video! In other states it is no big deal for an kid to have a toy like this! Do you all have your panties in a bunch because of the news story the other day where the kid got shot because he pointed it at the police? Just because there was one idiot doesn't make this kid an idiot too.

[SpecialK 193]

If you are 18yo and play Airsoft I really have to wonder about your grasp of reality. So as far as I'm concerned Airsoft is BS. If you're 18yo be a man and do Simulations.

 

There is no need to attack someone for their choice in hobbies or their age. I am not a fan or airsoft (a young mans game) or of civil war reenactments (an older mans game), but to each their own.

[GiantsFan 22]

oh, and I think the REAL gun manufacturers should not license their name on any FAKE gun.. it's just bad.

 

I agree with you on this and I think it's bad in more ways then one. Sooner or later these airgun replicas are going to cause quite a stir (maybe when a NJ kid gets gunned down) and then there will be a cry to outlaw them. only then they will be considered "guns" (and NOT toys) by the general public and the cry will go on to add lots of fuel to the anti-gun crowds agenda. We the legal responsible gun owners will suffer for it. Trust me, these replica guns (for whatever their intended purpose) are not in our best interest. Personally, I'm almost shocked that something like this can be placed in the hands of a minor without direct full time supervision. I am sure the law enforcement community is fearful and against these as well - and that too cannot be good for us.

[bulpup 98]

What is the need for the propane?

 

I have nothing against airsoft or paintball (other than it seems in new jersey all the fields are afraid of full auto, which really pisses me off) because it can get people out and exercising and participating in team sports.

 

However I always seem to hear about adults having to correct someone else's kids on proper gun handling.

My sister in law has no problem with me taking her son to the range, but has an aversion to letting him point a gun at another person "in fun," as opposed to for training. I see her point. Just the right mind set for supervising a kid with a toy like the above, but she won't do it because she hasn't got the time.

 

My last big paintball game I was really on edge for all the teenagers sweeping me with their FN and M-16 replicas in the setup areas without one of those muzzle glove thingys. The Sergeant in me was really about to show them it's ugly face.

[GiantsFan 22]

Why all the attacks on the parents being bad and the kid being unsupervised?????? pull your heads out of your...New Jersey. Besides his terrible display of trigger control there was nothing wrong with this video! In other states it is no big deal for an kid to have a toy like this! Do you all have your panties in a bunch because of the news story the other day where the kid got shot because he pointed it at the police? Just because there was one idiot doesn't make this kid an idiot too.

 

You're right, the kids not an idiot,, hes a KID!

His parents are the idiots....

 

The kid in TX the other day is not the first to die because of an 'air soft" incident with police. There was another in FL too. So just how many children should die before this becomes unacceptible to you?

[SpecialK 193]

All of the ones that can't obey the rules.

[GiantsFan 22]

All of the ones that can't obey the rules.

 

And what rules are they when Mommy slaps a toy gun into the kids hands and says, "here go play outside and give me some peace for a while" ???

[SpecialK 193]

Not knowing the rules does not mean you are not subject to them.

[Old School 611]

There is no need to attack someone for their choice in hobbies or their age. I am not a fan or airsoft (a young mans game) or of civil war reenactments (an older mans game), but to each their own.

 

Reverend Kevin- I just think Airsoft is not good for the shooting sports and responcible firearms ownership in general.

 

BTW there were about 8 kids playing Airsoft in the woods in my yard, they came over from the next cul-d-sac. Thinking they were real guns I went out armed and talked to them. Then I saw the caution tape they put up in the area. I let them play but asked them to clean up afterwards. They were polite and cleaned up. But this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. If I can't tell if they're real from a distance who can?

[GiantsFan 22]

Not knowing the rules does not mean you are not subject to them.

 

For real firearms we have rules, yes as dicatated by laws and safe handling practices that you either follow or ignore.

When you buy a replica gun, all you need is an adult over 18 to make a purchase. There are no other rules. There is no education. And certaily there is nothing that filters on down to the 'child" him/herself about safe practices. So what on earth are you referring to about not following the "rules??"

[bulpup 98]

BTW there were about 8 kids playing Airsoft in the woods in my yard,[.....]

Thinking they were real guns I went out armed and talked to them.

 

uh oh, I sense a Clint Eastwood " get the hell off my lawn" lawn picture coming...

[SpecialK 193]

There is no perfect solution. That is the problem with the want to regulate anything. Who can you ask? You did just fine in that situation. If you are worried about someone shooting first and asking questions later there are laws about that already, something about murder not being kosher I'm not to sure about the exact regulation. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but kids are going to die every day. So are babies, teenagers, and adults. Trying to stop all death is a futile battle.

[SpecialK 193]

For real firearms we have rules, yes as dicatated by laws and safe handling practices that you either follow or ignore.

When you buy a replica gun, all you need is an adult over 18 to make a purchase. There are no other rules. There is no education. And certaily there is nothing that filters on down to the 'child" him/herself about safe practices. So what on earth are you referring to about not following the "rules??"

 

Give me a scenario of a child being shot that has an airsoft gun and I'll point out the rules that were broken. In the recent case it was the child refuse to comply with the police.

[SpecialK 193]

Reverend Kevin

 

 

Hey I think Ive been pretty good lately

[GiantsFan 22]

Give me a scenario of a child being shot that has an airsoft gun and I'll point out the rules that were broken. In the recent case it was the child refuse to comply with the police.

 

Hold that thought as I'm quite sure there will be several examples we can point to that happen in 2012 we can use for reference...

The public outcry will then be to not only outlaw replica guns, but all guns, yours too. But you're cool with that I assume..

[Krdshrk 3,878]

I acknowledge the different points of views on this. Frank - Sure - simunitions are much more realistic, but it comes down to 1 big thing - COST. There's several reasons why I play Airsoft compared to paintball - cost is one of them.

 

Cost per 1000 rounds of airsoft BBs - $3 (Bag of 5000 rounds for $15)

Cost per 1000 rounds of Paintballs - $40

Cost per 1000 rounds of Simunitions - $600 (if you can get it).

 

Man up? If you're 18 and only have a couple hundred to spend, what would you do? Definitely not simunitions.

 

I got into airsoft for a more mil-sim experience (yes you can call me mall ninja). I don't want to run around behind inflatable obstacles wearing neon colors like Paintball. I've done Vietnam re-enactment games where the immersion's so great, we slept out in the rain in hammocks and dug tunnels and ate rice cooked over a fire while the "US" forces slept in nice tents in their base that was fortified with trenches, MG nests, and artillery.

 

As with everything - there's the proper way to do it, and the WRONG way. This is why I blame the parents.

 

The 8 year olds that were running around behind your house - were they in any way supervised by parents? Were they wearing proper protective gear? If you had seen an adult out there with them, would you have armed up and gone out there? Maybe so, but you wouldn't have been as on edge I bet.

 

If/When I have kids - if they want to play airsoft, they can... AFTER I have gone over safety with them. I will observe their play - and most likely will play along with them. If they want to go out into the woods with their friends? Not on my watch. There's a reason why I play on insured fields. There are enough of them in the area.

 

As for the indoor arenas where these kids love to have parties and such - again, there's the right way to do it and the wrong way. Godfather Airsoft's Airsoft factory does it the WRONG way - that guy is out for profit and that's it. There are other places that do it PROPERLY. Strikeforce Sports in Long Island is one of those places. There's enough staff there to supervise the staging areas to make sure that people are doing things safely. If not, they are warned or ejected.

 

Just like everything - there's the 5% of people who will use things the wrong way. Does that automatically mean we should ban these items? HELL no. The anti-gun lobby is using to try to fuel their campaign.

[Malice4you 627]

I mentioned in my introduction that I play airsoft. I think it might be appropriate to expand on that here.

 

I've played airsoft since 2007. In the years since I started, I've learned a lot more about guns than I had known previously, including to respect the guns and how to handle them properly. I have never played or used airsoft guns out in public, only at sanctioned fields. The groups of people who play airsoft are of all levels, from new players wearing jeans to casual players to serious people who've played years to current/former LEOs or military. Virtually all the people who I play with are good, honest people. Many airsoft players are also gun owners, many more aspire to be.

 

Like pretty much everyone here, airsofters are concerned about laws and restrictions limiting our ability to participate in an activity we enjoy. The acts of a few uneducated or just plain stupid people have the ability to endanger our sport. Unlike with real firearms, airsoft guns are fairly easy for a young kid to get, be it from a friend, parent, or buying at a flea market or internet. Since a lot of kids with airsoft guns do not get properly supervised or educated, there are a lot of times when these kids do dumb things. Kids think (or more likely, don't think) that places like schools, playgrounds, parks, or their neighborhood are good places to play. I do want parents to be WAY more involved in their kid's lives, especially when it comes to airsoft guns, so they learn safe handling, but most parents are just as cluseless about safe gun handling as their kid, since they do't own or use guns, either.

 

To counter this, a number of older, more experienced players have come up with various methods to educate and train younger players, to prevent kids from playing in places where they are a danger to themselves and others. ACT (Airsoft Combat Training) is a class put together by game producers and experienced players, and it stresses safety, including safe handling of the guns. There have been classes to also train in squad tactics, sniper training, and other topics, to create better and ultimately safer players.

 

Airsofters are a friendly group, when we're not shooting plastic BBs at each other. We get along off the field, and many friendships have been made thanks to playing airsoft. Every day that I go out to play airsoft, I have a good time. Rain, snow, cold, heat, and everything in between....people come out to have a good time.

 

Airsoft isn't just a game for kids....I'm 29 and people I play with regularly are into their 50s. I've talked to a number of police officers who use airsoft as a training method which is cheaper than simunitions. Some military units are using airsoft as a method of training as well. As previously mentioned, airsoft is inexpensive. A bag of good ammo is about $13-15 for 3000-4000 rounds. Even the most expensive, accurate airsoft ammo costs about the same as bulk .22LRs. Even if I go through a bag during a day of airsoft, I've only spent as much as the average box of 9mm or .45s. Many of my airsoft guns are also nearly identical in operation and even weight to their real firearm counterparts, allowing for drills and other training, including in places like your basement or backyard (assuming it is safe and legal to do so, in a way that no one else can see you doing so!) where you cannot actually shoot your real gun

 

Airsoft is gaining ground slowly. Last summer, I had the chance to airsoft at Fort Drum, in New York state, at one of their MOUT facilities. There have been a few games held there, as well as at various other military bases throughout the country. A number of local airsoft fields, both indoor and outdoor, exist all over the state, with more opening up every year.

 

Airsoft is a fun sport. It gets people outta their houses and exercising. It builds camaraderie. It allows people to own guns they will never own in a real firearm, especially not in this state. Training and support for new players is a great way to keep the sport safe and without regulations what could make criminals out of honest players just trying to have fun. Sound familiar?

 

I invite anyone who's on the fence about airsoft to come out to a game sometime. I generally have a decent amount of loaner gear and always am happy to introduce new people to airsoft (as well as to real steel, but that's a different story).

 

 

 

Full disclosure: I am a moderator on http://www.airsoftnj.com and am on the team (and good friends) with one of the guys who runs one of the biggest outdoor fields in New Jersey.

[LastShot 6]

saw this awhile ago

 

 

 

ASSEMBLY, No. 1809

 

STATE OF NEW JERSEY

214th LEGISLATURE

 

PRE-FILED FOR INTRODUCTION IN THE 2010 SESSION

 

 

 

 

Sponsored by:

Assemblywoman CAROLINE CASAGRANDE

District 12 (Mercer and Monmouth)

Assemblyman REED GUSCIORA

District 15 (Mercer)

 

 

 

 

SYNOPSIS

Makes it a crime to sell or possess products or materials designed to alter firearms to look like toy guns.

 

CURRENT VERSION OF TEXT

Introduced Pending Technical Review by Legislative Counsel

 

 

 

AN ACT concerning firearms and supplementing chapter 39 of Title 2C of the New Jersey Statutes.

 

BE IT ENACTED by the Senate and General Assembly of the State of New Jersey:

 

1. a. Any person who sells, offers to sell, possesses with the intent to sell, or otherwise transfer to another any equipment, product or material that alone, or in combination with other equipment, products or materials, is designed to be used to color-coat or otherwise alter the appearance of a firearm in such a way that it would lead an observer to reasonably believe or misidentify that firearm as a toy gun is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

b. Any person who knowing acquires or has in his possession any equipment, product or material that alone, or in combination with other equipment, products or materials, is designed to be used to color-coat or otherwise alter the appearance of a firearm in such a way that it would lead an observer to reasonably believe or misidentify that firearm as a toy gun is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

 

2. This act shall take effect on the first day of the third month following enactment.

 

 

STATEMENT

 

This bill would make it a crime of the fourth degree for any person to sell, offer to sell, or otherwise transfer to another any equipment, product or material that alone, or in combination with any other equipment, product or material, is design to be used to color-coat or otherwise alter a firearm in such a way that it would lead an observer to reasonably believe or misidentify that firearm as a toy gun.

This bill also would make it a crime of the fourth degree for any person to acquire or possess any such equipment, product or materials.

A crime of the fourth degree is punishable by imprisonment for a term of up to 18 months; a fine of up to $10,000; or both.

 

 

Do they intending on banning orange paint?

[302w 83]

They really couldn't buy it, but many of the places that sold ammo would take the money, and leave it out back by a garbage can or something like that. At least that's that way it was when my father was a kid growing up in the Irvington and Union area.

 

My area was rural back when he grew up. I have been told dozens of times "the cops would stop us and ask if we were goin to the dump to shoot rats when weeze was 13. Now you got these damn kids.....".

 

As for whoever saying airsoft is/isn't manly... When I was 15/16/17, I used to go to legitimate fields and have fun shooting at people with an M14. It was kind of creepy though, because there would be 30-40 year old guys who would take things too seriously while trying to play GI Joe. Maybe I am too casual for airsoft, but I still continue to play paintball because I enjoy running around in the woods getting shot at while trying to accomplish something. I remember people getting into fistfights and others joining random teams and a lot of it turned into groups of adults getting into pissing contests in camouflage. I left the game when it stopped being a game for everyone else.

 

Superphoto.... which mod? I used to be active over there.

[vladtepes 1,060]

totally off topic.. but since we are discussing airsoft... the one thing that has always bothered me..

people say it is a viable form of training.. the guns are realistic and operate in a similar if not identical manner to the real gun they are modeled after..

well.. what AR15 carries 300 rounds of ammo in one magazine? what magazine for a G36 gives you almost 500 rounds of ammo? there is nothing realistic about riding a trigger for 200... 300.... shots before a mag empties? how do people using airsoft as a actual means of training overcome the obvious magazine capacity hurdle.. does it not just develop a "spray and pray" habit.. for me one of the most important skills to learning is changing a magazine on the fly.. seems to completely defeat the "realistic" aspect?

[Krdshrk 3,878]

totally off topic.. but since we are discussing airsoft... the one thing that has always bothered me..

people say it is a viable form of training.. the guns are realistic and operate in a similar if not identical manner to the real gun they are modeled after..

well.. what AR15 carries 300 rounds of ammo in one magazine? what magazine for a G36 gives you almost 500 rounds of ammo? there is nothing realistic about riding a trigger for 200... 300.... shots before a mag empties? how do people using airsoft as a actual means of training overcome the obvious magazine capacity hurdle.. does it not just develop a "spray and pray" habit.. for me one of the most important skills to learning is changing a magazine on the fly.. seems to completely defeat the "realistic" aspect?

 

There are magazines with realistic capacity. Standard "locap" mags for M4s/M16s carry 68 rounds. You don't have to load them fully either.

[vladtepes 1,060]

There are magazines with realistic capacity. Standard "locap" mags for M4s/M16s carry 68 rounds. You don't have to load them fully either.

 

is that standard practice? to load them down?

 

because standing 30 feet from someone spraying an endless stream of BBs at them sounds silly..

[bulpup 98]

totally off topic.. but since we are discussing airsoft... the one thing that has always bothered me..

people say it is a viable form of training.. the guns are realistic and operate in a similar if not identical manner to the real gun they are modeled after..

 

Ammo limits aside, why paintball and airsoft falls short for training is that there is no penetration of concealment or cover. Even the military has trouble imparting to soldiers that that dude that popped his head through the door and then hid behind the sheet rock wall is an easy kill.

 

For me, I always saw those guys that were constantly hiding behind leafy branches as the one that stood to lose the most if it got real.

 

BUT, Teamwork, communication, angles of fires and fire lanes, experienceing all that tac stuff is very good.

 

But if anyone really wants to get the intro to the biggest and least trained aspect of it, take your hearing protection off. No, I am not advocating it - don't actually do it more than once. But seriously, take your HD weapon to an indoor range, take off your hearing protection and fire one round. THAT should be every one's training start point.

 

Again, not advocating it but, think of the police and the military - just sayin'

[BlueLineFish 615]

Pain is the ultimate training tool. We use simunitions when we do training. Those things sting like a **** at close range.

[Malice4you 627]

Couple things, some manufacturers do manufacture realcaps, i.e. 30rd mags for ARs, AKs, etc, 20rd mags for G3s, etc. High capacity magazines often come with the gun, but mid/low/real -cap mags are often available very cheaply.

 

Problem with realcaps is that since airsoft is not very powerful as well as inaccurate, it can take a few shots to take out your target (at least in a woodland environment, thanks to branches/leaves/etc), so figuring 3-5 BBs to 1 real round is a more accurate representation of what a real gun would be in terms of accuracy.

 

Since many airsoft guns are full-auto capable, those 3-5 rounds can be fired in a split second. Most electric guns are capable of at least 10rps. However, to reload most electric guns, nothing needs to be done other than slapping a new mag, no releasing a bolt catch or whatever. Gas Blowback (GBB) rifles are often more realistic in this respect....my GBB M4 has all the working features of a real deal rifle (jams and all!), including bolt catch, forward assist, etc. Weight is spot on too. It has about the kick of a .22LR, so it's about what...1/4 to 1/2 the feel of a real .223? I haven't shot one in almost a year, so forgive me.

 

Anyway...airsoft also allows you to do drills in your home like Mr Wombat, where shooting a real rifle in your home might be impractical or frowned upon. Wives seem to dislike holes in the walls, for whatever reason.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Ammo limits aside, why paintball and airsoft falls short for training is that there is no penetration of concealment or cover. Even the military has trouble imparting to soldiers that that dude that popped his head through the door and then hid behind the sheet rock wall is an easy kill.

 

For me, I always saw those guys that were constantly hiding behind leafy branches as the one that stood to lose the most if it got real.

 

BUT, Teamwork, communication, angles of fires and fire lanes, experienceing all that tac stuff is very good.

 

But if anyone really wants to get the intro to the biggest and least trained aspect of it, take your hearing protection off. No, I am not advocating it - don't actually do it more than once. But seriously, take your HD weapon to an indoor range, take off your hearing protection and fire one round. THAT should be every one's training start point.

 

Again, not advocating it but, think of the police and the military - just sayin'

 

+1 I have shot without hearing protection.. shot in low light.. and all that.. because you never know what will end up happening.. and nice to know what to expect..

[Recon Racoon 49]

We all thought that when we were 20 dude, didn't always work out as planned...

No plan survives first contact lol.

[SpecialK 193]

No plan survives first contact lol.

 

Everyone's got a plan until they are punched in the nose.