straw purchase ? Internet purchase and subsequent sale

[Underdog 1,593]

THIS would be a straw purchase, as the OP would be buying it for someone else, OR he would be buying and selling without a retail license.

 

Why? Maybe he decided he liked the trigger on one of them better than the other and he decided not to keep them both. Or maybe due to the high cost of the transfer, etc. he couldn't keep both. The thing is that you would be hit with the sales tax on both.

 

In my mind, it would be a straw purchase if he bought it with the intent of selling to someone else specific before doing so. He doesn't even have the seller in mind, yet. How long does he have to keep it before he can sell it as a private individual? 6 months? 3 years? 7 years?

 

By the way, what kind of item are we talking? Is it one of those dangerous black guns? Or, is it a sensible Remington7600 or something like that?

 

If the dealer is getting sales tax, etc. then it shouldn't matter. I don't think you would have anything to worry about as long as you don't take any markup for the gun. If you are a member of NJ2AS, contact them to get some legal advise.

 

It's time to look for a new FFL.

 

Question... are you using a different FFL for the other gun that you purchased? If so, he might be a little bent out of shape.

[jackandjill 683]

What kind of rifle?

Ruger American Rifle .308 .

[NJCK 5]

He is referring to federal law not NJ law in regards to straw purchases I believe.

 

I think we're all on the same page the more I read the post, the confusing part is where the purchase money is involved.

[kman 56]

Take transfer on both guns and then you can sell the other one later to whoever you want who can receive it legally if you decide you dont like it. Go to the range with your friend, maybe after trying it you dont like it much and he likes it and wants to buy it. Nothing wrong with him buying it right there if you paper it with the proper form and verify firearm purchaser id cards.

 

Or have your reluctant dealer ship the gun you dont want to another nj dealer or a PA dealer to be transferred to your friend, and that dealer can then transfer that one to your friend without worry. That solves this ridiculous bureaucratic difficulty and would only cost shipping.

 

Dont charge your friend more-an element of dealing without a license is profit. Charge exactly what you paid on it.

 

Perhaps this dealer's concern originates with a very difficult BATFE agent breathing down his neck. He probably has his reasons for making you go through this.

 

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[Candide 0]

Gray area. Dealer's choice to do the sale or not. If the dealer does not feel comfortable with this, he has the option.

 

BTW, if someone purchases a firearm for someone else, it is still a straw purchase even if the receiving party is not a prohibited person.

 

So a gift is a straw purchase?

[Soju 153]

 

 

I think we're all on the same page the more I read the post, the confusing part is where the purchase money is involved.

 

That should be irrelevant though. What is important is who fills out the 4473 and who the actual owner of that rifle is going to be. If they are the same person, that is a legal and who pays means nothing.

 

[jackandjill 683]

Some one here referred to 'profit' here.

 

Last time (the only time) I had two pistols, I did same thing with same FFL. He had tons of questions around "original purchaser". The FFL did ask me what I am letting it go for. I told him honestly. Then he rolled his eyes and later made comment that I made profit more than his FFL fees. I DID NOT sell for double the price or anywhere near crazy mark up. My justification was that I have been calling, spending time with internet seller for weeks for the item and finally I ended up with something I didnt want anymore.

 

So I made a small profit , definitely not worth the hassle. Is that it, is that the reason a FFL would refuse transfer ?

[Soju 153]

So you are profiting from this at the dealers expense? Well now I can see why a dealer might want to refuse the transfer.

[jackandjill 683]

So you are profiting from this at the dealers expense? Well now I can see why a dealer might want to refuse the transfer.

Why would it be at the 'dealer' expense ? If anything, I wanted to order the same item from him first and let him make whatever he makes. He didnt have them in stock nor could he order it from anywhere. And its not like I ordered a container of them and start selling like a business using FFL.

 

For god's sake, two items, $40 profit - weeks of phone calls, travel back and forth to FFL to be there for the transfer. Its not a profit in my book. Its a hassle and spoiling the fun of gun ownership right in the beginning.

[johnp 45]

If I was an FFL I would be pissed too.

 

You are using his ability to transfer firearms as a means to make yourself a profit.

[jackandjill 683]

If I was an FFL I would be pissed too.

 

You are using his ability to transfer firearms as a means to make yourself a profit.

I would understand if somehow I made a scheme to sell like a business. I understand the sentiment in general with price gauging.

 

But for two items and a $40 made for the hassle ? I like to purchase a Glock 19, anyone would like to sell for the cost please ?

[johnp 45]

For two items and a $40 made for the hassle ? I like to purchase a Glock 19, anyone would like to sell for the cost please ?

 

No idea what you are trying to say here.....

[jackandjill 683]

No idea what you are trying to say here.....

I am trying to say that, I dont understand why the FFL would be pissed or it would suddenly make it like I was taking advantage of the dealer/FFL. Specially, when my first preference was to buy from the FFL, only went online route when he couldn't get it from anywhere and made small money for the hassle of traveling back and forth to FFL to help with the transfer.

 

Why would a FFL make this about a straw purchase ? Is everyone selling their unwanted guns for cost and not making any profit or to cover any costs ?

[jackandjill 683]

For anyone thinking that I somehow took advantage of FFL or the buyer, I ended up selling the previous one at lowest price out there. Cheaper than the FFL himself (which he never had in stock to begin with or nor could order one), cheaper than anywhere online.

 

Had I wanted, I could have quietly bought it for me, then put on gunbroker or some place else for nice profit - which would have been illegal in my book (the transfer with intent of sell).

 

 

So, no, I did not take advantage of FFL or the buyer in that case. And that should not be the case to somehow make this one about straw purchase.

[Soju 153]

I was not saying you were taking advantage of the dealer. I was saying how I can see why the dealer might refuse a transfer. There is a difference between agreeing and understanding.

 

You ordered a rifle, then found another one for cheaper and ordered that. Any extra phone calls or trips to the dealer were induced by yourself an no one else. The extra legwork was your fault. You then used your lack of research before purchasing, and lack of planning to make a profit. I understand why, but you should also understand why this might annoy a dealer who is doing the transfer for you. Dealers do not have to offer transfers service.

[jackandjill 683]

I was not saying you were taking advantage of the dealer. I was saying how I can see why the dealer might refuse a transfer. There is a difference between agreeing and understanding.

 

You ordered a rifle, then found another one for cheaper and ordered that. Any extra phone calls or trips to the dealer were induced by yourself an no one else. The extra legwork was your fault. You then used your lack of research before purchasing, and lack of planning to make a profit. I understand why, but you should also understand why this might annoy a dealer who is doing the transfer for you. Dealers do not have to offer transfers service.

 

I do understand Dealers do not have to offer transfer service, just like any private business that can refuse service any customer they choose. However, trying to show it somehow in illegal light is just not right, for what ? Because I am making a "whopping" profit of $16 for lack of my research skills ?

 

So tomorrow some law passes and all FTF sales need to go through FFLs, then what ? FFLs are going to start asking how much the seller is selling it for, and when truthfully answered, they are going to refuse transfers because they think seller is making a profit ?

[jackandjill 683]

Thanks everyone for your opinion. If at all possible, I am going to take transfer of the rifle from this FFL.

After explaining all of this to him, if he still refuses, well no big deal, in grand scheme of things.

 

There was a time I thought bringing FFLs into FTF would be good idea, but with this treatment , it reinforces

the fact that when you make an exclusive club, it will end up with someone claiming moral

high ground for unjustified reasons.

 

Whatever decision this FFL makes, I respect it, move on and take my business elsewhere in future.

[jackandjill 683]

Update on the situation. Even after putting everything in writing and explaining, the FFL would not agree for the transfer.

He is shipping the firearm back and took up on himself to call the second place where I found the rifle cheaper to tell them not to ship either.

 

Lessons learned:

 

1. Don't try a complex transaction with FFL that you don't know. You will be scre*wed.

2. Run from any FFL who acts like they are doing you a favor. Simple fact is, they are going to judge you.

Pay few bucks extra somewhere else and preserve your peace of mind.

 

God forbid if there is ever a law about FTF transactions going through FFL.

[Vlad G 345]

Who is the FFL?

[nuclearheli 40]

Straw purchase has nothing to do with who pays for the gun. I just ordered a shot gun for a client that purchased it for his brother as a birthday gift. The bottom line is the brother will be present completing the paperwork and getting the NICS check. And that is the only person that will get the gun. Who cares who paid for it. Since you lost your buyer sell the gun on consignment if you can't or won't return it. If your FFL won't sell the gun for you under consignment transfer it to me. I will list it on gunbroker for you, legally transfer it and happily take my small cut.

[kman 56]

Wow canceling both on you is pretty poor service. What dealer is this?

 

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[JackDaWack 2,895]

AFAIK, if you do not Lie on form 4473, and sell to a legal person, it can be a straw purchase and still be legal... no laws about straw purchases just lieing on the form and illegal transfers..

 

Who is the FFL? because this a serious issue.

 

ANY of the FFL's i go to would have been happy to do the transfer, simply have them buy the gun from you with the person present who is going to actually buy it, and have them sell it... not a hard issue to fix.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I bid and won a gun for a friend on Gunbroker since he did not have an account and did not want to set one up. I paid for it, had it sent to an FFL, went there with him so he could hand me the cash I paid for the gun, he did the transfer with the FFL using HIS FID and PPP permit, I just went for the ride (and to get my money). So, if that constitutes a straw purchase then their definition of such needs to be changed.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I would understand if somehow I made a scheme to sell like a business. I understand the sentiment in general with price gauging.

 

But for two items and a $40 made for the hassle ? I like to purchase a Glock 19, anyone would like to sell for the cost please ?

 

a firearms dealer spends time and money becoming established and licensed... selling guns for profit... engaging in the business of selling guns as an unlicensed dealer.. is against the law..

 

buying a gun deciding a little while later it is not for you... and selling it...

totally legal..

 

buying one gun... then finding another cheaper... recognizing the value.. coming up with a plan to resell it..

probably a little less legal..

 

buy and sell multiple guns at a profit..

more than likely not legal...

 

 

this is likely why the FFL was annoyed... his business is his livelihood.. he is not going to put that on the line playing games with someone buying guns then not even taking possession and reselling them.. what if you are doing that ten times over at other FFLs... my opinion is being tied up in something questionable is not even worth the risk to him..

[jackandjill 683]

........ engaging in the business of selling guns as an unlicensed dealer.. is against the law..

 

 

........buy and sell multiple guns at a profit..

more than likely not legal...

 

 

this is likely why the FFL was annoyed... his business is his livelihood.. he is not going to put that on the line playing games with someone buying guns then not even taking possession and reselling them.. what if you are doing that ten times over at other FFLs... my opinion is being tied up in something questionable is not even worth the risk to him..

 

I get it about his business risk. That's why I showed up in person when for (technically, I didnt even transfer to myself) the ONLY pistol I ever sold. I sold to the guy who did prior business with this FFL. I sold that pistol for the same price as the FFL, had it been in in stock with him. And its one of the cheapest prices online.

 

When asked how much I am selling it, I honestly told him the price, thinking he is satisfied that this is not the straw purchase and he is comfortable with the deal.

 

So the buyer got best price ANYWHERE in stock, FFL got his fee and I got my money back. So how exactly did I step on his tows ?

 

- buying and selling guns ? How many ? I sold exactly ONE. Does that make me "dealing" and "illegal" ?

 

The problem started the moment he saw price on the box and the sale price I told him.

He doesnt know how many I sold with other FFLs (which is NONE). But by the same token, he also doesnt know many things about people coming to his place for transfers. How he knows people are not just buying and then selling ? He doesnt.

 

So Instead of being open with a guy who is open with you, you go vigilante justice route and call to cancel other order and stick it to the guy ? Give a break.

[jackandjill 683]

AFAIK, if you do not Lie on form 4473, and sell to a legal person, it can be a straw purchase and still be legal... no laws about straw purchases just lieing on the form and illegal transfers..

 

Who is the FFL? because this a serious issue.

 

ANY of the FFL's i go to would have been happy to do the transfer, simply have them buy the gun from you with the person present who is going to actually buy it, and have them sell it... not a hard issue to fix.

 

This was my understanding too. I didnt even take that transfer, so I didnt lie. I went there along with the buyer, answered all questions in truth, when asked, even told him truthfully what I am selling it for.

 

Funny thing is, I sold the thing for same price as FFL had on his website (one of those davidson), but he was out of stock. The price is one of the cheapest online

for this pistol. So buyer got best price, FFL got his fees but somehow I became this 'bad guy' who got a profit.

 

After this whole thing broke out, I sent him in clear writing how this unfolded, and that I am now not interested selling the rifle after this chaos.

Nope, he doesnt want to transfer. He not only calls the first company to send it back, he calls the second company (cheaper price) and tells them to cancel too.

Vigilante justice, go figure.

[jackandjill 683]

Straw purchase has nothing to do with who pays for the gun. I just ordered a shot gun for a client that purchased it for his brother as a birthday gift. The bottom line is the brother will be present completing the paperwork and getting the NICS check. And that is the only person that will get the gun. Who cares who paid for it. Since you lost your buyer sell the gun on consignment if you can't or won't return it. If your FFL won't sell the gun for you under consignment transfer it to me. I will list it on gunbroker for you, legally transfer it and happily take my small cut.

 

After this mess, I just wanted to take the transfer and go shoot at the range. Nope, the FFL doesnt want to transfer. He is not only sending it back, but called the company to tell him that somehow I may be involved in straw purchase. Guess what ? The company wants me to pay for the return shipping $25 and restocking fee. And he calls second company where I was going to get it little cheaper and tells them to cancel order.

So it seems that this FFL really want to stick it to me. Vigilante Justice, more like vigilante injustice.

[jackandjill 683]

Wow canceling both on you is pretty poor service. What dealer is this?

 

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Wortendyke Arms in Midland Park. I went there after reading reference from this site.

He was extremely busy during the week with his work, so not easy to reach.

My first transaction went ok with one week wait time between first paperwork, NJ NICS and then

he finding time out of his schedule.

 

For simple transaction, he is ok. But the nature of sticking it to customer even after hearing the full story, not my taste.

 

I will find some other FFL who I may pay extra, but isnt going to judge me outside the legal framework.

[kman 56]

I know dealers hate it when you buy from the internet anyhow - they want to make a sale to you so they can mark up the gun, not just be a NICS checkpoint. Meltzer's takes care of this by charging you more for a transfer if it is something new they could have ordered for you. But turning around and canceling your order with someone else, shipping it back to them when you are ready and able to receive it, and saying to the person you bought it from that they suspected you of being a straw purchaser - in effect slandering you as a criminal - that is inexcusable!

[JackDaWack 2,895]

You can buy and sell guns FOR Profit to further your firearm collection... you cannot support your lifestyle unless your licensed...

 

In other words... make sure you have a day job before you go around selling guns for profit...

 

IIRC your in the northern area, i would really like to know which FFL this is so i don't ever go to them... i have seen plenty of FS threads on here about people who have firearms awaiting pickup at an FFL they want to sell.