Pre-ban m1 carbine

[joshg138 0]

My co-worker recently was helping clean his father's house, and he came across a paratrooper M-1 carbine that was purchased in 1967. What is the legality of this firearm? Is it grandfathered in? If NOT, what should be done with it?

[ruger9 0]

I was told by my FFL that there is no such thing as "pre-ban" in NJ. If it meets the "assault rifle" criterion, it's banned...

 

I also had an M1, carbine, and it's not just the 30 round mags that are illegal- the GUN itself is, because it's on the list of banned weapons... doesn't matter if it's GI, or Universal, or whatever... if it's called an M1 Carbine, it's illegal in NJ. Mandatory 5 year sentence (so I was told.)

 

...but the Ruger Mini30 is legal... because NJ legislators are effing morons.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

There is NO SUCH THING as preban in NJ.

Any M1 carbine in the state at the present time is an ILLEGAL ASSAULT WEAPON unless the owner registered it at the outset of the Florio Ban and has maintained the assault weapon registration and sole possession since the ban went into effect (1991?)

 

GET THIS WEAPON OUT OF NJ IMMEDIATELY.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

The firearm would have had to be registered within a finite period of time around the time the AWB went into effect (1993). If your friend can't find a record of that happening, then the executor of the estate should surrender it to the NJSP for disposal. The answer nobody wanted to give.

 

There may be other (legal) recourses, but someone more knowledgable than me will have to provide them.

 

Adios,

 

PIzza Bob

[joshg138 0]

That's what I thought. I'll text him asap.

[ruger9 0]

Screw handing it over to the state police. I agree, get it out of the state, but someone will buy that gun... get it to an out-of-state gun show or something. I'm no expert on the subject either, but no way in hell would I surrender it to anyone for destruction. It's not necessary. It just needs to get out of NJ.

[71ragtopgoat 23]

Agreed. Get it out of NJ. If the guy has his heart set on surrendering it then at let turn it in for money at the next gun buy back.

But I would let it retire to PA myself.

[1563621 388]

Post on m1 carbine forum to sell. send to Out of state FFL. ship fedex. Legal.

[matty 810]

Why post his all over the interwebz? Couldn't you simply call or PM one of our friendly FFLs and ask the question?

[PK90 3,570]

IMHO, the infamous Carbine is legal to possess (non-paratrooper) in NJ for two reasons.

1. It is a standard US Carbine, so not banned by name.

2. It complies with the NJAG Directive and Admin Code.

 

That being said, if one does not have the finances or balls for a court battle, they should get it out of NJ.

 

Sent from my DROID4

[FishNJ 2]

I see lots of non nj-legal weapons for sale on gunbroker with nj ffls. ARs with flash hiders and bayonet lugs etc. Can you just check it in with an ffl for now until you figure out what to do? gets it out of his hands for now...

[ruger9 0]

IMHO, the infamous Carbine is legal to possess (non-paratrooper) in NJ for two reasons.

1. It is a standard US Carbine, so not banned by name.

2. It complies with the NJAG Directive and Admin Code.

 

That being said, if one does not have the finances or balls for a court battle, they should get it out of NJ.

 

Sent from my DROID4

 

Could you clarify? Because that doesn't make sense. It's either legal or it's not...? I see you're an FFL, so please, fill us in on the specifics? I'd love to keep my M1 (even tho the 30rd mags would still have to "disappear")

[ruger9 0]

IMHO, the infamous Carbine is legal to possess (non-paratrooper) in NJ for two reasons.

1. It is a standard US Carbine, so not banned by name.

 

 

Sent from my DROID4

 

Doesn't "M1 carbine type" (which is what it says on the banned list), ban the US M1 carbine? I wouldn't see why not, but then I also don't see how the Springfield M1A is legal... or the Mini14/30, or many others...

[PK90 3,570]

Why is a "Plainfield Machine Company Carbine" listed separate than a "M1 carbine type"?

Why are WASRs and Saigas overlooked? Are these not "Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms"?

 

BTW, these are rhetorical questions.

[halbautomatisch 60]

The firearm would have had to be registered within a finite period of time around the time the AWB went into effect (1993). If your friend can't find a record of that happening, then the executor of the estate should surrender it to the NJSP for disposal. The answer nobody wanted to give.

 

There may be other (legal) recourses, but someone more knowledgable than me will have to provide them.

 

Adios,

 

PIzza Bob

NO NO NO NO NO, please do not let a piece of history be destroyed!

 

Sell it to a NJ FFL (who can then sell it out of state) if you don't want to risk transporting it - they can pick it up at the father's house, or take it out of state and store it there until we can restore sanity to this state.

[The_Matrix 105]

This should not be posted on a public forum.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

This should not be posted on a public forum.

 

Which is exactly why I responded the way I did. I think you all know where my sympathies lie.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[kman 56]

Anyone in the same room as that gun in NJ is looking at 5 years in prison. If you bring it to a NJ dealer and he accepts it, he will put your name and address in his bound book and thereby create a paper record that will make an open and shut felony case against whoever brought it to the dealer even if you dont get pulled over on the way there. Four years later a state police officer looking over records could haul you to prison over this if you bring it to a NJ dealer. Have your friend call Evan Nappen right away and take his advice. Phone legal advice is free to ANJRPC members. And stop posting evidence of a felony all over the internet. What kind of friend are you-you are gonna get your friend a felony conviction at this rate. Keep your mouth shut. You think the police dont check these forums every now and then? This is a serious problem.

 

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

[GRIZ 3,369]

If the carbine was never registered it already is "illegal". Turning it in is the only legal option IMO.

 

If the carbine was registered the executor or administrator has X amount of time to dispose of it out of state (like 90 days).

 

That's it. No other legal ways to deal with it.

 

You can call Nappen or whoever you want but what I wrote are the only two legal options.

[302w 83]

Find a friend in PA or NYS and have them keep it for you. Legally, it is theirs, but you get the point. Bring some ammo up when you visit them and shoot it.

 

Significantly better than jail or having it recycled into soupcans.

[halbautomatisch 60]

If the carbine was never registered it already is "illegal". Turning it in is the only legal option IMO.

 

If the carbine was registered the executor or administrator has X amount of time to dispose of it out of state (like 90 days).

 

That's it. No other legal ways to deal with it.

 

You can call Nappen or whoever you want but what I wrote are the only two legal options.

You can sell it to an FFL. If you're that worried the NJSP is going to find out about it, sell it to an out of state FFL and have them come pick it up, NJSP will not be auditing an out of state FFL's books and that state's PD isn't going to care. The minute the gun is transfered to an FFL it is no longer illegal.

 

I think you're all worring entirely to much, I know NJ FFL's that buy M1 Carbines all the time from people that had no idea they were illegal. I haven't heard of anyone being arrested or prosecuted yet because they sold one out to a FFL. Have the dealer put in his A&D book that he received the rifle from the "Estate of (insert dead persons name here)", what are the cops or prosecutor going to do? Prosecute a dead man?

[TK421 2]

Why is a "Plainfield Machine Company Carbine" listed separate than a "M1 carbine type"?

Why are WASRs and Saigas overlooked? Are these not "Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms"?

 

BTW, these are rhetorical questions.

 

Let's face it the whole history of the NJ assault weapon ban is a rats nest of bs and pitfalls. One need go no further than the AG directive dated March 31, 1997 regarding the Colt Match Target and the Springfield M1A to see how screwed up and confused these people really are.

Both the Division of Criminal Justice and the State Police Firearms Unit have received a number of inquiries whether the Colt Match Target Rifle and the Springfield M1A are considered assault firearms under New Jersey law.

Based on our review of the law and the Attorney General guidelines, we conclude that neither of the two firearms are prohibited under State law.

The Colt Match Target Rifle, based on the manufacturer’s specifications, is a new line of rifles and is not part of the AR-15 series, and thus, is not prohibited under N.J.S.A.2 C: 39-1w(1).

Although this new rifle, may resemble the Colt AR-15, there have been substantial changes to the firearm, including the receiver which is not identical to an AR-15 receiver.

In addition, because of changes in the configuration of the firearm, the Colt Match Target Rifle is not substantially identical to a prohibited firearm and prohibited under this classification.

See N.J.S.A.2C:39-1w(2) and Attorney General’s Guidelines Regarding the “Substantially Identical” Provision in the State’s Assault Firearms Laws dated August 19, 1996.

The Springfield M1A is not one of the enumerated firearms which are specifically prohibited under the State’s assault firearms laws. It has been prohibited in this State as being substantially identical to a named firearm.

However, according to the manufacturer’s specifications, the M1A has been modified. The modified M1A, which became available in 1994, would not be considered to be substantially identical to a prohibited firearm in accordance with the statutory provision and the Attorney General’s guidelines cited above.

However, earlier versions of the M1A which contains at least two of the criteria identified in Paragraph B of the Attorney General’s Guidelines, supra, would still be considered to be substantially identical to a prohibited firearm and continue to be banned under our State law.

As a result, it will be necessary to clearly distinguish the physical characteristics or lack of physical characteristics when making a determination regarding the M1A rifle.

Neither this clarification regarding the classification of the Colt Match Target Rifle and the M1A Rifle, nor the guidelines issued August 19, 1996, regarding the “substantially identical” provision of the assault weapons law applies to firearms that are specifically listed in N.J.S.A.2C:39-1w(2) as prohibited firearms or to firearms which are banned at “types” of named prohibited firearms.

If you have any questions regarding the classification of these two firearms, please contact the:

State Police Firearms Unit at 609-882-2000

or

Deputy Attorney General William J. Zaorski at 609-984-2796.

 

 

In one breath the AG states that the M1A is legal then in the next states that the directive does not apply to weapons banned as types. Guess what? The M14S Type is banned, which is, you guessed it, an M1A.

 

This and the AG's August 19, 1996 definition of Substantially Identical pose another issue. In 1993 people that called the state police to inquire about the legality of their Ruger KB Mini 14s were told they were not banned under the NJ AWB and did not need to be registered as only the Mini 14 5/F and K Mini 14 5/Fs which were the folding stock versions were banned. Fast forward to 1996 and those very KB Mini 14s are now de facto assault weapons in NJ because they have two evil features, a flash suppressor and a bayonet lug.

 

Other issues:

FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms and Springfield Armory SAR-48 type are banned but DSA SA58s are apparently sold legally in the state every day

Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms are banned but the Norinco MAK90 is legal (see State v. Robert D. Merrill February 26, 1996)

Armalite AR-180 type is banned yet the Armalite AR180B was legally available years ago

SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types were banned but the Sig 556 is legal

Springfield Armory BM59 type is banned but I just saw an M1 Garand with a detachable magazine on the wall at Shore Shot last week

 

Any of these weapons can make you an instant criminal if a cop, prosecutor and judge decide to look into history of these weapons.

[halbautomatisch 60]

)

Armalite AR-180 type is banned yet the Armalite AR180B was legally available years ago

These are two different guns that share a similar name. The AR180B does not have any evil features (aside from a pistol grip), but more importantly, the internals of it are closer to an AR15 and it uses AR15 mags. Armalite basicly took the better features from the AR180 and combined them with the better features of the AR15 (but it was nutered because the federal AWB was in effect at the time). You could not say this is a clone of either rifle, rather it's an amalgamation of the two.

[TK421 2]

These are two different guns that share a similar name. The AR180B does not have any evil features (aside from a pistol grip), but more importantly, the internals of it are closer to an AR15 and it uses AR15 mags. Armalite basicly took the better features from the AR180 and combined them with the better features of the AR15 (but it was nutered because the federal AWB was in effect at the time). You could not say this is a clone of either rifle, rather it's an amalgamation of the two.

 

Given the Pantie wadding going on at the state police over the Armscor M22 being banned as an M1 Carbine "type" (two very different guns that share no common parts) what is the difference? None other than their outward appearances being similar. Hell Most M1 Carbines and clones either only have a bayonet lug or don't have a any evil features at all. My point in all this is there is no standard level of stupidity to expect or anticipate with the idiots, they are all over the board in terms of how they interpret the law to screw people. I'm merely pointing out the specific instances.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Given the Pantie wadding going on at the state police over the Armscor M22 being banned as an M1 Carbine "type" (two very different guns that share no common parts) what is the difference? None other than their outward appearances being similar. Hell Most M1 Carbines and clones either only have a bayonet lug or don't have a any evil features at all. My point in all this is there is no standard level of stupidity to expect or anticipate with the idiots, they are all over the board in terms of how they interpret the law to screw people. I'm merely pointing out the specific instances.

I agree, NJ needs a good lawsuit to staighten this out, preferably ending with a federal judge striking this crap down.