AR10 or a Sig 716?

[Wojo 98]

I am considering getting a 16" Carbine in 308.

 

Years ago I had an AR10T 24"HB that was a tack driver but very ammo sensitive, so I sold it. I want reliability. And at the time Armalite mags were around $75 a pop...talk about rape.

 

So, I have read the Armalite had gotten better with the AR10's and more reasonably priced mags and even some after market friendly magazine. Armalite also offers a variety of uppers for thier AR10 lowers, 260 Remington, 300 WSM and other flavors. But it is not a piston system.

 

Sig 716...stupid lead times right not. Uses P-Mags and is well, Sig quality.

 

I love M1A's, but, I am so trained on the AR platform, that keeping my muscle memory for stressful situations is more important then the ever consistant eye candy pressure I feel for a M1A. I have a few Garands to satisfy that need from time to time.

 

Any experience on the Sig 716?

[lunker 274]

As much as I like my Scout Squad, M1A's are also fairly ammo sensitive. They don't like steel cased much.

[raz-0 1,262]

ditched my AR-10.

 

I will give a couple pieces of advice.

 

1) think about what you want. Then think about it some more. Then don't cheap out and buy what you want. Tools for them cost more, parts cost more, and theres a LOT more parts incompatibility than an ar-15. You want a cool rail? Odds are a manufacturer's bulk disocunt beats your shopping skills, even if you don't buy the wrong thing.

 

2) Go with DPMS magazine compatibility, even armalite has given up and realized embracing the aftermarket worked better than isolating yourself from it.

[Wojo 98]

I wasn't even considering the steel stuff in a 308...yikes. How does it handle surplus, match, hunting ammo etc?

 

As far as Sex Appeal, to me the M1A is the schnizzle across the board. But the practical side of me wants that long continous rail with my optics right over the bore and close to my eye. If I got a Scout Squad, I'd spend alot more $$$ putting quad rails and other junk on it and then it looses its appeal to me. I like the M1A's bone stock, no optics. But, the eyes are getting older and they can't see what lurks in the night like Night Optics can.

[Wojo 98]

Yea I am learning towards the piston system on the Sig. I won't buy anything that has to do with DPMS, especially in 308. I've seen way too many problems and quality control issues first hand to even consider a DPMS, especially thier magazines.

[Shane45 807]

Wojo, to me the relevent question is simply, do you want a DMR style 308 or something as close to run and gun as you can get?

[Tactical Monkey 51]

Scar 17

KAC SR-25

LT Predator

LT PredatOBR

DPMS 308

 

the above (in no particular order) are all solid choices is a 16" configuration, with thoughts towards runing as a carbine. You could also run a M1A in a chassis, but damn those things are heavy...

[raz-0 1,262]

Yea I am learning towards the piston system on the Sig. I won't buy anything that has to do with DPMS, especially in 308. I've seen way too many problems and quality control issues first hand to even consider a DPMS, especially thier magazines.

 

Their .308 guns are much nicer than ther .233 guns. As for their mags, they are nicer than the tons of armalite/m14 frankenmags. They are also the same format as knights armament. The same format armalite started with. The same format as armalite is switching back to. The same format magpul makes mags in.

 

More than just dpms makes rifles that use those mags and uses the dpms upper receiver mating profile. You don't have to get dpms to get those, but you'll have the broadest compatibility and parts selection if you need work done.

[Wojo 98]

Thanks for all the comments and thought provoking remarks. I'm looking for the holy grail of course, 5'6", 34D-26-34, mute...no wait not that wish.

 

Shane - A shorter range DMR with the right optics say max 600 meters. But having the carbine format will allow for CQB if needed sporting a dot that is compatible with a 3x zoom or NV.

 

I will look into some of the other 308's, but quality and service is paramount.

[JimmyAGR 54]

I have a Larue OBR 16". It is a beautiful gun, though a bit heavy for run and gun. TM above note that Larue make lighter versions now that you may want to check out. They take P-mags. If you would like to try out the OBR let me know. It is a tack driver with the right trigger puller.

[Wojo 98]

Looks like Les Baer's octagon'ish reciever. Fluted barrel, nice touch. I'll have to look into it later in the day.

[Shane45 807]

Wojo, given your criteria I think it narrows the field a bit but this is based on a notion I have about rifle weight. Its my opinion that over 10lbs your in DMR territory and although you can possibly run it like an m4 it is less than ideal. For that holy grail we persue I believe the farther under 10lbs the better, but it has to be sub 10 kitted up. Bolt anything to that Sig and it will be well over 10. The rifles I think/know can pull it off are:

 

SR25 EMC (your wallet will scream!!!)

SCAR17 (Mags can be an issue)

Larue PredatOBR (Not a fan of Larue products but know many who are happy with their rifles)

JP LRP 07 (configured as a light weight rifle)(I know the least aboutt this rifle of the 4 but have heard it can be had in a very light config)

[Wojo 98]

The CQB would only be a secondary role. Certainly not considering having this hanging on a single point doing something like manning a check point. I never mentioned weight because I know that it will be heavy.

 

FWIW, I take a nightly stroll of about 2.5 to 4 miles carrying a 4' section of iron pipe filled with lead shot that weighs in at 24lbs. Why?...keep those muscles in shape to hump a heavy rifle and to make my walk a true work out ala CrossFit (lite) style. Other times, I do my walk with my 'training' pack on that weighs a little over 40lbs that contains 3 gallons of water for that sloshing effect and a few barbell plates and my faux rifle. My neighbors / police are very used to seeing me walk around at night. I just tell everyone that I have 3 daughters and need to be ready.

 

LaRue...nothing especially for or against them. I have a few of their mounts and am content with them. Handled the SCAR at the Police Expo in AC and when I was in Mexico City at thier Police / Military Expo when I was a presenter. Nice, but, I really didn't feel it when I was fondling it. Yea, the SR25 is out and from some of the reports I've read some time again, they aren't that great in dirty conditions without regular maintenance. The EMC might be a different animal that the older models.

 

Had a quick moment...that POF seems to met almost all of my desired features. I just need to vet them.

[Shane45 807]

Roger that, but I think the holy grail, what I call a multi role rifle, is achievable. Although humping the mass is certainly an issue, running the rifle is where I wrestle with the weight. Shooting on the scoot with a heavier rifle induces a lot more bob and weave, at least for me.

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

I have the JP LRP-07 with the 24" barrel and its a bear to lug around. I wish I got (had) the 18" hunter version at times but at the end of the day I am in the prone position shooting for groups so weight is inconsequential. If I had to get a lighter 308 semi auto my choices would be:

 

1. GA Precision GAP-10 (DI rifle)

 

2. POF p308 (same lower as the GAP but piston driven)

 

3. JP LRP-07 hunter version: great rifle but I cant justify having two of essentially the same thing....regardless of how many 1911's I own

[Dan 177]

I've been eying (more like dreaming about) the GA Precision GAP-10 in .260rem w/ 22" bbl.

[Shane45 807]

I have had a number of GAP rifles but for the life of me I cant warm up to the GAP-10. Im just not a fan of the POF rail system

[Shane45 807]

Why do you like them? In the case of your POF its required in that system to clear the piston system. But in the case of the GAP its DI so there is no real benefit that I can see to having such a high rail height. Hey I dont like the OBR rail system either because of its built in cant and I dont like the integral front sight in the SR25

[Wojo 98]

Interesting read on POF.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_126/567423_POF_USA_P_308_Review.html

[Shane45 807]

Meh.. everyone has a dud. My bet is this is a production unit during the time or right after the Hogan POF split.

[Wojo 98]

I hear ya, but someone before putting it in the box should've pulled that bad apple.

[specopsscout 26]

When I wanted a .308 16" I looked at a lot of stuff out there. Mags were a big concern especially here in NJ. I decided that I wanted something that would take PMags because they seemed to be the easiest to get in 15 rounders. I also wanted a Piston as well. I was leaning towards the LWRC REPR but then came across a POF. It was brand new and got a deal on it that I just could not pass up on. It has proved to be a good decision and have had no issues with it sofar.

 

I have a POF P308 Recon, as well. It's a great rifle...

[the_stranger 13]

I started to check out some of the Armalite's, but now I want to check out this when it comes out.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtLE90116S.aspx

[Tactical Monkey 51]

In addition to my list above, and along the comments of others:

 

LMT MWS - the monolithic rail make it a bit front heavy, but it shoots very well in both the DMR and CQB role. Regarding weight with a .308 plaform being utilizied in a carbine role - the MWS can get difficult to manage during a long COF involving movement... Ask Shane how I know

[Shane45 807]

sighewa, I know brother Still exploring the question. Its good information and discussion.Interestingly I have found Optics to be a BIG consideration in where the rifle lands, weight wise using my criteria of >10lbs = DMR and <10lbs being multi role. And the limitations of each type of optic is a big consideration as well. I have yet to find the holy grail of optics that can do it all well enough to make it truly well suitedin both roles with little compromise..

[njpilot 671]

Scott, if you'd like to check out the LMT MWS, let me know.

[Wojo 98]

Tactical - I'm guessing you mean as a civilian operator / contractor? I've done some stateside EP work and IIRC, the contractors typically where issued some standardized crap by their company in the 762x39 or 556 flavor. I've heard nothing but good things about Lewis.

 

Shane - the optics thing has plagued me for years. If I am going top shelf with the rifle, I will be spending good money on several optic systems for this. Primary something around the 1.5/2x to 7/8x with a BDC or illuminated Mil-Dot. A NV Gen2+ / 2x and some nice glass in the 4/5x -12/15x range. Not a huge fan of 50mm bells. Just way too much surface area to reflect back at your target. One Giant Squid Eye starting at you will get noticed.

 

The funny thing is, on my hunting 308 bolt gun, I have had the same Bushnell 3200 in 3x9 for at least 15 years and can't justify replacing it. Simple duplex that has a 2.88 MOA distance from the dot down the fine hair before it goes thick which puts me at about 1" high at 300 yrds with a 200y zero. That covers about 99% of all hunting conditions east of the Mississippi. My point is, we all tend to over anal-ize everything.

[Shane45 807]

HA you pretty much described all my associated optics for my 308. For it I have:

Acog TA11H-G (working on a proto BU RDS)

US Optics 1.5-6

Hensholdt 4-16

PVS14

The only one not on a QD mount is the USO but it will be in the near future.

[Wojo 98]

Damn Shane, you have a years' tution at an Ivy League you are looking thru. All nice choices.

 

Having fun here...is your daily ride / commuter vehicle worth more then this optics collection and the 308 they sit on?

[Shane45 807]

Hehehe, my daily ride is the slow one in the back. LOL they just happen to be in order from least to most driven!