Questions about LEO Authorities on Private Property

[TheDon 3]

First, I want to establish that I have the utmost respect for our local PD from the Chief and his administrative staff down to the newest patrolman. However, I had an encounter with our local PD on Saturday night and I am a little hesitant to believe that everything went by the book. It was generally pleasant with a positive and appropriate outcome, so I am not complaining. But I do have a couple questions:

 

Background: My sons had 6 of their highschool friends over for a pool party and one of my passive-aggressive neighbors called the cops because they were entertaining themselves with some class C fireworks. It was well past 9:00 and dark outside. My back yard is completely fenced (because of the pool) but my front and side yards are not.

 

1. Are LEO allowed to come onto private property, lurk behind the cover of shrubbery, and observe people in their back yard without announcing their presence? I don't know how long they were there, but the officers admitted to observing the party from the side yard; which they could not have done unless they were in my shrubbs (the shrubbs obscure any view into my back yard from my side yard).

 

2. Are LEO allowed to un-latch the gate of a fenced-in back yard and enter without announcing themselves or requesting permission to enter? I did not notice their presence until they were inside my back yard (I suspect it was the sound of the gate closing that got my attention) and they did not identify themselves until I started to approach them.

 

3. I own a Briard (see my avatar) who would defend his flock (my kids) to the death. Luckily, I had him inside the house for his safety with the kids shooting roman candles. If he had been out, he would most certainly have challenged the officers as they entered my back yard. Would the officers have been allowed to use deadly force against him?

 

4. Is it a reasonable procedure for the junior officer to stand off from the senior officer with his right hand on his hip while the senior officer interviews the homeowner? This; with 8 teenagers standing around?!?!

 

Again, the encounter ended positively and I received only a stern warning. Both patrolmen's behavior otherwise was professional and we had a reasonable conversation. But all day today I kept thinking about how many ways things could have gone very very very badly. I was curious as to the thoughts of LEO forum members on how this played out.

 

Thanks.

Edited September 3, 2012 by TheDon

[tommy3rd 132]

the one phrase i see all the time is "probable cause", which I believe gives them the authority to do what they did. I think a complaint from a neighbor is a good enough reason to investigate the problem/issue.

[bhunted 887]

Not to get off topic, you really have one of those dogs? How cool is that! Never saw one in real life all these years except in that cartoon. And yea, what he said... ^^^

[XDJohnTact 49]

Not to be negative, but I would not jeopardize my ability to own guns over some roman candles and sparklers? If the LEOs wanted to be dicks, they could have really jacked you up. Once the neighbors called in, I think the LEO has the right to investigate the complaint, including entering your yard.

[heaterbob 53]

sounds like you and the kids got off lucky, in the prnj you could get a $500 fine and suspension of drivers liscence for 6 months for fireworks.

[NJSigfan 218]

While I'm not a LEO, I do believe they need to "announce" themselves by using the front door. And before anyone jumps on me, here is my rationale for my thoughts.

 

I live in an area that does not have it's own PD, we are patrolled by the NJSP. When we first moved in 3 yrs ago, my kids (all under 5 at then time) or my dog tripped our house motion sensor alarm a few times. When the NJSP responded the first unit knocked in the door, while the second unit waited at the side of the house by his cruiser. Neither two man team walked around or entered the fenced yard but both teams clearly hand their hands on there service weapon.

 

The second time it happened, the first team knocked on the door while the second team again waited by their cruiser. Since we did not answer the door (we were in the backyard bbq'ing) the second unit walked to the side and announced themselves as "state troopers" is anyone home. They did not open the gate and truthfully we only heard them cause my rottie ran to the gate with a purpose.

 

In both instances, the troopers were nice and only walked or checked the house/property once we acknowledged them and their request to check the property.

 

In short, I do believe they need to announce themselves unless they feel a potential threat to their lives.

[Wojo 98]

You (your kids) were breaking the law. LEO's followed SOP.

[jrfly3006 42]

There is no need to announce.in terms of responding to a house alarm and if there was someone had indeed broken into the residence..knocking on the front door would not be the smartest idea..they can reasonably inspect the property to insure no illegal activity has occurred..this includes entering an open door if contact was unable to be made with homeowner..with regards to the fireworks they can enter the backyard if they had cause to believe dangerous (at least considered dangerous in this state ) activity was occurring and to cease it in the interest of safety..I agree with heater bob..you got a break..some guys love confiscating that stuff and the towns love that fine money..but hey they realize kids were just being kids

[Babyface Finster 45]

Do you have any "Beware of Dog" signs posted? Just curious, as I would hope that LE would not just barge in on fireworks complaint of they knew there was a dog present.

[BCeagle 12]

I would start planning to take revenge on your neighbors. Nosy Nellys. Report anything they do repeatedly. Maybe start a boundary dispute.

[BlueLineFish 615]

If my neighbors were illegally lighting off fireworks i would tell them to stop. If they didnt i would call the cops too. I will never get the allure of fireworks. Especially in an urban setting. Its wreckless. If any kid got hurt because you were letting them play with fireworks you could be charged criminally and civilly. Rightfully so

[mipafox 438]

3. I own a Briard (see my avatar) who would defend his flock (my kids) to the death. Luckily, I had him inside the house for his safety with the kids shooting roman candles. If he had been out, he would most certainly have challenged the officers as they entered my back yard. Would the officers have been allowed to use deadly force against him?

 

Umm...

 

Nevermind.

[silverado427 10,793]

I would start planning to take revenge on your neighbors. Nosy Nellys. Report anything they do repeatedly. Maybe start a boundary dispute.

That sounds like something a d bag would do

[bhunted 887]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Remember, you have to live next to these people. In turn, spiteful vengeance can become an evil war.

 

Recent case scenario with the neighbor behind me. We coincide fine together. As men, we get along fine. Help each other, etc. the evil end is his wife and kids. They believe it is ok for them, but nobody else. Now they've been there well over 20 some years. Me, over 54... So there is not much you can tell me.

 

Around the end of June, someone back there threw one helluva kegger for their family and friends. Our bedroom over looks their backyard. To say the least, it was a night of hell. No sleep and my blood pressure was over the roof. Wife told me to call the cops. I did not want to. I figured I 'd give them the benefit of he doubt because they rarely if ever do it. So I sucked it up and by midnight, a bad storm came in and washed their party out. Fews days later, during the week, they started acting up a bit again. I'm guessing at this point it was their kids. Again, I let it slide. Then a week later, again and again. I said fook it! I called the cops. I said to them the are decent neighbors, but they need to keep the loudness down. Now I tolerate it till 10PM, then screw it.

 

Now, his wife's attitude is, "how dare someone call the cops on my kid... Shes having a party"... This was something she said to me years ago when her daughter graduated HS, now 22... I just shook my head. My response would have definitely pist her off. Of which, "how dare you feel it's ok to disrespect your neighbors?", "you would not be happy if I sat with my fooking Harley running under your bedroom window all night would you?"

 

"Now, nothing personal to the OP here, but this seems to be your mentality...."

 

Sooooo, just the other day, my neighbor came over to trim his bushes. We always bs while he is here, yada yada. I asked him about the late night kegger and my displeasure, and he clammed up a bit and mentioned his daughter. "I heard his name in the mix that night, so he was back stepping a tad in embarrassment..."

 

Then I mentioned the next few cases in which it was me that called the cops. I don't hide from nobody and wanted him to know. I could care less if he told his wife or not because her 'tude sux anyway about being neighborly. He apologized and said, why didn't you just come and knock on my door? I said why should I have too?

Why should I have to get dressed, get out of my warm bed just to ask you to stop doing something that you are all old enough and hopefully wise enough not to do?

He understood and gave me his cell for the future and apologized.

 

Now, do/did I want to wage war? Maybe with his wife if I ever have to. I'd probably just stick my wife on her and yell out "chick fight"... But honestly. Going back to the first part of my story. You have to live next to these people. It's not like it use to be years ago when neighbors are more like family. Hell, today, they are barely acquaintances. So be the better person. Accept your fate and do the right thing. Start a getting even scenario is a lose lose action.

 

 

 

 

I would start planning to take revenge on your neighbors. Nosy Nellys. Report anything they do repeatedly. Maybe start a boundary dispute.

 

 

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Typos courtesy Apple...

[TheDon 3]

All good points. But WTF was up with the Ptlm standing off the Cpl, with his hand on his hip?

 

bhunted,

Briards have to be one of the top 10 most awesome dogs. And, you have seen them:

Dennis the Menace (U.S.) - "Ruff"

My Three Sons - "Tramp"

Get Smart - Agent K-13 "Fang"

Married... with Children - "Buck"

Dharma & Greg - "Stinky"

Addams Family - "Them"

Top Dog - (Film starring Chuck Norris - 1995)

 

I love this clip even though the dog is at least 15 lbs overweight. I think it is because he has a broken ear, just like Sam on Loony Tunes: http://youtu.be/qOAPTVC3Bik

Edited September 3, 2012 by TheDon

[Jon 264]

While I can't be sure as I wasn't there, I can say that standing with your hand resting on your gun is a rather comfortable position, and most of the LEOs I work with routinely stand that way.

[TheDon 3]

If my neighbors were illegally lighting off fireworks i would tell them to stop. If they didnt i would call the cops too. I will never get the allure of fireworks. Especially in an urban setting. Its wreckless. If any kid got hurt because you were letting them play with fireworks you could be charged criminally and civilly. Rightfully so

 

Nothing left the physical confinds of my yard.

Kids getting hurt is a bunch of crap. 30 years ago, when you could get M80's and cherry bombs, yes. But today, all you can get is class C stuff. You would have to be a total tard to get hurt with class C fireworks.

[bhunted 887]

Comfy for sure. Got yelled at when I first started for putting my hands in my pocket when standing around. Never did that again.... Got to stick em somewhere... Lol.

Unlike how Al Bundy gets to do it.

 

While I can't be sure as I wasn't there, I can say that standing with your hand resting on your gun is a rather comfortable position, and most of the LEOs I work with routinely stand that way.

 

 

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Typos courtesy Apple...

[bhunted 887]

Wow! Never even heard of Briards before this post. Always thought they were just English Sheep dogs. Not the same thing? Started looking at goigle photos of them. Beautiful animals. Don't think I could tolerate all the hair though. My Jack Russell gives off enough hair as is and he's only 16lbs.

 

All good points. But WTF was up with the Ptlm standing off the Cpl, with his hand on his hip?

 

bhunted,

Briards have to be one of the top 10 most awesome dogs. And, you have seen them:

Dennis the Menace (U.S.) - "Ruff"

My Three Sons - "Tramp"

Get Smart - Agent K-13 "Fang"

Married... with Children - "Buck"

Dharma & Greg - "Stinky"

Addams Family - "Them"

Top Dog - (Film starring Chuck Norris - 1995)

 

I love this clip even though the dog is at least 15 lbs overweight. I think it is because he has a broken ear, just like Sam on Loony Tunes: http://youtu.be/qOAPTVC3Bik

 

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

[TheDon 3]

<snip>

"Now, nothing personal to the OP here, but this seems to be your mentality...."

<snip>

 

Seem to be reading a lot of your situation into mine. Teenagers having a poolparty and being loud at 9:00 on a Saturday night does not equal all-night kegger. No reason to presume that the situation was not safe and supervised or that I would not have willingly shut things down if a neighbor called on the phone and said they were trying to sleep.

[jrfly3006 42]

 

"All good points. But WTF was up with the Ptlm standing off the Cpl, with his hand on his hip?"

 

I wasnt there but sounds like good tactics..ptlm was observing whole area..hand ready to go if needed..watching his partners back..no need to be next to him so they both can be surrounded..now if he was behind him texting his gf id have a major issue with it

[TheDon 3]

Wow! Never even heard of Briards before this post. Always thought they were just English Sheep dogs. Not the same thing? Started looking at goigle photos of them. Beautiful animals. Don't think I could tolerate all the hair though. My Jack Russell gives off enough hair as is and he's only 16lbs.

 

 

 

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

Old English Sheepdog:

Briard:

[mipafox 438]

While I can't be sure as I wasn't there, I can say that standing with your hand resting on your gun is a rather comfortable position, and most of the LEOs I work with routinely stand that way.

 

This is not meant to be disparaging in any way. Simply coming from a different viewpoint, I open carry a firearm as much as you do, and I never rest my hand on my sidearm.

[Jon 264]

This is not meant to be disparaging in any way. Simply coming from a different viewpoint, I open carry a firearm as much as you do, and I never rest my hand on my sidearm.

 

Fair point. Personally I think it makes one appear lazy, as when I see someone standing in such a way they are usually slouching as well.

[BlueLineFish 615]

 

"All good points. But WTF was up with the Ptlm standing off the Cpl, with his hand on his hip?"

 

I wasnt there but sounds like good tactics..ptlm was observing whole area..hand ready to go if needed..watching his partners back..no need to be next to him so they both can be surrounded..now if he was behind him texting his gf id have a major issue with it

 

Agreed. Standard tactics. One interview one Overwatch area to look for possible threats. Obviously officer who was engaged in conversation couldn't watch his back. Not meant to be threatening but it's just SOP and good tactics

[RubberBullets 65]

Caller initiates a complaint, police investigate. Upon their arrival probable cause was probably obtained after hearing/seeing the fireworks from their vantage. If the officer had justifiable cause to enter the premise he was there legally. If the dog were to attack or pose a threatening situation, I would assume he would be justified in protecting himself. Its not what anyone wants to hear, but if the officer was doing his job its a sad circumstance. He certainly must feel threatened to be able to deal with the repercussions of discharging his firearm.

 

Sent from tapatalk deep within a bunker, lathered in hoppes and wrapped in tinfoil

[BlueLineFish 615]

 

 

This is not meant to be disparaging in any way. Simply coming from a different viewpoint, I open carry a firearm as much as you do, and I never rest my hand on my sidearm.

 

Gun in holster on a gunbelt supports hand and weight better. I carry on a thigh rig now but used to stand like that when people were around. It's also a form of protecting your weapon.

[jrfly3006 42]

 

 

This is not meant to be disparaging in any way. Simply coming from a different viewpoint, I open carry a firearm as much as you do, and I never rest my hand on my sidearm.

Most do it subconsciously as a form of weapons retention..nothing more scary than someone going for your gun..even the most expensive high tech carry holsters can be defeated by crap heads that practice and would love nothing more than to kill you with your own gun..

[mipafox 438]

 

Most do it subconsciously as a form of weapons retention..nothing more scary than someone going for your gun..even the most expensive high tech carry holsters can be defeated by crap heads that practice and would love nothing more than to kill you with your own gun..

 

I have had retention training and practice on the rare occasions that I get.

 

It's universally recognized as a threatening gesture, and I am much more likely to be drawn down on for it than a uniformed police officer. One out of fourteen people in my county have a License to Carry Firearms.

 

I think the original question had to do with the OP feeling threatened. I would feel threatened.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Honestly..if one feels threatened by that.....too bad. Maybe if strap was down buy hand just resting on top of weapon is not threatening. Keeping my weapon covered is more important that someone's feelings. Sorry