A Witness Speaks........

[MarkWVU02 47]

"Zimmerman violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, which states, “it should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles.”"

 

From an article detailing the timeline of we events. Good article. Not saying immerman is guilty or Travon is innocent just want to know the facts, and I don't think either side is shooting straight.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/trayvon-martin-case-timeline-of-events/

[MarkWVU02 47]

Another good one that shows all the different witness accounts. Whose story do we believe? It could go either way but Zimmerman has the upper hand since Martin can't tell his story. The key thing is Martin's girlfriend hearing him say "why are you stopping me" at this point a stranger is stopping you at night in an unfamiliar neighborhood it isn't a stretch to believ that Martin could've also feared for his life. It's a sad situation because It appears both did things wrong. I ultimately feel Zimmerman is to blame because he shouldn't have been armed and shouldn't have pursued.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

I ultimately feel Zimmerman is to blame because he shouldn't have been armed and shouldn't have pursued.

 

Here's the thing - we don't know if he was patrolling for neighborhood watch or if he was just getting home from somewhere. Also - If you could legally be armed, why wouldn't you be? If we had CCW here, I'd be armed ALL THE TIME.

[johnp 45]

Even if he did have a screwdriver and jewelry doesn't necessarily make him some burglar. No charges were filed in connection with any burglary. You use that as evidence that he's some awful kid but won't look at the assault on a police officer and 2 DV's that Zimmerman was accused of and think for a second maybe this guy was a loose cannon. I'll keep going man don't you worry, what am I going to get banned for stating my opinion and refuting some of yours?

 

Even if he wasn't charged with burglary, a bag with womens jewlery and a screwdriver is pretty suspicous. Also you are being pretty paranoid about getting banned, Maksim never said he would ban you for stating your opinion.

[MarkWVU02 47]

 

 

Here's the thing - we don't know if he was patrolling for neighborhood watch or if he was just getting home from somewhere. Also - If you could legally be armed, why wouldn't you be? If we had CCW here, I'd be armed ALL THE TIME.

 

Most of what I've read states he was patrolling for NW. I don't disagree with you on carrying because I would but I also wouldn't volunteer for a job that tells me not to carry. I'm not arguing te legality of him carrying just he shouldn't be carrying in that situation if that's part of being NW.

 

Another good article from the Miami Herald that's about as recent as can be. Notice know mention of Martin's burglaries.

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/2718130/sanford-cops-wanted-to-charge.html

[MarkWVU02 47]

 

 

Even if he wasn't charged with burglary, a bag with womens jewlery and a screwdriver is pretty suspicous. Also you are being pretty paranoid about getting banned, Maksim never said he would ban you for stating your opinion.

 

Know not worried about. Believe me it looks real suspicious. My point is you can't bring up things about Martins background (burglary? Weed possession, suspensions, etc...) and make him look like a criminal and not look at Zimmerman's past (assault on a police officer, 2 DVs, a history of 911 calls about suspicious people) and not think twice about him. I'm trying to be as fair as possible about it. Looks like neither one were upstanding people. I just have seen a lot of things that point the finger at Zimmerman.

 

Either way this case is going to hurt our cause and I fear what the outcome could be with rioting and civil disorder. Scary sh*t man.

[Kaiser7 33]

Know not worried about. Believe me it looks real suspicious. My point is you can't bring up things about Martins background (burglary? Weed possession, suspensions, etc...) and make him look like a criminal and not look at Zimmerman's past (assault on a police officer, 2 DVs, a history of 911 calls about suspicious people) and not think twice about him. I'm trying to be as fair as possible about it. Looks like neither one were upstanding people. I just have seen a lot of things that point the finger at Zimmerman.

 

Either way this case is going to hurt our cause and I fear what the outcome could be with rioting and civil disorder. Scary sh*t man.

 

 

Well, I think the reason so many bring up Trayvon's history is because the media was QUICK to pounce on Z's past. After all, look at the stock photos they use, they use a 5 year old out-dated pic of Trayvon, and a mugshot of Zimmerman. That is NOT equal treatment. Hell, that is essentially going against the whole, "innocent until proven guilty" thing and basically presenting Zimmerman as if he has already been convicted by his peers (Which, if this does go to trial, is likely simply due to public oppinion over the case, and the biased media reporting.)

 

Actually, if rioting occurs, it removes all credibility from the opposition. IF large riots occur, there's probably a greater chance of more property damage, injury, and even death. It would be ironic, in fact, that more harm would be done in an effort to condemn "gun violence" than was caused by the gun in the first place.

 

Oh, and I thought this was interesting.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/obama-campaign-hoodies-sale-cancelled-controversy-183726871.html

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Actually, if rioting occurs, it removes all credibility from the opposition. IF large riots occur, there's probably a greater chance of more property damage, injury, and even death. It would be ironic, in fact, that more harm would be done in an effort to condemn "gun violence" than was caused by the gun in the first place.

 

Small "Riots" have occurred. Some kids in "Protest" went through and trashed a 7-11 in Miami..

[BarkNBite 15]

What riots..........? Where..........?

[MarkWVU02 47]

I'd like to know too since I haven't seen any news of this anywhere. Not saying it hasn't happened just can't find it anywhere.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/03/no-justice-no-peace-trayvon-protesters-ransack-walgreens-store-video/

[MarkWVU02 47]

 

 

 

Well, I think the reason so many bring up Trayvon's history is because the media was QUICK to pounce on Z's past. After all, look at the stock photos they use, they use a 5 year old out-dated pic of Trayvon, and a mugshot of Zimmerman. That is NOT equal treatment. Hell, that is essentially going against the whole, "innocent until proven guilty" thing and basically presenting Zimmerman as if he has already been convicted by his peers (Which, if this does go to trial, is likely simply due to public oppinion over the case, and the biased media reporting.)

 

Actually, if rioting occurs, it removes all credibility from the opposition. IF large riots occur, there's probably a greater chance of more property damage, injury, and even death. It would be ironic, in fact, that more harm would be done in an effort to condemn "gun violence" than was caused by the gun in the first place.

 

Oh, and I thought this was interesting.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/obama-campaign-hoodies-sale-cancelled-controversy-183726871.html

 

Probably since it's easier to find out things about Z's 3 arrests since they're police issues. The mugshot was probably obtained through the police and Martin's through the school (looked like a school photo to me...not 5 years old but a little out dated). Digging up info on Martin is tougher since school records are private and supposed to be protected. Whoever leaked the info at the school is probably risking losing their job. It's amazing how many things have been faked to make Martin look worse (photos, twitter account) but all Z's arrests are legit and actually on record.

 

Obama selling a sweatshirt has nothing to do with this. The article states the republicans sell hoodies. What's the big deal? I own a bunch of hoodies am I a criminal? I wore a hoodie today to work am I supporting this case? No, it's just a damn hooded sweatshirt.

[greatgunstatenj 32]

"Zimmerman violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, which states, “it should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles.”"

 

From an article detailing the timeline of we events. Good article. Not saying immerman is guilty or Travon is innocent just want to know the facts, and I don't think either side is shooting straight.

 

http://abcnews.go.co...line-of-events/

 

Everything I've read said Zimmerman was on his way to the grocery store, he wasn't out "on patrol" so the manual doesn't apply. He was just a concerned neighbor who thought he saw someone up to no good. I'm sure we've all been in the situation, you see someone who is acting strange in your neighborhood and you want to know what's going down.

 

That ABC News article has a few inaccuracies and it links to an article about questionable police conduct which also isn't accurate. Zimmerman outweighs Martin by more than 100 lbs?

 

March 16th- None of this has anything to do with the actual case.

March 19th- Where did they get this manual? Does it say anything about a person coming home from running errands? It's FL, of course he would be armed.

March 20th- Who admitted this? The tape has been scoured by audiologists and they haven't determined he did utter a racist remark

 

The miami herald article is better but they still juice up the story "possible racial slur", "he tailed trayvon".

 

The bottom line is that the actual evidence seems to support Zimmerman's claim. The only witness who actually *saw* [not heard] what was going on does in fact have Zimmerman taking a beating from Martin. Zimmerman's injuries are further proof of his claims. Now, was his response to that over the top? Probably will be for a jury to decide. In my mind he did the right thing, someone is bashing your head into sidewalk, you have gun... you try to use it.

 

Martin's past makes him look like a thug or wannabe. 12 pieces of jewelry and a screw driver? Come on. Zimmerman is no saint but he wasn't breaking the law by confronting someone in his neighborhood.

[MarkWVU02 47]

 

 

Everything I've read said Zimmerman was on his way to the grocery store, he wasn't out "on patrol" so the manual doesn't apply. He was just a concerned neighbor who thought he saw someone up to no good. I'm sure we've all been in the situation, you see someone who is acting strange in your neighborhood and you want to know what's going down.

 

That ABC News article has a few inaccuracies and it links to an article about questionable police conduct which also isn't accurate. Zimmerman outweighs Martin by more than 100 lbs?

 

March 16th- None of this has anything to do with the actual case.

March 19th- Where did they get this manual? Does it say anything about a person coming home from running errands? It's FL, of course he would be armed.

March 20th- Who admitted this? The tape has been scoured by audiologists and they haven't determined he did utter a racist remark

 

The miami herald article is better but they still juice up the story "possible racial slur", "he tailed trayvon".

 

The bottom line is that the actual evidence seems to support Zimmerman's claim. The only witness who actually *saw* [not heard] what was going on does in fact have Zimmerman taking a beating from Martin. Zimmerman's injuries further proof of his claims. Now, was his response to that over the top? Probably will be for a jury to decide. In my mind he did the right thing, someone is bashing your head into sidewalk, you have gun... you try to use it.

 

Martin's past makes him look like a thug or wannabe. 12 pieces of jewelry and a screw driver? Come on. Zimmerman is no saint but he wasn't breaking the law by confronting someone in his neighborhood.

 

There are two witnesses who both saw something. 1 that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and 1 that saw Zimmerman on top of Martin. Martin's gf seems to support the claim that Martin was attacked. I heard he was patrolling and was walking back to his car from walking to the grocery store (patrolling the area not shopping could be wrong but that's what I heard).

 

As far as the "evidence" supporting Zimmerman is pure opinion. Seems everything I say gets refuted but at least I provide links to prove my point.

 

What does Zimmerman's past make him look like then?

[db1775 4]

Probably since it's easier to find out things about Z's 3 arrests since they're police issues. The mugshot was probably obtained through the police and Martin's through the school (looked like a school photo to me...not 5 years old but a little out dated). Digging up info on Martin is tougher since school records are private and supposed to be protected. Whoever leaked the info at the school is probably risking losing their job. It's amazing how many things have been faked to make Martin look worse (photos, twitter account) but all Z's arrests are legit and actually on record.

 

Obama selling a sweatshirt has nothing to do with this. The article states the republicans sell hoodies. What's the big deal? I own a bunch of hoodies am I a criminal? I wore a hoodie today to work am I supporting this case? No, it's just a damn hooded sweatshirt.

 

Well, did you wear that hoodie to be in solidarity with Trayvon? If not, then it doesn't mean a thing. But, it is understood that the hoodie is now the weepy sentimental symbol du jour of The Struggle. Many aspects of this case are being deliberately confused and conflated. Zimmerman's ethnicity, for instance. He isn't a police officer and he may not be "white", by the common description. Yet somehow Martin's death is now linked inextricably with the Civil Rights movement and other high profile police-black/white-black confrontations, facts be damned. I even heard this case prominently compared by national personalities to the Emmit Till murder, which, if you know about that case, is laughable in almost every aspect. This is just a case about two people getting into a street fight with one dying. Except for the racial/ethic component this is, sadly, a very common occurence. I don't see how this is any different from what one reads over at NJ.com about Newark's daily troubles. It is just another senseless fight. But people won't let it be resolved as such, and they're using the hoodie to drive that sympathy/rage.

 

So, the hoodie is the symbol, and the President has come down definitively on one side of this issue. Then his campaign starts selling hoodies. It is just poor timing, unless he was trying to make that connection, which is not knowable at this point. In any event, now he's pulled the hoodie. Why, if it is just a hoodie?

[BarkNBite 15]

A house divided cannot stand.............A. Lincoln.

[Nikos 31]

Spike Lee is tweets wrong G.Zimmerman address to his 240K followers.

 

http://www.syracuse....von_martin.html

 

[db1775 4]

Speaking of The Hoodie and it's newfound symbolic power . . . http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/dem-pulled-house-floor-trayvon-hoodie/450891

[greatgunstatenj 32]

There are two witnesses who both saw something. 1 that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and 1 that saw Zimmerman on top of Martin. Martin's gf seems to support the claim that Martin was attacked. I heard he was patrolling and was walking back to his car from walking to the grocery store (patrolling the area not shopping could be wrong but that's what I heard).

 

As far as the "evidence" supporting Zimmerman is pure opinion. Seems everything I say gets refuted but at least I provide links to prove my point.

 

What does Zimmerman's past make him look like then?

 

Way to split hairs, OK, technically you are correct about more than one witness seeing something. However, only one saw it from the beginning when the screaming was going on [that we know of at least]. The others saw it after Trayvon had been shot and Zimmerman was "holding his hand on his neck". I'd guess he was feeling for a pulse, the witnesses made it sound like they were holding him down. Those other witnesses only heard the commotion.

 

Are you serious with the links? You want me to link to every story out there? From their own words you, yourself, can determine what the witnesses did and did not see. The two women clearly stated that they didn't see anything prior to Zimmerman standing over Trayvon's dead body. One witness [Cutcher] said, "There was screaming, then a shot, then the screaming stopped so it must have been Trayvon". That is the logic of a moron, I certainly hope that wasn't the teacher [that the police officer inappropriately corrected]. She is actually on video making that statement at a rally with Martin's parents, blonde woman with a female roommate. Perhaps the screaming stopped because Zimmerman no longer needed help to stop Martin from bashing his head into the concrete???

 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html

- scroll to "Witnesses" Cutcher clearly states they didn't see anything - she "feels" like it was Trayvon crying out. Yeah, let's go with her gut.

- Martin's GF - She got the "impression" the headset fell from his ear? She didn't see, she heard. For all she knows the noise could have been his hoodie scuffing against his ear piece as he threw a punch. Speculation at best, I'm not ready to convict based on an "impression".

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

- Last few paragraphs. "One witness... saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him... and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help." I'll take unequivocal over "feels" and "impression" any day.

 

You "heard" he was patrolling? From who? Google map Retreat @ Twin Lakes in Sandford and tell me if you see a grocery store within their community gates. I've not read one article that says he was patrolling. Those two links above agree.

 

As for your comment about the "evidence" supporting Zimmerman being opinion. Please try looking at this objectively. You seem to be using the logic of witness Cutcher. Making assumptions based on only part of the story. If you choose to selectively look at evidence and throw up garbage people will refute it.

 

As an aside, eyewitness testimony is probably the worst type of evidence. Completely unreliable and probably shouldn't even be allowed in a court of law. Hundreds, if not thousands, of social and psychological experiments have confirmed that fact. That being said, I'll take an eyewitness over an ear witness any day!

[greatgunstatenj 32]

Spike Lee is tweets wrong G.Zimmerman address to his 240K followers. http://www.syracuse....von_martin.html

 

Yeah, pretty ridiculous. I hope nothing bad happens to those folks.

[BarkNBite 15]

They never cease to amaze me..............

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Yeah, pretty ridiculous. I hope nothing bad happens to those folks.

 

Well with all the threats, they had to flee their house. I'd say that's pretty bad.

[BarkNBite 15]

IMO........They should sue him on invasion of privacy laws................or have him locked up for deliberate action.

[greatgunstatenj 32]

I'd say that's pretty bad.

IMO........They should sue him on invasion of privacy laws................or have him locked up for deliberate action.

 

Agree with both! At least they got out alive!

[db1775 4]

So, I guess this is getting either fairly serious or ridiculous, now that elected representatives are being removed from the floor of the House for wearing hoodies and other congresspeople unilaterally declaring this a hate crime, others claiming Martin was "executed" and "hunted down". If Zimmerman is not, at the very least, indicted there will be problems down there.

 

Maybe some of the LEO fiolks can provide more insight, but does the fact that he wasn't arrested the night of the shooting, and the eyewitness testimony supporting his story, make it less likely that he'll be indicted?

 

I really don't see how this ends well, if Casey Anthony could be found innocent with the physical evidence against her, how could this guy with all of the reasonable doubt and total lack of clarity in the facts of the case be indicted and convicted? And if he isn't satisfactorily dealt with, we can all guess what might ensue.

[MarkWVU02 47]

 

 

Way to split hairs, OK, technically you are correct about more than one witness seeing something. However, only one saw it from the beginning when the screaming was going on [that we know of at least]. The others saw it after Trayvon had been shot and Zimmerman was "holding his hand on his neck". I'd guess he was feeling for a pulse, the witnesses made it sound like they were holding him down. Those other witnesses only heard the commotion.

 

Are you serious with the links? You want me to link to every story out there? From their own words you, yourself, can determine what the witnesses did and did not see. The two women clearly stated that they didn't see anything prior to Zimmerman standing over Trayvon's dead body. One witness [Cutcher] said, "There was screaming, then a shot, then the screaming stopped so it must have been Trayvon". That is the logic of a moron, I certainly hope that wasn't the teacher [that the police officer inappropriately corrected]. She is actually on video making that statement at a rally with Martin's parents, blonde woman with a female roommate. Perhaps the screaming stopped because Zimmerman no longer needed help to stop Martin from bashing his head into the concrete???

 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html

- scroll to "Witnesses" Cutcher clearly states they didn't see anything - she "feels" like it was Trayvon crying out. Yeah, let's go with her gut.

- Martin's GF - She got the "impression" the headset fell from his ear? She didn't see, she heard. For all she knows the noise could have been his hoodie scuffing against his ear piece as he threw a punch. Speculation at best, I'm not ready to convict based on an "impression".

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

- Last few paragraphs. "One witness... saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him... and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help." I'll take unequivocal over "feels" and "impression" any day.

 

You "heard" he was patrolling? From who? Google map Retreat @ Twin Lakes in Sandford and tell me if you see a grocery store within their community gates. I've not read one article that says he was patrolling. Those two links above agree.

 

As for your comment about the "evidence" supporting Zimmerman being opinion. Please try looking at this objectively. You seem to be using the logic of witness Cutcher. Making assumptions based on only part of the story. If you choose to selectively look at evidence and throw up garbage people will refute it.

 

As an aside, eyewitness testimony is probably the worst type of evidence. Completely unreliable and probably shouldn't even be allowed in a court of law. Hundreds, if not thousands, of social and psychological experiments have confirmed that fact. That being said, I'll take an eyewitness over an ear witness any day!

 

Obviously you're missing the point of my posts. A lot of people are stating things as facts on here when in all honesty none of us know what happened (the pictures the twitter). I'm offering some other views and opinions here because I feel that's how we all form an opinion by looking at all sides. I feel many here are biased because if it turns out Zimmerman attacked Martin it could really hurt gun rights. Neither witness saw any attack so it is possible either could have been the instigator. No one saw any attack only two people on the ground so it's possible it could've happened either way. Is it really hard to believe Zimmerman grabbed Martin and Martin, an athlete, was able to get the upper hand. Is it possible to believe that Martin might have been the one acting in self defense.

 

A lot of people in here are portraying this kid as some seasoned thug and want to paint Zimmerman as a hero. The truth probably is they both weren't model citizens. People are ignoring the fact that he had an assault on a police officer and 2 domestic violence charges. So if Martins past makes him a thug Zimmerman's past portray him as a violent confrontational person (you know the kind that might take the law into his own hands).

 

Look I'm not saying Zimmerman is guilty and Martin is innocent but many of the people on this board are posting flat out lies (once again the picture and twitter account). We probably have something in common...we both want to know the truth. If Zimmerman attacked Martin he belongs in jail...if Martin attacked Zimmerman he deserved what he got, but until we know the truth there's nothing wrong with a little debate about it. But to say because someone saw Maryin on top of Zimmerman after the fight started doesn't mean anything. I've seen fights get started that ended with the aggressor on the ground getting the sh*t beat out of them. Haven't you?

[MarkWVU02 47]

I'm not saying link everything but if you read something important to the case it takes less than a minute to link it. A lot of people post stuff here as fact when in fact they're not.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Keep this up and this thread will rival Ray's Zombie thread...

[MarkWVU02 47]

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/03/no-justice-no-peace-trayvon-protesters-ransack-walgreens-store-video/

 

Thanks for the link Nick. I wish kids would realize it doesn't help their cause to do sh*t like this. I hope everyone else realizes this should have no bearing in the case. Either way we should all be worried. This case goes to trial I see Zimmerman getting acquitted which could spell a lot of trouble. Maybe time to buy a little more ammo.

[MarkWVU02 47]

I also never said I took any witness as truth. Everyone else keeps bringing up the witness, who didn't see the start of the fight, and I offered others. You say in one sentence that you'll take some guys "unequivocal" statements then end you post by say we shouldn't rely on witnesses. Which one is it? Like I said I'm just posting here and reading to come up with my own opinion of the case.