Probably why you should'nt open carry.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Nah...I'm not BPD. I live like 2 minutes from that diner though.

[GRIZ 3,369]

When you say 10%, that means 10% of all LEO shootings are with their own gun? That seems like an awful big percentage to me. I would guess that few guns were "snatched" before being used to shoot the LEO, versus LEO being overpowered and then having his gun stolen and turned on him. Any thoughts?

 

Read the FBI "Law Enforcement Officers Killed" summaries and draw you own conclusions. I didn't sit with a calculator and come up with the 10%. It may have been 5% one year, 15% the next, etc

[Sandy 44]

Well , could not find anything specif to what I have been taught in self defense classes ( regarding the lower than you would think fatality rates of gun shots ) ..but I found this article and thought it was interesting .

 

In regards to officers who won gun fights ( under the close encounters section) :

 

"One of the most interesting was the distances involved. While the FBI statistics show distances as being around ten feet, the PMA study showed the average distance being more like twenty. This makes sense, as distance will favor the person with the most training. This relates directly back to awareness as the sooner you see trouble coming, the more time you have to prepare for war. The PMA study also shows that the hit ratio per encounter was closer to 62 percent instead of the often-reported 18 percent " So the article claims 62% success rate at distances over 10 feet , and 18 % close encounter distance.

 

It was the only recent publication online I could find about the success rate of a gun shot in an altercation. I have heard less than 50 % from just about every course I have taken ..hence the prevailing advice to women and children in particular ..you are better off risking the gun shot than complying and being moved against your will.

 

Interesting read if nothing else. Sorry if it is only indirectly related to the original topic

 

http://www.handgunsm...ppens_gunfight/

[bulpup 98]

8.6 % from 2001 to 2010

 

http://www.fbi.gov/a...eapon-01-10.xls

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/leoka-2010/tables/table01-leok-feloniously-region-division-state-01-10.xls

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/leoka-2010/officers-feloniously-killed

[Soju 153]

 

 

That you are toast if you allow someone to take you to a secondary location is a well know stat.

 

 

 

Well it is not well known to me...which is why I asked. If it is so well known you should have no problem backing up your claim. When I looked it up, I didn't find much, and what I did find was unverified, however it showed a 83%-52% difference from yours. That leads me to believe your claim is just as made up as the ones I read online. Saying something is "well known" does not verify it, as many "well known" facts are incorrect and stem from misinformation and misconceptions.

[Sandy 44]

Statistical outcomes of abductions are not published clearly because of the way they are indexed.Abductions are often lumped together ..parental , human trafficking ( which is why AZ has the highest rate in the country) , strangers abducting children , ransoms .. lumped together. A woman who is raped and killed will not go into the FBI crime files as a kidnapping victim. It will be a homicide . They don't make the distinction that she was kidnapped first then killed. You would have to read the article to get the full story from it's beginning.

 

That rate of grievous harm coming to a victim moved to a secondary location is cited very often by law enforcement giving self defense courses , as well as by several rape intervention programs. It is prevailing advice , coming from people who investigate the homicides. Not everything is set in stone or verifiable by Professor Google.

 

I'm sure if you look up " don't go to a secondary location " you'll find pages of instructors , self defense programs , etc that teach it , and not because it is an urban myth . I'll see if I can find something online later for you though ( something that is not a self defense program ) .

[Soju 153]

I understand, and again, am not saying you are wrong. I do however object on you quantifying it as 95% without any source, and then saying it is a well known stat. That is what I take issue with. Now if you were to simply say, it is generally more dangerous, or not usually in your best interested, that is different. Personally, I'd rather try and fight my way out of a situation rather then submit to an abduction/kidnapping. I agree, I have often heard that kidnapping type things don't often have favorable results, but to claim something like only 5% survival rate without substantiating it seems a bit of an exaggeration.

 

Thanks for taking the time to try and look it up.

 

This also leads me to another question.

 

Assuming your odds are better off trying to do something instead of being taken to a secondary location, why does Law Enforcement in general, tell people to comply with the perpetrators? That seems like terrible advice if your assertion is true?

 

I want to make it clear I am not questioning you, nor directing it to you specifically, but to the forum in general.

[Sandy 44]

I have never been told by LE to not resist. They don't even teach the kids to do that when The Center For Missing and Exploited Children do their school tours. They tell them to kick scream fight bite no matter WHAT . I've taken several rape and violent crime prevention courses ( over the last few decades ) , they are always giving them on college campuses for female students and such. I have never ever been told to let someone lead you somewhere under threat. Always better to fight.

 

Actually , the only time I have seen kidnap strategy advice to the contrary is in hostile areas in other countries , i.e political reasons. You're worth more alive type situations.

 

If someone wants you off the street and someplace of their choosing , they want to do things they can't do in plain sight. If you resist and they shoot you , they probably were going to dispose of you anyway. If they don't shoot you and run away because they want an easier target , even better.

 

There are plenty of stats and "well knowns" when it comes to scenario training that can't be quickly popped up on a google graph. Just handed down info from the people who deal with it daily and clean up the messes.

 

I will see if I can find anything for you that is not a self defense school ad..after the kids go to bed I'll see if I can any hard stats. Like I said , once someone is killed or raped it gets indexed as such ..so it really is kind of hard to find actual numbers since the topic of kidnappings are kind of muddled.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Yeah I go there for lunch sometimes. There were two cop cars blocking off the intersection just down the street was thinking of going and asking one of them but they looked busy. Was that you?

 

You should've called me daddy!

[BlueLineFish 615]

Why would he call you daddy ...lol

 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Why would he call you daddy ...lol

 

because hearing it from you gets kinda old

[GRIZ 3,369]

8.6 % from 2001 to 2010

 

http://www.fbi.gov/a...eapon-01-10.xls

http://www.fbi.gov/a...state-01-10.xls

http://www.fbi.gov/a...oniously-killed

 

 

 

Thanx bulpup I knew 10% wasn't far off.

[GRIZ 3,369]

 

 

In Colorado you are by law required to get involved if you are carrying, not that Coloradoans need a law to do that. I do see your point in NJ though. I needed a jump the other day for my car in a diner parking lot in Bayonne and on the 6th try I finally got someone that wasn't to busy to help for the whole 3 minutes it took.

 

Special K could you please post a reference to the law in CO that says you must get involved if carrying? Not trying to sharpshoot you just would like to see a reference.

 

You said you conceal carry in CO. How do you do this legally? According to CBI, CO only recognizes permits issued to residents of the state issuing the permit. In other words no non-resident permits.

honored. CO also doesn't seem to offer a non-resident permits.

 

 

http://cbi.state.co.us/

[SpecialK 193]

Special K could you please post a reference to the law in CO that says you must get involved if carrying? Not trying to sharpshoot you just would like to see a reference.

 

You said you conceal carry in CO. How do you do this legally? According to CBI, CO only recognizes permits issued to residents of the state issuing the permit. In other words no non-resident permits.

honored. CO also doesn't seem to offer a non-resident permits.

 

 

http://cbi.state.co.us/

 

I have my buddy that's a cop in CO looking it up for me now, I'll let you know when he does. As for the other question: I haven't always been stuck here in NJ only about a year and half ago did I get here. I used to be a freeman roaming CO with a gun on my hip, ah simpler times....

[bulpup 98]

 

 

 

 

Thanx bulpup I knew 10% was far off.

 

Anytime. Fascinating site by the way. It actually has a spreadsheet on how many times a person killed another in Self-Defense and with what instrument.

[SpecialK 193]

Special K could you please post a reference to the law in CO that says you must get involved if carrying? Not trying to sharpshoot you just would like to see a reference.

 

 

 

I was misinformed. I talked to my buddy and he said there is no need to get involved, just that if a CCW does get involved they are covered under the Good Samaritan Act and do not have to fear legal repercussions. This is the same officer that misled me on the law before though, at least he did point out that the misleading came in a hypothetical situation we were talking about while at the bar and fairly drunk. Was probably reiterated in my head by remember the police officer teaching my CCW class (I was exempt because of military service, but decided to take it anyways) was talking about how if we see a man choking a woman to death on the ground that we could legally shoot him in the head and we should do it. Must have taken should and mistaken it for "must" in my head, I hate women abusers.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

. Interesting read if nothing else. Sorry if it is only indirectly related to the original topic http://www.handgunsm...ppens_gunfight/

 

Good article. Thanks for posting it.

BTW, nice meeting you at GFH on Sunday.