Why no hand loads for Home Defense?

[Heavyopp 167]

Why is it that whenever you say your a reloader you always get the "hope you don't use them in your HD gun"?

 

"Instant jail if you actually shoot an intruder with a hand loaded bullet you made" is what I always hear -- My question is WHY?

 

Why would a bullet I made be any different then a bullet made by hornady. Forget about performance I want to know why I go to jail instantly if I use one of my hand loaded bullets to defend myself.

 

Jer

[SgtToadette 59]

Even though I'm rather new to firearms, I've learned quickly not to believe anything about NJ law without a reference to the statute (which I fortunately have on my phone for 24/7 reference )

[joshroz2 4]

I don't think most people are talking about laws, they are talking about reliability and quality control with that criticism.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Even though I'm rather new to firearms, I've learned quickly not to believe anything about NJ law without a reference to the statute (which I fortunately have on my phone for 24/7 reference )

 

you just provided the right answer..

 

why are you told that? because you roam amongst spineless sheep.. sheep who would rather fabricate lore than be educated on the law..

 

*a loaded mag is a loaded gun so all mags must be unloaded when transporting*

*your spouse using your gun to defend her life will end her up in jail*

*hollow point ammunition is illegal*

 

you could go on for days..

the reality is if you have to shoot someone in your home.. what happens after isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference.. and the reason for that is it is a clean shoot or it is not.. the bullet.. gun.. position of the moon.. etc.. is not going to have a whole hell of a lot to do with the outcome..

 

* was your life genuinely in danger *

* yes *

the end..

[vladtepes 1,060]

I don't think most people are talking about laws, they are talking about reliability and quality control with that criticism.

 

youd be surprised then.. I have literally heard on more than one occasion using anything other than factory loads would result in virtually instant jail..

[GRIZ 3,369]

If you shoot someone they're shot. It doesn't make a difference if its a factory load, one you loaded, or one I loaded. They are shot. There is no where I know of, that includes NJ, MA, NY, CA or anywhere else it is illegal use a handloaded cartridge for a legal purpose. There are a couple of factors that may make you consider use of handloads for SD.

 

The most important is forensic testing if there is a question regarding the SD situation. This means the police don't believe you and/or there is a need to counter other testimony or evidence.

 

You are approached by a group of thugs. They stop 50' from you, one pulls a knife and demands your money. You have no means to escape. Not because you have to but escape is the smart thing to do if you can. The guy with the knife approaches you and says he's going to cut your throat. You draw but he doesn't care. When he's 5' away you shoot and he goes down. Somene called the police and they arrive within seconds after you shot this guy, let's call him Joe All his friends say Joe never came near you he was 50' away. There are no other witnesses. Looks like you're going to jail. However, this is where the CSI guys will support your story.

 

The "boys from forensics" will do gunshot residue (GSR) tests on you and Joe's clothes. When you fire a handgun residue from the primer,powder, and bullet you will ger a small amount on your hand but most of it goes forward and spreads in a pattern like a shotgun. If you shoot Joe with say a Remington 158 gr SWC, catalog number 123ABC, the CSI guys will take your gun and that ammo and be able to duplicate the GSR pattern on Joe's clothes proving your story that he was 5' away and negating what Joe's friends said.

 

If you use a handload, say 5 gr of Unique under a 158 SWC, it could also be duplicated but the question remainsis that really what you had in your gun. There still can be doubt if you use a handload, there will be no doubt if you use a factory load.

 

The other argument is that if you use handloads you will be accused of assembling ammo that is more deadly. However, I have never heard this point being made in a criminal or civil trial.

 

The issue of the possible help GSR testing can give me is enough to make me carry factory loads for SD. Some people say its expensive but come on a box of factory ammo every year or so isn't going to kill you. If it does you probably can't afford a gun.

[Heavyopp 167]

You know who the last guy to tell me "instant jail" was... senior salesman at heritage guild in branchburg

 

as far as the scenario above and 50' away -- This is NJ -- I'm a civilian -- that happens to me I'm going to jail no matter where the guy was or what I shot him with

 

I'm talking in my house, no way of escape, kids in harms way, clean shoot.

 

Glad to hear the general consensus is it's all bull.

 

reliability -- I'd be willing to bet there are a quite a few more factory rounds that have failed to go boom than hand loads -- I've made 10 maybe 15 thousand rounds in my reloading career only 1 failed to go boom - it was my fault, and it never got loaded into the gun, primer flipped and went in backwards -- .223 in the AR.

[GRIZ 3,369]

I created the scenario above to help to explain GSR. I said you shot the guy when he was 5' away not 50'. I don't know where everyone gets the idea that in NJ you are always going to jail if you are involved in a SD shooting. (provided you are legally armed at the time).

 

I agree that properly handloaded and inspected ammo is as reliable as factory ammo. The point I was making is GSR patterns can be duplicated with no doubt after the facat while there would always be some doubt (and a lot more expensive testing you would have to pay for) if you use handloads.

 

[mcbethr 42]

I don't believe in instant jail either. Either you were right or wrong. But it's not always that easy. Sometimes Jail isn't instant, sometimes it builds over time.

 

If there is ever a grey area, all you need is a prosecutor who wants to make a name for himself. All you need is a blogger who exposes you as the town gun nut. That's when you are going to be painted as the nutcase who wanted to shoot someone with his +p+++ ammo. Just take a look at the Zimmerman case. That guy was free and clear until public opinion turned against him.

 

Think of it this way: You are at home during the day. You hear glass break. You are in your basement and get your gun from the safe. You walk upstairs and two Hispanic kids are in your living room poking around. You tell them to get out. One of them turns to face you and does something with his hands. You have no idea what he is about to do with his hands, but it can't be good and you shoot the guy facing you. You move to engage the guy running away and hold your fire because he is running out the door.

 

Everything is good, right? It's a good shoot.

 

The kid who got away is arrested by the police and claims that you said an ethnic slur before you shot the first kid. Hell, maybe you did, but you don't even remember. You were scared out of your mind. You just wanted them to leave and you weren't being polite.

 

Now the Courier Post is demanding investigations and Jessie Jackson is protesting outside city hall. Who does the prosecutor care about? You or his job?

 

Now think to yourself. At this point, do you want a cartridge called "Critical Defense" or some +P+++ that you cooked up in your basement? Remember Zimmerman. Even if you were right, public pressure may make you wrong. Don't create another problem by loading your own ammo.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I created the scenario above to help to explain GSR. I said you shot the guy when he was 5' away not 50'. I don't know where everyone gets the idea that in NJ you are always going to jail if you are involved in a SD shooting. (provided you are legally armed at the time).

 

I agree that properly handloaded and inspected ammo is as reliable as factory ammo. The point I was making is GSR patterns can be duplicated with no doubt after the facat while there would always be some doubt (and a lot more expensive testing you would have to pay for) if you use handloads.

 

I really agree with the CSI analogy. And hopefully the Cops find a weapon on the Perp with his prints on it, because in this day in age, even if your head gets bloodied-up from being slamed into a concrete sidewalk, the media is asking why you couldn't aim for the shoulder........

 

Factory ammo takes the entire home-made "Super Bullet" of DEATH out of the equation, and then the Cops have to buy their own box of bullets for testing (if they didin't confiscate yours as evidence, that is).

 

Reasonable doubt works both ways, so using factory ammo for SD is the best way to go!

 

Dave

[Heavyopp 167]

Homemade super bullet of death, +p++++ cooked up in my basement --- Why does everyone assume it some super hot, go thru 4 phone books, super hot load.

 

What if it's the other way around? I live in a house with walls and neighbors. I'm responsible for that bullet know matter where it goes. My target will be close range - within 10 feet

 

Why do i need a bullet that will penetrate the next 3 houses? I know this isn't the norm but I have a HD gun loaded with .38 wadcutters right now. I hope I never have to use it but if I do I want that bullet to stop in the perps T shirt on the way out. I like my neighbors, I don't want bullets entering their home.

 

 

Griz wrote --I created the scenario above to help to explain GSR. I said you shot the guy when he was 5' away not 50'. I don't know where everyone gets the idea that in NJ you are always going to jail if you are involved in a SD shooting. (provided you are legally armed at the time). --- My point here was - I'll never be legally armed in NJ outside my home. It's not possible for me, a mere mortal, here in NJ.

 

Currently, My HD rounds are no different than my everyday target rounds, I know where they will hit and can control the recoil with ease. Now maybe I'll get some up-armored super human who decides what I have is worth coming after but I doubt it. That just isn't the reality of what's going on around here.

 

Maybe I should just switch out to shotguns and shoot buckshot.

 

Jer

[mcbethr 42]

I don't know where everyone gets the idea that in NJ you are always going to jail if you are involved in a SD shooting. (provided you are legally armed at the time).

 

I think that part of the problem is that there are so few self defense shootings, that we just don't know. We don't have many examples to point to. I'd chalk this up to the low rate of gun ownership. You have to have a perfect storm (bad guy entering + someone home + homeowner with a gun) and that's a tough combination when gun ownership is between 12% and 14%.

 

Do a search for "self-defense" on NJ.com and you will find nothing recent. I think I looked through 10 pages until I just gave up. I believe there was a case a few years ago in Lakewood when somebody was shot coming through the window of a home and the homeowner was not charger. So there is some evidence that a good shoot won't bring charges. But for lack of a better term, self-defense shootings just don't happen in this state, so we don't have much to go on.

 

You can't control if a shooting happens. You can't control when. You can't control who is doing it. But you can control the ammunition. I can think of many bad reasons why not to use reloaded ammunition, and no good ones other than saving a few bucks. Why have another variable that you can't control?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

No "instant jail". No statute against it. And GRIZ with all due respect, GSR is a very close range phenomena - and your scenario about how do they know that is what was in your gun, plays just as effectively for factory ammo.

 

Massad Ayoob has recommended that factory ammo be used in your SD/HD gun so the prosecutor can't play fast and loose with that fact for an uncomprehending jury. "So, Mr Defendant, you made this ammunition yourself? Factory ammunition wasn't powerful enough?", you get the gist. I respect his opinion (and it is his opinion) in this matter, because he has been an expert witness in inumerable shooting cases and has seen this tactic first hand. As an ancillary recommendation to that dictum, he says that the best course of action when choosing SD/HD ammo is to find out what the local PD uses, and use the same thing. The prosecutor would have a bit of trouble twisting that.

 

To the OP, I wouldn't count on full wadcutters to expend all there energy in the target. They are poor expanders (unless they are hollowbase loaded backwards) and as such are more likely to pass through the target - even at low velocity - then a poperly expanded HP.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[djg0770 481]

As an ancillary recommendation to that dictum, he says that the best course of action when choosing SD/HD ammo is to find out what the local PD uses, and use the same thing. The prosecutor would have a bit of trouble twisting that.

 

PB - as you know anything ANYTHING can be twisted:

 

Prosecutor: What ammo did you use

Victim: Same as the police in my town

Pros: Oh so now you think you're a cop?

 

 

If they're out to get you, there's nothing you can do...

[Mikeythumbs 1]

Pizza Bob anwsered the question best i was going to say the same thing

[GRIZ 3,369]

No "instant jail". No statute against it. And GRIZ with all due respect, GSR is a very close range phenomena - and your scenario about how do they know that is what was in your gun, plays just as effectively for factory ammo.

 

Bob, with all due respect, you are correct that GSR patterns (also called tattooing) are a close range phenomena. That's why I said 5'. GSR generally is left in the 3-5' range but can be a bit further depending on caliber used. If can be farther than 5'. Most calibers used for SD will get to that 5' mark. If you're carrying a 22 with CB caps it won't.

 

Your argument about how do they know its factory ammo. if your gun is loaded with RP 158 SWC catalog ABC123 forensics can show:

 

1. The bullet is RP as determined by style and alloy.

2. Powder residue in the case is consistent with powder used for that load.

3. There are no resizing marks on the case.

4. Crimp marks are consistent with factory sample.

5. A primer sealant, if used, will not have been disturbed comparing it to a factory sample.

 

The only thing they can't show is the powder charge but unless you somehow pulled the bullet and changed the powder charge they can be pretty sure even if you load your gun with 6 different types of ammo.

 

I usually carry factory wadcutters in j frame revolvers. You are correct in saying they don't expand much if at all and they will penetrate soft tissue well. However, a wadcutter is already in an efficient shape that a hollowpoint has to expand a bit to get to. You are counting on that expansion in a JHP and it may not happen for a bunch of reasons. In soft tissue a wadcutter will tend to just cut its way through. Jim Cirillo spend a lot of time in the quest for the magic bullet and most of his designs looked like a wadcutter. As far as penetration in a hard object goes I have seen 125 gr +P JHPS penetrate one side of a mailbox from a 2". Lead bullets only dented it.

[JayWilling 33]

It's all about the lawyers. Following this discussion over the years I have been given the impression is that the factory ammo is a given...it's an established product that has certain characteristics. The forensics guys can get some and run tests. If I was to use home loads for SD I would label the balance of the box at home as "For my S&W Model 60". At least they could collect the rest and run tests. That seems to be the big argument.

The prosecutor accusing one of loading "super deadly" bullets could easily be dismissed by an attorney who isn't in it just for beer money. They could explain the load you made and "why".

 

In NJ if you shoot anyone for any reason your life turns to s**t, but at least you are alive.

[Heavyopp 167]

I can think of many bad reasons why not to use reloaded ammunition, and no good ones other than saving a few bucks. Why have another variable that you can't control?

 

How's this for a good reason -- It's what I practice with -- Train how your gonna fight

 

I haven't bought a factory centerfire pistol or rifle round in 20 years -- I enjoy reloading -- I'm going to use what I know if I ever need to defend what is important to me

 

 

I have learned something from this -- nobody knows for sure

 

Jer

[GRIZ 3,369]

If I was to use home loads for SD I would label the balance of the box at home as "For my S&W Model 60". At least they could collect the rest and run tests. That seems to be the big argument.

 

Well yes...and no. If they test your ammo they will get results but there would still be some doubt if that was actually shot. First of all it would require you to testfy in regards to the ammo. The prosecutor could ask you "you say the charge was 5.0 grs, could it have been 4,5 or 6.0". The only way you could prove what the charge was is if someone witnessed you load the rounds, loaded your gun and stayed with you at all times to ensure that was the round you fired or mark the rounds. Not a very practical solution. The prosecutor has to prove your guilt and its usually a bad idea for the defendant to testify, even if he's innocent.

 

The ammunition issues can all be addressed by using factory ammo.

 

Or the other hand, if you are claiming self defense somewhere along the line there has to be evidence and/or testimony that you are the one who shot the bad guy. If there were no witnesses that would have to be you.

 

There is no easy answer to how to deal with a SD shooting but the easy answer to avoid ammo issues is to use factory ammo.

[Socom 19]

I load all my SD rounds! .40 SW SGDHP 165 grns over 7.0 grns of WSF with a CCI # 500 primer. 1012 fps chrono'd. Load your own it feels good!

[vladtepes 1,060]

The prosecutor could ask you "you say the charge was 5.0 grs, could it have been 4,5 or 6.0".

 

and the answer to that question is this...

 

"sure.... it could have been 4.. 5.. 7.. or 20.. but none of that really matters does it.. since the guy who tried to kill me... and my family... is dead now...."

"variations in ammo are not exclusive to home loads.. "factory" ammo has been known to have variations.."

 

the ultimate fact is this.. there have been a million home defense shootings... some were likely done with some home brew ammo.. list some of them so we can see the details where someone was prosecuted because they used home done reloads.... id be interested to read them..

[GRIZ 3,369]

Vlad, no one is saying anyone will be prosecuted for using handloads. If you look my first post in this thread I said "if you shoot someone theyre shot". If you are in a courtroom and they are discussing what type of ammo you used you have bigger trobules. The point is you can take any adavantage the prosecutor has in the matter and perhaps turn it to your advantage by using factory ammo. A clear cut good shoot is a good shoot whether you do it with factory ammo, handloads, or an 8" howitzer.

[BCeagle 12]

The guy already hit on it, but I was always told it was for forensics. You say you used a handload that made X pattern but they compare it to another round or completely different round in your collection and get a different result. The guys at the local lab are not all CSi/Masuka from Dexter, they have a huge workload and just want to get through crap and can cut corners.

[tommy3rd 132]

The guys at the local lab are not all CSi/Masuka from Dexter, they have a huge workload and just want to get through crap and can cut corners.

you have to clarify that cutting corners would happen because of a scientist, not the lab system. There are systems in place (ISO/ASCLD and internal audits) to prevent or limit such things from happening.

[KpdPipes 388]

you just provided the right answer..

 

why are you told that? because you roam amongst spineless sheep.. sheep who would rather fabricate lore than be educated on the law..

 

*a loaded mag is a loaded gun so all mags must be unloaded when transporting*

*your spouse using your gun to defend her life will end her up in jail*

*hollow point ammunition is illegal*

 

you could go on for days..

the reality is if you have to shoot someone in your home.. what happens after isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference.. and the reason for that is it is a clean shoot or it is not.. the bullet.. gun.. position of the moon.. etc.. is not going to have a whole hell of a lot to do with the outcome..

 

* was your life genuinely in danger *

* yes *

the end..

Vlad is 100% Correct....when it comes to the CRIMINAL aspect..however it doesnt just stop with the Criminal case. You can be cleared completely on Criminal charges, and STILL BE SUED by the family of the dead Sh!tbird. Remember that the Standards of Proof in Civil Cases fall below those of Criminal cases. While the ammunition you use wont be a factor in Criminal aspects, it MAY be used by a Civil Attorney to portray you as some crazed psycho. And before anyone starts with the Nonsense, there was a case not a while back where the Caliber used in a Defensive Shooting (10 mm) was used as the basis for a lawsuit because, according to the Plaintiff's attorney, it showed "He was looking for a fight to have a caliber that large". Remember, you can be sued by just about anyone, for just about anyTHING....and whether or not it goes to trial is entirely up to the Assignment judge, and more often than not, they'll cop out and give the old "Lets see what the Jury Says". Look at people on this site, and others and how they speak about Jury Duty, and how they get out of it, and ask yourself, do I REALLY want to place the well-being of my family in the hands of these people???

 

Now, WILL it be a factor? probably not, but it CAN be a factor. IIRC this whole issue stems from an article written by Ayoob god it has to be over 20 years ago now, where he said that in his opinion, anyone who used handloads in a defense firearm could be asking for trouble in having a civil attorney attempt to portray them as some drooling psycho sitting in his basement laughing maniacally as he tried to make the deadliest ammunition he could. Hyperbole?? yeah, but after seeing some of the absolute crap done in the court system over the years, i dont trust Civil attorneys as far as i can throw them.

[woodentoe 14]

Vlad is 100% Correct....when it comes to the CRIMINAL aspect..however it doesnt just stop with the Criminal case. You can be cleared completely on Criminal charges, and STILL BE SUED by the family of the dead Sh!tbird. Remember that the Standards of Proof in Civil Cases fall below those of Criminal cases. While the ammunition you use wont be a factor in Criminal aspects, it MAY be used by a Civil Attorney to portray you as some crazed psycho. And before anyone starts with the Nonsense, there was a case not a while back where the Caliber used in a Defensive Shooting (10 mm) was used as the basis for a lawsuit because, according to the Plaintiff's attorney, it showed "He was looking for a fight to have a caliber that large". Remember, you can be sued by just about anyone, for just about anyTHING....and whether or not it goes to trial is entirely up to the Assignment judge, and more often than not, they'll cop out and give the old "Lets see what the Jury Says". Look at people on this site, and others and how they speak about Jury Duty, and how they get out of it, and ask yourself, do I REALLY want to place the well-being of my family in the hands of these people???

 

Now, WILL it be a factor? probably not, but it CAN be a factor. IIRC this whole issue stems from an article written by Ayoob god it has to be over 20 years ago now, where he said that in his opinion, anyone who used handloads in a defense firearm could be asking for trouble in having a civil attorney attempt to portray them as some drooling psycho sitting in his basement laughing maniacally as he tried to make the deadliest ammunition he could. Hyperbole?? yeah, but after seeing some of the absolute crap done in the court system over the years, i dont trust Civil attorneys as far as i can throw them.

 

 

Do you happen to recall the name of the case and if it went to trial? I'm curious and interested.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Since I'm an old fart, I'll admit to reading several articles by Ayoob. Lots of them more than 20 odd years ago too! The one being referenced here in this thread is VERY legit. I remember it well!

 

I also vaguely remember reading about some civil suit involving ammo. Perhaps the NRA's American Riflemen Magazine's Morgue could be consulted in an attempt to procure more info?

 

Dave

[KpdPipes 388]

Do you happen to recall the name of the case and if it went to trial? I'm curious and interested.

 

The shooter was Harold Fish. it was initially classified as justifiable by the Investigators, then prosecutors bowed to political pressures and went after Fish going so far as THREE no-bills by grand juriies until they got an indictment..and one of the things they used to try and justify that was the Caliber of handgun he used

[GRIZ 3,369]

IIRC the prosecutor brought up the fact that Fish had a 10mm and ready for this, remember this is AZ, used hollowpoints. The Fish shooting was before AZ passed its stand your ground law. What saved Fish was that there was certain evidence the judge did not allow and the AZ Supreme Court said the stand your ground law should have been retproactive. Fish being found not guilty does not prevent the assailant's family from pursuing a civil suit. Remember OJ Simpson? A good attorney prosecuting a civil case will bring up what color socks a shooter had on if it will help his case. What makes you think he won't attack the ammo you used.

 

There was also a case in NJ Ayoob talks about where GSR was used to convict a murderer. Once again IIRC, the murderer claimed the victim commited suicide but GSR testing proved the victim would have had to have arms 6' long not to leave GSR.

[Jon 264]

I prefer to use factory loaded ammunition for duplication's sake as Griz mentioned, as well as being IMO more reliable(I still visually inspect all cartridges before loading up for SD purposes). However, if I'm returning from the range and drop my range bag(containing only reloads in the magazines) in the foyer, and someone breaks in at that moment, I will not hesitate to charge my range gun with reloaded range ammo and prepare to defend myself with it.