straw purchase ? Internet purchase and subsequent sale

[jackandjill 683]

As many can tell, I recently got into Guns and trying to build my collection. In the process, either I am ending up with guns I dont need or cant take (due to OGAM law).

 

I recently ended up ordering two rifles (same model) online because I found second one cheaper and couldn't resist the difference. Instead of taking the transfer of both, I asked my FFL if he could do the transfer to someone else (from this njgunforums for sale section).

 

FFL told me he thinks this falls into straw purchase and refusing to do transfer. He is a good guy and I know if something goes wrong, its his license at stake, so I am not going to argue with him. But trying to learn something about law.

 

So if I

 

1) Ordered a gun online but did not take transfer from FFL yet

2) Ordered a second one (same model) online again because of better price, did not take transfer from FFL yet

3) Trying to sell the first one on here so whoever ends up giving cash will take transfer DIRECTLY from that FFL after proper paperwork

4) I take transfer of second gun from the FFL for my own purpose, with my own paperwork

 

Is this a straw purchase in any fashion ?

 

To be clear, I did do this one time before with a pistol, again because I liked one of the two models purchased better and didnt need second one, with same FFL. At the time, he had many question, which I truthfully and clearly answered.

 

Thoughts ?

[johnp 45]

I don't see how it could be a straw purchase since you never took possession on the rifle.

 

If you bought it, had it transferred to you, had a nics check done, and then sold it to someone else in the parking lot. IMO, that would constitute a straw purchase.

 

 

PK90-in 3...2...1..

[brocglock23 4]

I would say it's not a straw purchase b/c you are not taking possession of them to sell them to someone who can not legally purchase one themselves

[jackandjill 683]

I don't see how it could be a straw purchase since you never took possession on the rifle.

 

If you bought it, had it transferred to you, had a nics check done, and then sold it to someone else in the parking lot. IMO, that would constitute a straw purchase.

 

 

PK90-in 3...2...1..

Thats exactly what I am trying to explain to him. But his argument is, ATF tells him to suspect a straw purchase anytime two guys shows up at a the transfer. The only reason I show up at the transfer is tell FFL that I am ok with the arrangement (because my name is on the shipping box) and take my money from the actual purchaser.

 

Again, I am not trying to get into any gun business. I am busy with jobs as it is and its not worth making additional $20 for weeks of follow up and hassle.

[Soju 153]

If the transfer is being done through a ffl the NICS check and form 4473 would be done for that individual so there is no way it can be a straw purchase . The one who fills out the 4473 is the purchaser for legal purposes. That you paid or ordered it originally or whatever should be irrelevant.

[blackh8552 0]

A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who does not have a fid card or can not legally posses a firearm... you can buy and sell any gun you do not want

[Smokin .50 1,907]

The money to pay for the gun could have fallen out of the sky..........

 

WHO's name is on the transfer forms is all that matters........

 

A Father & Son walk into a store. Dad pays for the gun. Junior has it put into his name, using his own NJFID, matching DL, etc. Happens all of the time, especially near the end of the year (Christmas).

 

Find a different FFL........

[jackandjill 683]

If the transfer is being done through a ffl the NICS check and form 4473 would be done for that individual so there is no way it can be a straw purchase . The one who fills out the 4473 is the purchaser for legal purposes. That you paid or ordered it originally or whatever should be irrelevant.

Exactly, I was honest with him, and wanted the paper work to be filled out by the actual purchaser (not me), so everything is kosher.

 

One of them is scheduled to deliver this week and he told me he is not going to transfer. I did write to him with whole story with hope that he feels comfortable.

 

What course do I take if he refuses transfer ?

[FLHX 1]

What would happen if you lost your job would he not allow the transfer to go to someone else?

[PK90 3,570]

Gray area. Dealer's choice to do the sale or not. If the dealer does not feel comfortable with this, he has the option.

 

BTW, if someone purchases a firearm for someone else, it is still a straw purchase even if the receiving party is not a prohibited person.

[jackandjill 683]

The money to pay for the gun could have fallen out of the sky..........

 

WHO's name is on the transfer forms is all that matters........

 

A Father & Son walk into a store. Dad pays for the gun. Junior has it put into his name, using his own NJFID, matching DL, etc. Happens all of the time, especially near the end of the year (Christmas).

 

Find a different FFL........

 

One of the rifles is already in the shipping coming to this guy. How do people usually deal with FFL who refuses a transfer for a gun already delivered and all legal according to NJ laws ?

 

And it seems I just lost the buyer who withdrew, because of this thread it seems.

[Soju 153]

 

 

What course do I take if he refuses transfer ?

 

Did you already pay? If not, nothing. If so, where did you order from? Most places will give a full refund if the dealer doesn't transfer it.

[jackandjill 683]

Gray area. Dealer's choice to do the sale or not. If the dealer does not feel comfortable with this, he has the option.

 

BTW, if someone purchases a firearm for someone else, it is still a straw purchase even if the receiving party is not a prohibited person.

 

Correct, however, I DID NOT purchase this for SOMEONE ELSE. Neither did I intended to sell this at the time I paid the online seller. I purchased it, found a better deal, so ended up with two. And trying to get rid of one of them BEFORE I take possession of it.

[NJCK 5]

It's a fuzzy area you're treading, and everyone MUST remember it is the FFL who makes the decision! It IS his or her license, not yours, and does not matter what you think the law says. It is the FFL that has to answer any scrunity of his logbooks.

 

With that said, if you have bill of sale between yourself and buddy, and would provide a copy to the FFL it may be enough to change his position.

[Soju 153]

 

 

BTW, if someone purchases a firearm for someone else, it is still a straw purchase even if the receiving party is not a prohibited person.

 

Mostly true. Gifting is not a straw purchase though, UNLESS the person IS a prohibited person. And in this case, the 4473 applicant is the actual purchaser, so it is irrelevant.

[NJCK 5]

One of the rifles is already in the shipping coming to this guy. How do people usually deal with FFL who refuses a transfer for a gun already delivered and all legal according to NJ laws ?

 

And it seems I just lost the buyer who withdrew, because of this thread it seems.

 

You also realize there is not limit on how many long guns you can take at one time right??? Simply pick both up transferred to you, and then do a private sale, FTF, and be sure you do the Certificates of Eligibility filled out and your buyer must have a FPID. I'm guessing this is unclear to you as new to firearms and NJ law.

[PK90 3,570]

... And in this case, the 4473 applicant is the actual purchaser, so it is irrelevant.

 

Maybe. The actual purchaser may be buying it for the OP. It depends on the chain of events to come.

[NJCK 5]

Correct, however, I DID NOT purchase this for SOMEONE ELSE. Neither did I intended to sell this at the time I paid the online seller. I purchased it, found a better deal, so ended up with two. And trying to get rid of one of them BEFORE I take possession of it.

 

Why? Take possession of it. It's a long gun. NBD. It's not like a car and the moment you drive off the lot loses 10 or more percent of value.

[diamondd817 827]

Gray area. Dealer's choice to do the sale or not. If the dealer does not feel comfortable with this, he has the option.

 

BTW, if someone purchases a firearm for someone else, it is still a straw purchase even if the receiving party is not a prohibited person.

 

Can you clarify that statement. Do you mean if someone buys a gun, takes possesion thru 4473, etc and then gives it to non prohibitive person? Or do you mean that if I pay for the gun and the other person takes possession thru 4473, etc?

[jackandjill 683]

You also realize there is not limit on how many long guns you can take at one time right??? Simply pick both up transferred to you, and then do a private sale, FTF, and be sure you do the Certificates of Eligibility filled out and your buyer must have a FPID. I'm guessing this is unclear to you as new to firearms and NJ law.

I guess my problem is reading too much into it and trying to stick to it (law) too much. Reading the law, I inferred that I could not take transfer with INTENT to sell that immediately afterwords. So trying to do the right, simple thing getting me in some hassle.

[PK90 3,570]

You also realize there is not limit on how many long guns you can take at one time right??? Simply pick both up transferred to you, and then do a private sale, FTF, and be sure you do the Certificates of Eligibility filled out and your buyer must have a FPID. I'm guessing this is unclear to you as new to firearms and NJ law.

THIS would be a straw purchase, as the OP would be buying it for someone else, OR he would be buying and selling without a retail license.

[Soju 153]

Easy solution. If you bought it from a reputable place, refuse the transfer, have the dealer send it back, and get refunded. Many places will do so and cover the dealer shipping costs if you tell them it wasn't what you thought/wanted, or whatnot.

[jackandjill 683]

Maybe. The actual purchaser may be buying it for the OP. It depends on the chain of events to come.

Funny, the FFL KNOWS that I advertised the item on these forums for sale. He knows when I advertised it (which is I bought second one). He pointed it out to me. So he knows I didn't make any prior arrangement or trying to do this thing a buddy with intent of transfer back to me.

[PK90 3,570]

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

 

Page 3. Question 11a.

[jackandjill 683]

THIS would be a straw purchase, as the OP would be buying it for someone else, OR he would be buying and selling without a retail license.

Thats exactly what I am trying to avoid. But trying to stick a law is getting me into more hassle than taking easy route.

[PK90 3,570]

True

 

Both of you should go together and purchaser at the same time. I would be comfortable with that.

[NJCK 5]

THIS would be a straw purchase, as the OP would be buying it for someone else, OR he would be buying and selling without a retail license.

 

Paul, is this how NJ sees this because elsewhere a straw purchase has much more specific definition where it concerns sale to someone otherwise unable to purchase themself. If the OP is selling to another NJ FPID holder, and the COE is done, and there's a bill of sale NJ considers that a straw purchase too???

[jackandjill 683]

http://www.atf.gov/f...tf-f-4473-1.pdf

 

Page 3. Question 11a.

That question talks about a PRIOR arrangement. But Mr. Smith (a future purchaser) DID NOT give money to Mr. Jones (me) at the time of internet sale. Infact Mr. Jones(me) did NOT know any potential Mr. Smith at the time when he (I) paid for internet sale.

 

Further, all paperwork is filled out by Mr. Smith (not me).

[Soju 153]

 

 

Paul, is this how NJ sees this because elsewhere a straw purchase has much more specific definition where it concerns sale to someone otherwise unable to purchase themself. If the OP is selling to another NJ FPID holder, and the COE is done, and there's a bill of sale NJ considers that a straw purchase too???

 

He is referring to federal law not NJ law in regards to straw purchases I believe.

[blksheep 466]

What kind of rifle?