Unpinning Ranger Plates

[TheDon 3]

First, let me say that I am a huge fan of Midwest PX compliant mags.  I have ordered at least 20 from you over the years and I recommend you every time someone asks where to find 15-round NJ mags.  But one thing irks me: I cannot remove your baseplates for cleaning. 

 

I was able to find and drift out the pins, but the ranger plate still will not budge.  Are they also epoxied?  Is there a way to remove the baseplate without ruining the ranger plate? 

 

Thanks for your advice. 

[SkiingGunMonkey 10]

They are meant to be permanent modifications, if you could take them apart easily by pushing out a few pins they wouldn't be NJ legal. Assuming you're doing this at a friend's house in PA, I wouldn't post about it here. 

[TheDon 3]

I am not aware of any law that says you cannot disassemble and clean magazines. 

[lunker 274]

You have a 20/30 round magazine that would be illegal in New Jersey except for the fact that it is "permanently modified" to hold 15 or less. If you could remove the baseplate, you could just as easily turn it back into a 20/30 rounder.

 

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[SkiingGunMonkey 10]

If you disassemble a magazine that is modified to 15 rounds by way of an internal block the second you take such a magazine apart it becomes a "large capacity magazine" because it's now NOT permanently modified to hold 15 or fewer rounds. Further, if you have the capacity to easily take such a magazine apart it's not considered permanently modified. There certain examples in NJ law as to what permanently modified ISN'T, but none of what IS considered permanent

 

 

"Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. A large capacity ammunition magazine that has been permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition will cease to be defined as a "large capacity ammunition magazine." An ammunition magazine, which has been temporarily blocked or modified from holding more than 15 rounds, as by a piece of wood or a pin, is still considered to be a "large capacity ammunition magazine."

[Soju 153]

Is there are temporary block that can be removed after removing the baseplate or is the baseplate, spring, and follower designed to only allow for 15 rounds to function? There is nothing inherently illegal about being able to remove the baseplate of a modified magazine, depending on the modification.

[SkiingGunMonkey 10]

Given how midwest does these modifications, I'm assuming they just slide in a block in between the spring to stop the follower from moving any lower. This way they can keep the stock spring. They then just epoxy and pin the baseplate on. In this case, and most other cases of 15/20 or 15/30 pmags, it would be illegal to remove the baseplate and in theory you shouldn't be able to without destroying the magazine otherwise it wouldn't count as a permanent mod. I'm somewhat glad OP wasn't able to remove the baseplate even after fishing out the pins.

[Soju 153]

That makes sense then. Thanks for the info.

[TheDon 3]

Of course, not being able to actually see inside, I am guessing. 

However, I understand that they install a limiter inside the spring.  This limiter essentially becomes a blockage between the baseplate and the follower, preventing the follower from traveling further down the magazine cavity than the capacity allows. 

 

Midwest sells 10 and 5 round limiters for do-it-yourself conversions. 

http://midwestpx.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_53&products_id=558

 

 

No legal reason why I could not remove the base plate for cleaning as long as I do not remove the limiter. 

IMHO, epoxying the limiter to the follower would be a better approach for perminency than epoxying the ranger plate. 

 

I was kind of hoping for a response from Midwest PX. 

[SkiingGunMonkey 10]

If you have the capacity to remove the limiter though it's no longer permanent. I do agree that if you epoxied it to the follower that would be a better approach, but since it can be easily replaced it's also not permanent. I would love it if Ty chimed in as well. It's your call and your ass in the end so you get the final call.

[Soju 153]

 but since it can be easily replaced it's also not permanent.

 

Well that simply isn't true or make sense. Being able to replace something has nothing to do with being permanent or not. I can buy a 30 round magazine body to replace my 15 rounder, it doesn't make the 15 rounder illegal....some funky logic you got going there.

[SkiingGunMonkey 10]

Well that simply isn't true or make sense. Being able to replace something has nothing to do with being permanent or not. I can buy a 30 round magazine body to replace my 15 rounder, it doesn't make the 15 rounder illegal....some funky logic you got going there.

If you can take the magazine apart and all it takes is replacing a single piece to make it a 20 round magazine it was not permanently modified to not be a large capacity magazine making it illegal. I'm not a lawyer, that's my interpretation and what I believe to be the consensus here as well.

[Soju 153]

Replace with what? A part you own? Sure. A part you don't have? Not a chance. I can replace the stock of my AR with a collapsible one, but that doesn't make my rifle illegal. I can thread the barrel of it, but it doesn't make my rifle illegal. Just like you could remove the baseplate of a modified magazine, destroying it in the process, removing the limiter, and then buy a new baseplate. It doesn't mean your magazine is currently illegal. If that were the case, every person who owns any magazine for a semi-auto rifle in a magazine body that will hold more than 15 rounds, would be breaking the law, because they can replace various parts to get it to hold more. That is not the case. Replacement has nothing to do with what you currently possess. 

 

Why do you think modifying it one way is different than modifying it another way when both are permanent and the only difference is that you think it is easier to replace one part than another?  

[SkiingGunMonkey 10]

Replace with what? A part you own? Sure. A part you don't have? Not a chance. I can replace the stock of my AR with a collapsible one, but that doesn't make my rifle illegal. I can thread the barrel of it, but it doesn't make my rifle illegal. Just like you could remove the baseplate of a modified magazine, destroying it in the process, removing the limiter, and then buy a new baseplate. It doesn't mean your magazine is currently illegal. If that were the case, every person who owns any magazine for a semi-auto rifle in a magazine body that will hold more than 15 rounds, would be breaking the law, because they can replace various parts to get it to hold more. That is not the case. Replacement has nothing to do with what you currently possess. 

My point was that if you can take the magazine apart, without destroying it, and can turn it into a 20 round magazine it's illegal. Just having the replacement piece doesn't make it illegal, but my point was having a limiter attached to the follower inside the magazine body with the base plate NOT pinned and epoxied would, in my opinion, be illegal because it's easy to just swap out the piece in effect making the modification non permanent and not legal.

[Soju 153]

So you would agree that because I can simply swap out my AR stock with a collapsible one, that my AR is illegal too?

[SkiingGunMonkey 10]

So you would agree that because I can simply swap out my AR stock with a collapsible one, that my AR is illegal too?

Of course not, the law is written differently in this case. You're allowed to have a set of predefined evil features on your rifle. The law doesn't say you can't have the ability to remove the stock, it just says the stock itself can't collapse if you have another "evil" feature on your rifle. I'm sure you're familiar with the wording.

 

The magazine law, on the other hand, does say that the magazine has to be permanently modified to not accept more than 15 rounds and that temporary modifications that can be easily reversed keep the magazine, in the eyes of the law, a large capacity one. So if you can easily remove a piece from the magazine, in this case a limiter attached to a follower because the baseplate is not pinned and epoxied, it's NOT a permanent modification and it is a large capacity magazine.

[Soju 153]

I suppose if the magazine will function without a follower that would be correct. But I'm not thinking the law makes someone a criminal based on what they could hypothetically purchase (then again, this is NJ). I can easily buy a 30-round magazine in PA just as easily as I can buy a follower. In fact, simply buying a 30 rounder is even easier than buying a follower, taking apart my magazine, removing a part, and replacing it with the newly purchased one. Yet that is illegal? If so, I'll just add that to the growing list of absurd NJ gun laws.  

[Nikos 31]

Magpul and other companies sell limiters that reduce the magazine capacity of PMags by 5 or 10 rounds. Basically you replace the locking plate with the limiter and one can argue that since all the new components of this magazine, when assembled will result in a magazine capable of holding only "X" rounds so you should be safe. Problem is since the mag body can potentially have the capacity to hold more rounds, our lawmaker added that any alterations should be permanent.

 

Magpul limiters

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG286/22

 

 

Magpul disclaimer

NOTE: Will NOT make a banned magazine legal! This product is intended for TEMPORARY capacity reduction of PMAG AR/M4 GEN M3 magazines. This product does not constitute a permanent capacity reduction. The user is responsible for knowing applicable laws in any jurisdiction the restricts magazines based on capacity or regulates magazine capacity for hunting. Please check all laws and regulations of your state and locality to determine the legality of your host ammunition magazines.

 

[MidwestPX 172]

*sigh*  It's threads like these that are forcing higher cost alternatives for sealing magazines.

 

The pin is just one method of sealing.  There is a secondary method that is tougher to beat.  The pin serves as a visual indicator of modification.  It will be going away in the next few weeks as a new method of sealing is instituted.

 

Do not attempt to disassemble your magazines.  You void the warranty and also risk making yourself a felon.

[TheDon 3]

This is MagPul's solution to limiters. 

[MidwestPX 172]

Dropping Magpul's limiter into a magazine and using it in NJ would be a bad idea.  On it's own, I don't think it meets the criteria to be legal.  

[MidwestPX 172]

If you want to clean the mags (which I've never had to do even though I run my guns suppressed and break mags before they need cleaning), grab two basins of water and add soap to one.  Dunk the mag in the soapy water, depress the follower and swish it around.  Flip it upside down with the follower depressed to drain.  Repeat in the clean water.  Squirt some CLP if you feel the need for the spring even though it's a stainless steel spring.  Whatever was small enough to get in there will come out using this method.  However, as I said, it's highly unnecessary since both the follower and the magazine body include a Teflon additive that makes them self-lubricating.

[Nikos 31]

Now, to play devil's advocate: Are handgun magazines under the same scrutiny as those for the ARs?

 

Take a 9mm magazine for a full size pistol that can hold more than 15 rounds and compare it to one that is limited to 10 rounds. Both magazines have the same body length and both can be field stripped.

 

Has anyone compared these types of magazines and can the capacity be altered by swapping out the internals?

[Nikos 31]

This is MagPul's solution to limiters. 

 

Check my post above -- Magpul has a disclaimer using these limiters.

[TheDon 3]

Now, to play devil's advocate: Are handgun magazines under the same scrutiny as those for the ARs?

 

Take a 9mm magazine for a full size pistol that can hold more than 15 rounds and compare it to one that is limited to 10 rounds. Both magazines have the same body length and both can be field stripped.

 

Has anyone compared these types of magazines and can the capacity be altered by swapping out the internals?

+1

Sealing the mag case seems to be an overzealous interpretation of the law.  If the limiter replaces the lock plate and I do not own a standard lock plate, then I do not have the parts from which to assemble a large-capacity magazine.  But, I understand businesses do not want to waste money on lawyers and I understand that it is in fact cheaper for a business to be extra conservative than to risk defending itself in a lawsuit. 

 

I'll try rinsing them as MidwestPX recommended. 

Thanks for the advice. 

[MidwestPX 172]

Here's the issue with using just Magpul's limiter.  You can take a saw to it and bam, "large" capacity magazine.  You don't need a separate lockplate to run afoul of the law.  So the limiter on it's own is not a permanent modification therefore, the manufacturer must deny access to it through a permanent method.  That's why the baseplate is so difficult to remove however as I see these kinds of threads pop up with increased frequency, in the interest of protecting a customer from inadvertently making themselves a felon, I've made significant (thousands of dollars) capital investments to further enhance the permanence of modification.  

[Nikos 31]

Here's the issue with using just Magpul's limiter.  You can take a saw to it and bam, "large" capacity magazine.  You don't need a separate lockplate to run afoul of the law.  So the limiter on it's own is not a permanent modification therefore, the manufacturer must deny access to it through a permanent method.  That's why the baseplate is so difficult to remove however as I see these kinds of threads pop up with increased frequency, in the interest of protecting a customer from inadvertently making themselves a felon, I've made significant (thousands of dollars) capital investments to further enhance the permanence of modification.  

Ultrasonic welder?

[raz-0 1,259]

Here's the issue with using just Magpul's limiter.  You can take a saw to it and bam, "large" capacity magazine.  You don't need a separate lockplate to run afoul of the law.  So the limiter on it's own is not a permanent modification therefore, the manufacturer must deny access to it through a permanent method.  That's why the baseplate is so difficult to remove however as I see these kinds of threads pop up with increased frequency, in the interest of protecting a customer from inadvertently making themselves a felon, I've made significant (thousands of dollars) capital investments to further enhance the permanence of modification.  

 

 

Not that I disagree with your end conclusion, but plenty of 94 AWB complaint 10 rounders could be altered by drilling out the dimples stamped into the magazines, and tuning the mag to deal with any distortions form the process. Some you couldn't. Heck the bushmaster 10 rounders could be altered to ~15 with a drill, a saw, and some glue to fill the hole you drilled yet they qualified as permanent. 

 

Without the current panic, prices and availability were reasonable enough to be better off not worrying about it. 

[TheDon 3]

Here's the issue with using just Magpul's limiter.  You can take a saw to it and bam, "large" capacity magazine.  You don't need a separate lockplate to run afoul of the law.  So the limiter on it's own is not a permanent modification therefore, the manufacturer must deny access to it through a permanent method.  That's why the baseplate is so difficult to remove however as I see these kinds of threads pop up with increased frequency, in the interest of protecting a customer from inadvertently making themselves a felon, I've made significant (thousands of dollars) capital investments to further enhance the permanence of modification.  

I get it.  I am not faulting you.  The fault is in the dumb laws of this State.

The State making the argument that you have to seal the case because I could disassemble it and cut the limiter is ridiculous.

If I was so inclined, I could carefully saw the case in half, disassemble it, cut the limiter, reassemble it, epoxy and clamp the case, and bam, "large capacity ammunition magazine."  Or, I could just drive to PA and buy 30-rounders off the shelf.  But I am not so inclined.

 

NJ forgets; we are not criminals, it is the State's laws that make us criminals.

[MidwestPX 172]

Ultrasonic welder?