S2723 Revises Firearm Purchaser ID and handgun purchase permits (Sweeney, Norcross, Weinberg)

[Tunaman 549]

Your SBI number is listed on your P2P.

I understand that,  but I thought that number is your FPID number.  I dont recall the card not being required before the P2P.  I have 6 handguns and I needed the card every time.  I just bought one today and the dealer even asked for my card.

[MattH 0]

I understand that,  but I thought that number is your FPID number.  I dont recall the card not being required before the P2P.  I have 6 handguns and I needed the card every time.  I just bought one today and the dealer even asked for my card.

The SBI number is issued when you apply for the original permit or FPID. All dealers usually ask for the FPID in addition to the P2P, but the law does not require it.

[222 3]

Senate Committee Substitute S2723, adopted May 9, is published on NJ State Legislature Website.

 

I'm gonna go mount a scope, the come back and read it afterwards.

[matty 810]

Hm,

 

Training TBD by NJSP

 

All handgun F2F xfers thru FFL, fee capped at $15

 

NJAG decides if separate ID card or addded to DL for FPID

 

Says NJSP has to develop instant ammo sales reporting program for dealers. NJ Dealers? How could out of state dealers be subjected to such a thing?

 

The whole new FPID and ammo sales tracking looks like a cluster-f-k waiting to happen.

 

Christie better veto this whole abortion.

 

Call the NJ Senate majority office and al your Senators, and even more so keep POUNDING Christie, he's the last line of defense. have friends & relatives in other states cal or email him telling him he is sunk outside of NJ if he allows the lwas to be enacted

[222 3]

Buying Handgun ammo

No person shall sell ... or receive... handgun ammunition unless the purchaser... is the holder... a valid firearms purchaser identification card [,] and a valid copy of a permit to purchase a handgun [,] ora valid permit to carry a handgun, or a valid New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier card embedded with information affirming that the person is qualified and eligible to purchase and receive a handgun... and first exhibits such card...  to the seller...

 

How would you parse this language?

Option A

(a valid firearms purchaser identification card [,] and a valid copy of a permit to purchase a handgun)[,]

ora valid permit to carry a handgun,

or a valid New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier card embedded with information affirming that the person is qualified and eligible to purchase and receive a handgun...

 

 

 

Option B

a valid firearms purchaser identification card [,] and

(a valid copy of a permit to purchase a handgun)[,]

or a valid permit to carry a handgun,

or a valid New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier card embedded with information affirming that the person is qualified and eligible to purchase and receive a handgun...

)

 

 

By mathematical rules, Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally (Parens, Exponents, Multi/Div, Add/Sub)

By programming rules, generally Logical And (&&) applies before Logical Or (||), so Option A.

 

 

But I think maybe they mean Option B.. Because otherwise everyone who wants to buy a handgun ammo must have a P2P, which is only good for 90 days at a time.  And that New New Jersey Embedded ID card won't be available for another 6 years.

[voyager9 3,434]

 

 

But I think maybe they mean Option B.. Because otherwise everyone who wants to buy a handgun ammo must have a P2P, which is only good for 90 days at a time. And that New New Jersey Embedded ID card won't be available for another 6 years.

 

I think one of the "good" things this bill would do is change the p2p making more like a FPID.. You get one and you're authorized to buy handguns..you don't have to reapply for each purchase but it does expire (like the new FPID) every 4 years. At least that's how I read it.

 

[voyager9 3,434]

Hm,

 

Training TBD by NJSP

 

All handgun F2F xfers thru FFL, fee capped at $15

 

NJAG decides if separate ID card or addded to DL for FPID

 

Says NJSP has to develop instant ammo sales reporting program for dealers. NJ Dealers? How could out of state dealers be subjected to such a thing?

 

The whole new FPID and ammo sales tracking looks like a cluster-f-k waiting to happen.

 

Christie better veto this whole abortion.

 

Call the NJ Senate majority office and al your Senators, and even more so keep POUNDING Christie, he's the last line of defense. have friends & relatives in other states cal or email him telling him he is sunk outside of NJ if he allows the lwas to be enacted

Meh to bad: Training TBD but it specifically mentions NRA firearm safety course of no more than 4 hours.

 

Bad: All transfer, handgun or long gun through FFL

Bad: new FPID cluster-f. That repeats every 4 years.

Good: p2p good for 4 years and not per-purchase.

Meh: ammo..don't see that it blocks limits or anything online sales.

 

I'm mixed on the training req.. I can see how it would be useful but also unconstitutional.

The new fPID and no more f2f sales are bad.

Worse is it requires every FFL to buy hardware to read this embedded ID and securely contact NJSP..that won't be cheap.

 

 

[222 3]

Firearm Safety Training: highlights

 an applicant shall not be issued his initial permit to purchase a handgun or his first firearms purchaser identification card unless the applicant presents evidence of successfully completing a firearms safety class

 An applicant who has successfully completed a firearms safety class... shall not be required to repeat that class or course as part of any application for any renewal of a firearms purchaser identifier, firearms purchaser identification card, or permit to purchase a handgun.

 

Looks like current FID holders are exempt, and it's not a certificate you need to show every single time you renew.

 

Rifle and Shotgun ammunition: ID required

 No person shall sell... receive..  rifle ammunition or shotgun ammunition unless the purchaser... possesses a valid firearms purchaser identification card, a valid copy of a permit to purchase a handgun, a valid permit to carry a handgun, a valid New Jersey hunting license, or a valid New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier card embedded...

 

 

Real-Time Ammo Sales System

On or before... tenth month following enactment, the superintendent shall develop a program for the electronic reporting by dealers, on a real-time basis, of all rifle and shotgun ammunition sales....  The reported information shall include the name, age, address, type of firearms identifier exhibited...  the caliber and numerical amount of ammunition sold... , the date of the transaction, and such other information as the superintendent shall deem necessary...  The superintendent shall establish an electronic data base containing all such reported information, which shall be available to all law enforcement officers on a real-time basis.

 

Similiar section for handgun ammo.

 

Great.. buy a 50-pack of 22lr, and the guy behind the counter has to start typing... What insanity.

 

All Firearm Transfers (Handgun, Rifles, Shotguns) Done Through FFL

Exceptions for immediate family, LEOs, collectors, temporary transfers.

 

Immediate Family Definition

 “immediate family” means a spouse, domestic partner a..., partner in a civil union couple,..,, parent, stepparent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, sibling, stepsibling, child, stepchild, and grandchild, as related by blood or by law.

[222 3]

I think one of the "good" things this bill would do is change the p2p making more like a FPID.. You get one and you're authorized to buy handguns..you don't have to reapply for each purchase but it does expire (like the new FPID) every 4 years. At least that's how I read it.

 

That part is a little confusing.

 

f.  Granting of permit or identification card; fee; term; renewal; revocation.

The application for the permit to purchase a handgun, or for a New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier embedded with such information, together with a fee of $2, or the application for the firearms purchaser identification card, or a firearms purchaser identifier embedded with such information, together with a fee of $5...

shall be delivered or forwarded to the licensing authority who shall investigate the same and, unless good cause for the denial thereof appears, shall grant the permit or the identification card, or both, if application has been made therefor, within 30 days from the date of receipt of the application for residents of this State and within 45 days for nonresident applicants. 

 

 

- The language for 30 days is still unchanged... so it's still toothless.

- Do I pay $2 for New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier embedded? Do I pay $5 for  firearms purchaser identifier embedded? What i the difference?

-  Do I pay $5 + 48* $2 = $101, so I get the ID + 48 embedded P2Ps, and they mark 1 off everytime I buy a handgun, like my metrocard?

[voyager9 3,434]

 

- The language for 30 days is still unchanged... so it's still toothless.

- Do I pay $2 for New Jersey firearms purchaser identifier embedded? Do I pay $5 for firearms purchaser identifier embedded? What i the difference?

- Do I pay $5 + 48* $2 = $101, so I get the ID + 48 embedded P2Ps, and they mark 1 off everytime I buy a handgun, like my metrocard?

I'm pretty sure a square root is involved.

 

I think the $2 is part of the original law that is made irrelevant after the new ID's take over. So $5 would be required to add a p2p to your electronic ID.

 

The way I originally read it i thought maybe they were doing away with having to have a new p2p for each purchase. Though you may be right and I could have read too much into it. There is little hope they would do anything to make it easier for us.

[Guest]

I cant wait to leave this state and all this BS just hastens it.  I will take my guns, which they wont care about, but when I take the jobs I help provide they can go burn in hell.

 

+1 - I directly employ two guys and indirectly (business related spending) employ countless people

[Guest]

those of you planing on staying in this state are looking at the problem the wrong way. You need to stop trying to figure out how to comply the the law and start looking for legal ways to fight the law BEFORE it becomes law.

 

There is at least one firearm related lawyer on this site, why doesn't he start a class action??

[matty 810]

Great idea! You know that lawsuits require plaintiffs, right? That's great that you are volunteering to be the first plaintiff, and then have to collect a couple hundred or thousand, then be certified as a class. I'll be happy to be a member of that class, let me know what lawyer you choose. Thanks for volunteering your time and effort, I can't wait to see the results!

those of you planing on staying in this state are looking at the problem the wrong way. You need to stop trying to figure out how to comply the the law and start looking for legal ways to fight the law BEFORE it becomes law.

 

There is at least one firearm related lawyer on this site, why doesn't he start a class action??

[wooly bugger 1]

I'm reading the bill now and see that it puts in a clever poison pill to the separate FID option.

 

In section 1, it states that an FID can be either a DL with endorsement or a separate FID, TBD by the AG.

 

Under section 4 e 1 it states: " (1)  A firearms purchaser identification card shall remain valid, and the affirmation of that fact shall be embedded on a holder’s driver’s license or identification card, and each replacement or renewal thereof, until that person becomes disqualified under the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3."

 

So, a DL endorsement is good for life.

 

But then in the new section 10d: "d.    A firearms purchaser identifier that displays a digitalized color picture of the card holder and issued pursuant to this act, shall be valid for a period of four years, unless the holder shall otherwise become subject to any of the disabilities set forth in subsection c. of N.J.S.2C.58-3.  A firearms purchaser identifier issued pursuant to this section shall expire on the last day of the 48th calendar month following the calendar month in which it was issued, at which time the firearms purchaser identifier may be renewed in the same manner and under the same conditions that applied to original applications required under this act and N.J.S.2C:58-3."

 

So, if we get our wish of a separate FID, we'll be reapplying for the damned thing every 4  years. Which, in the current environment, means that as soon as you get it, you'll start reapplying for the next 4 year cycle in a constant bureaucratic nightmare.

 

Is this just blatant stupidity on the part of the authors of this hastily thrown together travesty, or is it something more sinister?

Right now, I find the prospect of reapplying to exercise my rights every 4 years the most appalling feature.

 

EDIT: Wow, just finished reading the whole thing. This is much worse than the original and will become a serious cluster F if it's not vetoed. If the separate FID with constant renewals gets chosen by our AG, the system will seize up, and no one will be able to buy anything for however many years it takes for a lawsuit to clear it up. I foresee lots of FFLs going out of business.

Also, no limitations on how the ammunition database can be used. No mandatory destruction of records after a certain time period. So basically, the police will be able to review all of your ammunition purchases from the date of passage of this bill for the rest of your life.

[voyager9 3,434]

I skimmed it at 0400 so my recollection may be off but I thought there was a section that talked about the process we would have to go through for the FID when renewing our DL. I thought the bureaucratic mess was the same in either case.

[wooly bugger 1]

I skimmed it at 0400 so my recollection may be off but I thought there was a section that talked about the process we would have to go through for the FID when renewing our DL. I thought the bureaucratic mess was the same in either case.

There's two processes described and they're going to fob the decision on which to follow to the AG so he can take the fall when either one crashes and burns. This is getting surreal.

[matty 810]

Well, this mess gives the soon to be Thin Man all the more reason to veto the thing. UBCs are something all Republicans are against (mostly) it seems, so I don't see how he can let that go and not have it thrown back in his face when he runs for prez. Not to mention the above, where creating a whole new system falls to the AG & NJSP, with them taking the blame. I really doubt that even Cheesehead & Fuentes want to take the blame for the iminent failure.

 

get on teh fone I am sending my faxes now

[anactivegrenade 25]

As someone who's still waiting on his FID to be signed off (it's been sitting on my chief's desk for the past 2 months), if these laws are signed and brought into effect, am I screwed???

[222 3]

As someone who's still waiting on his FID to be signed off (it's been sitting on my chief's desk for the past 2 months), if these laws are signed and brought into effect, am I screwed???

 

That's a fair question.  In general, anyone who is already in-progress should not be impacted more than others.

 - If Attorney General elects to embed into driver's license

  - 25 months after effective date, the new embedded Driver's ID will start being issued

  

-  If Attorney General elects to have separate embedded photo id.

 - Superintendent will implement phase-in-program.  Superintendent will set expire date.

 - Phase-in program will begin on 7th month after effective date and complete no later than 24th month.

 

- Either way

 - 25 months after effective date, Attorney General will have a system for retailers to read the embedded info.

  - 25th to 61st months after effective date, superintendent will "test" the system.  Unless if Superintendent determines system is seriously flawed

  - 73rd month after effective date, everyone without an embedded ID will not be able to buy a gun (or ammo).

[222 3]

 

So, a DL endorsement is good for life.

 

...

So, if we get our wish of a separate FID, we'll be reapplying for the damned thing every 4  years. Which, in the current environment, means that as soon as you get it, you'll start reapplying for the next 4 year cycle in a constant bureaucratic nightmare.

 

Is this just blatant stupidity on the part of the authors of this hastily thrown together travesty, or is it something more sinister?

 

Right now, I find the prospect of reapplying to exercise my rights every 4 years the most appalling feature.

 

 

Good catch.  I can't help but read it the exact same way.... with the exact same assessment.

[voyager9 3,434]

 

 

 

So, a DL endorsement is good for life.

 

...

So, if we get our wish of a separate FID, we'll be reapplying for the damned thing every 4 years. Which, in the current environment, means that as soon as you get it, you'll start reapplying for the next 4 year cycle in a constant bureaucratic nightmare.

 

Is this just blatant stupidity on the part of the authors of this hastily thrown together travesty, or is it something more sinister?

 

 

Right now, I find the prospect of reapplying to exercise my rights every 4 years the most appalling feature.

 

 

 

Good catch. I can't help but read it the exact same way.... with the exact same assessment.

How is a DL good for life? The bill says that some sort of renewal of the FID and P2p endorsement occurs when you renew your DL. That's also every 4. Seems to be a wash whether its in the DL or separate as far as renewal goes.

[Z71 4]

what this gonna be like having many thousands more than normal of bg checks occuring at the same time every 4yrs...having a bg check approval in time to renew your dl or whatever card they invent...the only way out is to follow the pa. nics system instead of the triple invest and personal reference nj does..

[wooly bugger 1]

How is a DL good for life? The bill says that some sort of renewal of the FID and P2p endorsement occurs when you renew your DL. That's also every 4. Seems to be a wash whether its in the DL or separate as far as renewal goes.

The P2P endorsement has to be renewed, but as I interpret it, not the FID. Here's the section:

 

" (1)  A firearms purchaser identification card shall remain valid, and the affirmation of that fact shall be embedded on a holder’s driver’s license or identification card, and each replacement or renewal thereof, until that person becomes disqualified under the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3."

 

I'm not sure whether requiring every 4 year reapplications in the separate FID option is a poison pill, so that we can't get everything we want (permanent separate FID), or if it's just sloppiness from cutting and pasting the original Assembly bill that required every 5 year reapplication. It just doesn't make sense why one option should be permanent and the other should last only 4 years.

 

I guess this is why in a democracy, there is a public comments period before a legislative body votes on a bill.This stuff has been available to us literally 24 hours, and depending on what time they vote on Monday, it will have been less than one business day for public comment.

 

The senators aren't any smarter than us, and I'm sure a lot of them are a hell of a lot less interested in the technicalities. Most will just skim it Monday morning and vote for it without even knowing what they're bringing down on us. It's pure indifferent hatred. Kind of like seeing an annoying cockroach and just stomping on it rather than shooing it out the door.

[wooly bugger 1]

what this gonna be like having many thousands more than normal of bg checks occuring at the same time every 4yrs...having a bg check approval in time to renew your dl or whatever card they invent...the only way out is to follow the pa. nics system instead of the triple invest and personal reference nj does..

It won't be every 4 years. It will be a permanent rolling process, since the reapplication process will be phased in and there will be new FID holders coming in continuously. Assuming 1MM gun owners, that's 250k FID applications each year, on top of the current volume. And this will grow every year, as new FID holders enter the reapplication pool. There's no way they'll be able to process FIDs in any semblance of an acceptable time period, unless they make massive infrastructure investments, which obviously they won't. And now that FID and P2P will be needed for handgun ammo purchases, that probably means years where we'll be stuck in limbo with no ammo. The worst case scenario is if PA does what they do now with guns and require that sales of ammo to out of state residents must meet the requirements of that resident's home state. Then there's just no way out.

[wooly bugger 1]

If I were the praying type, I'd pray that someone from NJ2AS or ANJRPC (you know, the guys doing "the heavy lifting" behind the scenes) is feeding this wisdom into Sweeney's ear in real time and making it clear that when his rural constituents walk into this s*** storm, he's toast.

 

I'm willing to believe that he just hasn't thought through some of these provisions to their full implications. If he had, he's smart enough to know that he'll face a revolt at home as soon as the good old boy fudds get hit in the face with this and finally wake up to what he just did to them.

[ogfarmer 138]

Sweeney and Co. have closed ears to NJ2AS and NJARPC. They are sucking the teet of Brian Miller and Co.

[siderman 1,138]

If I were the praying type, I'd pray that someone from NJ2AS or ANJRPC (you know, the guys doing "the heavy lifting" behind the scenes) is feeding this wisdom into Sweeney's ear in real time and making it clear that when his rural constituents walk into this s*** storm, he's toast.

 

I'm willing to believe that he just hasn't thought through some of these provisions to their full implications. If he had, he's smart enough to know that he'll face a revolt at home as soon as the good old boy fudds get hit in the face with this and finally wake up to what he just did to them.

 

 They'll just pacify the the true fudds with an exemption, hunting license= sg ammo purchase permit. They all go home happy their problom is solved.

[maintenanceguy 510]

If I were the praying type, I'd pray that someone from NJ2AS or ANJRPC (you know, the guys doing "the heavy lifting" behind the scenes) is feeding this wisdom into Sweeney's ear in real time and making it clear that when his rural constituents walk into this s*** storm, he's toast.

 

I'm willing to believe that he just hasn't thought through some of these provisions to their full implications. If he had, he's smart enough to know that he'll face a revolt at home as soon as the good old boy fudds get hit in the face with this and finally wake up to what he just did to them.

 

This idea is "on the street" here from a post on the NJ2AS facebook page: http://bit.ly/ZY2QXm

[wooly bugger 1]

Highly doubtful this will make a difference, given that the vote is tomorrow, but here's what I just sent to Sweeney and Norcross:

 

Dear Senator Sweeney,

 

I am writing to express my profound disappointment with the way in which public comment on S2723 has been handled. The amended bill was released to the public on Friday night in preparation for a Monday vote, thus allowing no time for comment.

 

I am particularly disappointed that you and the other sponsors inserted an 11th hour FID option; that of a separate document that expires every 4 years. It is worse that you leave the choice between the nonexpiring driver license endorsement and the expiring separate FID to the attorney general. Though on the surface, the choice between the options may seem a technicality, in fact there are major differences in impact. The choice should be made with due process, by accountable legislators. Not by fiat by an attorney general who cannot be held accountable by the voters who will suffer the consequences of his choice.

 

Both choices are bad. A DL endorsement eliminates the possibility of visibly demonstrating an FID to anyone without a special scanner. The every 4 year reapplication process mandated by a separate, expiring FID will be a bureaucratic nightmare. Under the current system, what used to be a 15 minute "instant background check" has buckled under the pressure of a slight increase in volume and now takes 3-4 weeks. The current system can't handle NEW FID applications, let alone an additional yearly burden of 25% of all existing FID holders. Given the contempt for gun owners recently revealed by some of your colleagues, it is inconceivable that there will be any significant investment in infrastructure to help gun owners. Instead, the system will collapse, and Senators Weinberg, Greenstein, and others will take the credit for a clever end run around gun ownership in the state.

 

There is a simple fix: a non-expiring, separate FID. Given the multiple redundancies in background checks required at point of sale, and given the capability with the new system to instantly deactivate an existing FID, there is absolutely no legitimate reason for anyone to have to reapply for their FID every 4 years.

 

I understand that may of your constituents are gun owners and hunters. Unfortunately, most are not aware of what's happening right now. But if S2723 passes, there will be a rude and unpleasant awakening. Please use your considerable influence to fix the flaws in this bill before it's too late.

 

 

Sincerely,

[Barms 98]

I just saw Barbara Buono on NJ12 saying that if the magazine limit is not included in this bill she will not sign it..

 

that's good right?   the mag limit is not in this bill, right?   (i've read it online but my mind is dizzy from deciphering the legale-eze of it..)