straw purchase ? Internet purchase and subsequent sale

[jackandjill 683]

You can buy and sell guns FOR Profit to further your firearm collection... you cannot support your lifestyle unless your licensed...

 

In other words... make sure you have a day job before you go around selling guns for profit...

 

IIRC your in the northern area, i would really like to know which FFL this is so i don't ever go to them... i have seen plenty of FS threads on here about people who have firearms awaiting pickup at an FFL they want to sell.

I agree. I have two day jobs and travel, so neither I have time, need or inclination to support myself with gun profits. I exactly sold ONE, which he knows. This is is Wortendyke Arms in Midland Park.

 

I know dealers hate it when you buy from the internet anyhow - they want to make a sale to you so they can mark up the gun, not just be a NICS checkpoint. Meltzer's takes care of this by charging you more for a transfer if it is something new they could have ordered for you. But turning around and canceling your order with someone else, shipping it back to them when you are ready and able to receive it, and saying to the person you bought it from that they suspected you of being a straw purchaser - in effect slandering you as a criminal - that is inexcusable!

I asked him before I bought if he could order for me. Nope, not only he doesn't have in stock, but he could not order.

Things went south as soon as I told him what I am selling for. He even made a comment how I made more than his transfer fee.

So none of this is about legal aspect, its more about the money. I don't get how taking that frustration and turning into vigilante justice is a ethical business practice - which he want to teach me.

 

On that sale, had he told me that he is not comfortable, I would have gladly kept that pistol, which is worth times more anywhere else.

[nuclearheli 40]

Before I had my FFL I purchased a very special SIG that I wanted for a long time. A 226 X6 Scantic. I had it transferred to a reputable large dealer in N. Jersey. When I went to pick up the gun one of the principals in the business opened up the box and the very first thing out of his mouth after "wow" was "do you want to sell it". I said no and he still threw out a price which would have made me a tidy profit. I didn't sell the gun BUT had I would that have been illegal?

[Anselmo 87]

My understanding was that you can't buy and sell at a profit unless you're an FFL. In other words, you can't buy and sell FTF for a profit as that would make you an unlicensed gun store. I don't know that it's illegal buying low and then selling high if the sale goes through an FFL. If the person that takes the gun home goes through the background check process then it's not a straw purchase.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

My understanding was that you can't buy and sell at a profit unless you're an FFL. In other words, you can't buy and sell FTF for a profit as that would make you an unlicensed gun store. I don't know that it's illegal buying low and then selling high if the sale goes through an FFL. If the person that takes the gun home goes through the background check process then it's not a straw purchase.

 

I'd like to know where every one is coming up with this stuff? I really don't feel like searching for the ATF statute for the 10th time that states you can sell a gun to further your collection, and they make no distinguishing outline as to what you can charge... they explicitly define in the statute what a business is, and the statute says you need a license to participate in the business of dealing and manufacturing.

 

How many people would be going to jail right now for selling there guns at 3x profit?

[Anselmo 87]

I'd like to know where every one is coming up with this stuff? I really don't feel like searching for the ATF statute for the 10th time that states you can sell a gun to further your collection, and they make no distinguishing outline as to what you can charge... they explicitly state in the statute that if it is not your primary means of income it is not a business and does not require a dealers license.

 

I concur. But you can't have a side business buying and selling FTF without a license. As to the fine line between primary means of income and side business and hobbyist, that I don't know.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

It's very tricky, because the information and definitions are not exactly located in the same parts of the statute. In the C&R part they define what a business is... and then under the licensing part they say that you need a license to partake in the business of selling...

[jackandjill 683]

I concur. But you can't have a side business buying and selling FTF without a license. As to the fine line between primary means of income and side business and hobbyist, that I don't know.

 

 

I would agree that it would have been grey/red area, had I ordered a batch of these and put up for sale and line up 10 guys at FFL place. It was one damn pistol, sold for the best price out there. And for that, he sticks the return and restocking fees to me by telling the online vendor that this was straw purchase somehow. And goes further and calls to cancel the other place too.

[JSF01 13]

 

 

 

I would agree that it would have been grey/red area, had I ordered a batch of these and put up for sale and line up 10 guys at FFL place. It was one damn pistol, sold for the best price out there. And for that, he sticks the return and restocking fees to me by telling the online vendor that this was straw purchase somehow. And goes further and calls to cancel the other place too.

call up the company and explain the situation maybe they will understand the situation and instead charge the FFL the restocking fee instead

[jackandjill 683]

call up the company and explain the situation maybe they will understand the situation and instead charge the FFL the restocking fee instead

Thanks for the advice. No luck. I will try again on Monday. If I were the vendor, who would I go with ? The FFL who is supposed to do the right thing or a guy who bought one rifle ? And given the market, the vendor can get restocking fees AND sell it like hot cake in minutes.

[jackandjill 683]

This is getting more bizarre. I tried to login to my account at the online vendor to ask them about refund and guess what ?

 

" Your account has been permanently de-activated by the webmaster."

 

I wish I am making this sh*t up, I can only imagine what Mr. Jeff at Wortendyke Arms told these guys.

 

Should I expect a visit from some agency now ?

 

Everyone talks about who is going to stand with who in SHTF situation. Who needs enemies when an FFL can make your life miserable on purpose ?

[Blacksmythe 71]

Lesson learned, have a NICS done, pay for rifle, do what ever the hell I legally want with it after I take receivership. Thank you for your experience.

[Wile E Coyote 0]

Lesson learned, have a NICS done, pay for rifle, do what ever the hell I legally want with it after I take receivership. Thank you for your experience.

 

I don't know why this wasn't done from the beginning...

[jackandjill 683]

I don't know why this wasn't done from the beginning...

Because, I was an ASS about following the law, thinking that taking transfer of the pistol I dont need would be straw purchase, because next logical step would be selling it.

Lesson learned indeed.

[djg0770 481]

Because, I was an ASS about following the law, thinking that taking transfer of the pistol RIFLE I dont need would be straw purchase, because next logical step would be selling it.

Lesson learned indeed.

 

Dude, can I give you some advice? STFU! You are making your situation worse by saying stuff. Shut your mouth, walk away, let it go, and ask the mods to delete this post and anything related to it, period. You f'ed up, (hopefully) learned your lesson, so now it's time to go on your merry way. Seriously. Learn from the wisdom of others Grasshopper.

[ChrisJM981 924]

 

Because, I was an ASS about following the law, thinking that taking transfer of the pistol I dont need would be straw purchase, because next logical step would be selling it.

Lesson learned indeed.

 

Stop being a cheap ass and ordering a second after you order the first one. You sold a pistol once. True. Then you tried to do it with a rifle. You clearly pissed in his Cheerios in the mind of the FFL. He probably thinks you're using his FFL license to acquire a firearm you don't want, then sell it for a profit. You are the reason dealers have jacked their prices online. Lesson learned for me. You draw too much attention to yourself with how you conduct purchases and I for one will not engage in any transactions with you.

[dtown223 12]

"The better part of valor is

discretion"

My man Bill S said it best and it applies here..

I've dealt with this FFL and found his customer service to be totally outstanding.

I don't know you personally, but what I do know is there are always two sides to every story.

I also KNOW that these threads can't be helping your situation, clean up these posts/threads and move on.

If there's an FFL who'd be agreeable to discussing this scenario via PM that's probably your best bet

Good luck

[JoeTK37 8]

I've worked in a high end retail market for a long time. Its not uncommon to see customers make a purchase at MAP(minimum advertised pricing, as SET by the vendors) from ourselves or another authorized retailer, only to think they've found a better deal on the internet and then create an issue with a return because, frankly they were being cheap, had failed to do their research or whatever reason you chose to name. And comically in my industry most of those items from the internet are usually bogus knock offs

 

But this is not my industry, this is the firearms industry. Governed by tight laws and in a climate of chaos. Each holder of an FFL reserves and excersizes the right to deny a transfer if they feel there may be some deception or dishonesty involved(not saying OP is a dishonest person, but if there were as many details left out of that conversation as these posts it could be quite confusing). It is their right and responsibility to protect themselves and the laws/policies set forth to govern them.

 

For an FFL to contact an internet seller if they have reason to believe purchases are not being made with integrity may be part of the protocol, a self governance of such. And if there were wrong doing(not saying this is or is not the case in this instance) aren't we all better off if FFL's work together to rectify the issue? In this time of fearing bans and policy changes a group of FFL's who are self policing go a long way to HELPING our causes.

 

Perhaps that even means contacting the state and informing them of anything worth of investigation.

 

For the FFL to contact the FFL who sent he/she the weapon isn't really an different than this thread is it?

[Avi 12]

There is nothing wrong with buying a gun for another person, period! it is only against the law if the person is prohibited from owning a gun and i help get it, much like buying booze for someone under 21

[jackandjill 683]

The moment the FFL said "you made more than my fees", thats an indication for me that the motivation is something other than ethics or legal.

 

I have been going through ATF site reading various things. Interesting thing is, right on the ATF Firearms page (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/), is an OPEN LETTER encouraging FFLs to facilitate transfer of firearms between private individuals.

 

In fact, the letter goes onto say "ATF encourages FFLs to facilitate firearm sales between private individuals through FFL business. This service provides both customers and the community assurance that individuals who want to purchase firearms undergo a comprehensive background check".

 

Self Governance and Ethical Practice ?

When did calling another FFL and unfairly tagging an otherwise legal transaction as illegal become self governance and ethical ? If anything, its unethical to gang up and prevent an occasional person to perform the thing you as business are engaged daily. This is exactly why local buying/selling died in part and internet auction sites have become prevalent for non firearms.

 

 

----------------------------

To those who answered the legal question - Thank you.

 

Those who called names and went by "guilty until proven innocent", - God bless you and I hope you feel better. And know this - I have sold many non firearm

items on ebay or craigslist below what I bought them and gave away stuff on freecycle. You want to claim moral high ground, talk to me when you never sold anything for profit.

 

Those who suggested I lay low - I have renewed admiration for those who come to these forums about their problems

with their local PD or FID process. I can only imagine, how much they have to overcome fear of retribution if they have to publicly complain.

 

To close this thread, barring typos, I have written up the situation to the best of my knowledge and after researching I do believe there was no legal ground for this FFL to deny this transaction. I will take the financial loss and move on.

[Malsua 1,422]

There is nothing wrong with buying a gun for another person, period! it is only against the law if the person is prohibited from owning a gun and i help get it, much like buying booze for someone under 21

 

Please do your research before you make declarative statements like this. The ATF has specifically stated that a straw purchase can still occur when both parties are legally able to obtain the firearm. The straw purchase occurs when the paperwork for the firearm does not represent who will actually own the firearm. The intent matters. If you buy it today, decide you don't like it and sell it tomorrow, that's legal. If you buy it with the intent of selling it to your buddy, that's NOT legal and they will jam you up for it.

[jackandjill 683]

Please do your research before you make declarative statements like this. The ATF has specifically stated that a straw purchase can still occur when both parties are legally able to obtain the firearm. The straw purchase occurs when the paperwork for the firearm does not represent who will actually own the firearm. The intent matters. If you buy it today, decide you don't like it and sell it tomorrow, that's legal. If you buy it with the intent of selling it to your buddy, that's NOT legal and they will jam you up for it.

"buy" here means taking transfer by filling out the paper work for background check.

 

Person A and Person B (private parties) going to FFL for the transfer where Person B is filling out paperwork and getting the transfer from Person A for his (Person B) ownership is actually encouraged by ATF (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/) - Open letter to FFLs encouraging sale of firearms between private parties at FFL.

[jackandjill 683]

 

I've dealt with this FFL and found his customer service to be totally outstanding.

I don't know you personally, but what I do know is there are always two sides to every story.

I also KNOW that these threads can't be helping your situation, clean up these posts/threads and move on.

If there's an FFL who'd be agreeable to discussing this scenario via PM that's probably your best bet

Good luck

 

Thanks. I agree. My first transaction with that FFL was time consuming but pleasant. I thanked him many times for his help and told him that he got nothing but great reviews on these forums.

 

If he is taking his general frustration of market on me for some reason, all I can say to him is that he is taking it on wrong dude.

 

 

Mods, I got my answers. Please feel free to delete thread.

[Malsua 1,422]

"buy" here means taking transfer by filling out the paper work for background check.

 

Person A and Person B (private parties) going to FFL for the transfer where Person B is filling out paperwork and getting the transfer from Person A for his (Person B) ownership is actually encouraged by ATF (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/) - Open letter to FFLs encouraging sale of firearms between private parties at FFL.

 

I agree, absolutely nothing wrong with that. Who actually spends the money is immaterial, what matters is that whoever is taking the gun with the intent to keep it is the same person who is on the 4473 form.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Lesson learned, have a NICS done, pay for rifle, do what ever the hell I legally want with it after I take receivership. Thank you for your experience.

 

 

bingo, your welcome