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FN Five SeveN MK2 Pistol

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This is a very graphic account of what the SS192 does to tissue in vital areas.

 

 

 

 

I'm wondering if this didn't happen to a lot of people - 5.7mm bullets flying around a room and cutting through cubicle walls as well as people's limbs and penetrating yet more victims. A cubicle wall as well as a human forearm isn't going to slow a 5.7mm bullet very much at all unless it hits bone.

 

 

 

 

 

A testament to how deadly a weapon, with little recoil, allowing such easy follow up shots, can be. I propose had he used a traditional caliber weapon, that he would have fired much fewer shots in the short time during his murderous rampage. I guess this statement is obvious as there are few if any weapons that can match the FiveseveN's capacity. But, if we temporarily allow equal capacity among all firearm choices, I think the 5-7's recoil would still have allowed more shots fired regardless of the traditional caliber choice. I also think fatigue would have set into his wrist causing his aim to suffer dramatically with larger calibers. 146 shots of .40 or .45 caliber loads in less than 10 mins. is going to affect your aim. 

 

What am I trying to prove with all of this? I guess I am just responding to those who would say that we are lucky that Hasan didn't choose a more "potent" caliber pistol. As sick as it sounds, considering the shooters experience, amount of damage intended, short period of time to do it, I say he picked the "best" weapon he could have, short of a fully-automatic smg.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, devastating bone damage.

 

"I couldn’t get a clear

shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire."

 

That's a good thing because she certainly couldn't shoot very well. Her weapon carried 14 rounds (including the round in the chamber) and she missed him with all her shots. She wasn't further from him than 7 yards.

 

The bad guy had the FiveseveN, the good (girl) had the Beretta 9mm. The bad guy was shot zero times from close range, the good girl was shot 2 or 3 times with injuries to her wrist, knee, and leg. It was also reported that her gun jammed as she was falling to the ground when her leg was shattered. Perhaps if she would have been firing the FiveseveN things would have turned out differently for her? Dare I say this against the "vaunted" 9mm Beretta? 

 

 

 

 

 

Officer Todd, the one that hit Hasan in the CNS and crippled him, said he shot at Hasan under fire but there are conflicting accounts of what really happened. In the following article, an eye witness stated that Todd caught up with Hasan after "rounding a building" and shot him while Hasan was reloading his FiveseveN.  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us...pagewanted=all   It is widely believed that Hasan was shot in the back.

 

 

 

 

 

Man, you just love to eat up other people's bandwidth with your blather.

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Nobody has said the 5.7 is taking the hunting world by storm...lol. The point being made is that people are surprised by the damage a little round like the 5.7 inflicts on animals it is not supposed to be able to take down. And no, these aren't all just head shots.

 

SK - My response was to this comment you made;

"While the factory ammo doesn't tap the full potential of the Five-seveN, it has proven to be more than enough to take down humans as well as medium-sized game."

 

I said it is not taking the hunting world by storm. It won't. Those people who "are surprised by the damage a little round like the 5.7 inflicts on animals it is not supposed to be able to take down" have limited knowledge killing game. YouTube and various firearm forums have spawned countless experts. Astute folks know what the simple yet efficient .22LR can do. But that's a poor choice as well.  

 

The 5.7x28 is a boutique cartridge, designed for the boutique group of arms it was designed for. It has its place, but not for medium game. It's a capable varmint round if you can find a chambering for it in something other than an FN-product. Despite its ballyhooed penetration capabilities on gelatin, its 40 gr bullet would be a poor choice for raking shots on quartering animals above 100 lbs.

 

If Col. Charles Askins were alive today and still writing about cartridges and rifles, he would pen the 5.7x28 as another flash in the pan.

 

The debate will always rage on between the Cult of High Velocity and folks from the school of Big-Bullet Frontal Area coupled with High Sectional Density. It's nothing new, it's been going on for a century now.

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Yeah. you're right. It's a conspiracy. all the LEO that had failures lied about it. There is no "verifiable data on their claims".

 

Therefore, they must be lying, just to malign your precious little 5.7. Geez.

 

"All the LEO that had failures"

 

Have you ever considered what that could mean? Do you mean their weapon jammed? Failed to feed? Didn't fire? Because if you are still trying to say that the weapon wasn't able to bring a suspect down with a properly placed shot, then sir, you haven't learned one thing in this thread. 

 

It should be absolutely crystal clear by now to anybody that has read this thread that the 5.7x28mm has more than enough energy to reach the CNS on a human through skin, muscle, bone, or body armor. The ONLY way it could "fail" is due to user error or a malfunction in the gun which you NEVER hear about with these weapons.

 

Friend, this isn't my first time around the block on the 5.7 debate. I have read and participated in many, many 5.7 debates and there is always one person that talks about these failures in the line of duty. Nobody has a clue what a weapon "failure" is, and nobody has EVER produced one shred of evidence of a 5.7 "failing" in the line of duty. It's merely an opinion from somebody that preferred his .45 or his 9mm and nothing else. All you have to do is look at your own attitude to know how one might be biased against a new and exotic round.

 

If you want to take the literal (and correct) definition of a weapon failure, you will have to look to other weapons besides the Five-seveN and PS90 to develop a list. It is quite clear even to the haters that both weapons are as reliable as the sun coming up. 

 

If you want to erroneously define a weapon failure as a bad guy still coming at you after you shoot him several times then I can provide you with 10 solid pages of "weapon failures" in every platform used in modern police agencies starting with this one:

 

The 9mm and .45 ACP are proven to work well with good shot placement, and they are proven to work very, very poorly with poor shot placement. The unofficial record for "most gunshot wounds survived" goes to a New York man that was shot 21 times by NYPD with the "9mm proven round."
 
 
 
A 23-year-old man has dodged death after being shot 21 times by police during a shoot-out at a New York street party.
 
<snip>
 
"I would say more than 20 gunshot wounds is a record," Dr Vincent DiMaio said.
 
"Of course, the real issue is where you get shot. One bullet can kill you, but believe it or not, a body can survive a lot of bullet wounds."

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Man, you just love to eat up other people's bandwidth with your blather.

 

Your acrimonious attitude towards me and your continued participation in this thread indicates you are having a real battle inside over what I'm saying. I would advise either just avoiding the thread, or reading what I say with an open mind and allowing just a tiny shred of light into your narrow point of view. Both options will give you more peace.

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SK - My response was to this comment you made;

"While the factory ammo doesn't tap the full potential of the Five-seveN, it has proven to be more than enough to take down humans as well as medium-sized game."

 

I said it is not taking the hunting world by storm. It won't. Those people who "are surprised by the damage a little round like the 5.7 inflicts on animals it is not supposed to be able to take down" have limited knowledge killing game. YouTube and various firearm forums have spawned countless experts. Astute folks know what the simple yet efficient .22LR can do. But that's a poor choice as well.  

 

The 5.7x28 is a boutique cartridge, designed for the boutique group of arms it was designed for. It has its place, but not for medium game. It's a capable varmint round if you can find a chambering for it in something other than an FN-product. Despite its ballyhooed penetration capabilities on gelatin, its 40 gr bullet would be a poor choice for raking shots on quartering animals above 100 lbs.

 

If Col. Charles Askins were alive today and still writing about cartridges and rifles, he would pen the 5.7x28 as another flash in the pan.

 

The debate will always rage on between the Cult of High Velocity and folks from the school of Big-Bullet Frontal Area coupled with High Sectional Density. It's nothing new, it's been going on for a century now.

 

You need to understand that the use of the 5.7 to take down medium-sized game is not for the purpose of creating a new niche in the hunting world, it is to prove to the tester and others who are interested, that even the weakest 5.7 target round you can fire out of the pistol has enough energy and penetration to take down sizeable animals. And I don't mean inhumanely either. Many reports from deer "autopsies" describe "boiling the lungs", tearing the heart in two, etc. etc. Watch the PS90 take down a fairly large (200lb+?) hog as fast as a typical .308. in the video I provided. It actually is quite surprising and is surprising to the hunters that try it. Hogs are not easy to kill. I actually have a report from an officer describing the SS190 taking out a suspect and splitting his heart in two when the M.E. cut him open. Nobody had see anything like it with regards to a pistol wound.

 

Take the data for what it's worth. Animals are shot with common caliber weapons and then shot with the 5.7 with the damage either being equal or greater in some cases with the 5.7. The round is small, but it's bullet behavior/construction is intelligent and velocity is high, both of those traits lead the round to outperform in tissue and penetration relative to the typical person's assumptions. 

 

Now I'm not advocating that people start using the 5.7 as a regular hunting choice. Even the 5.56 is illegal to hunt deer with in many places. It's best to "overkill" somewhat when choosing a hunting rifle to make up for poor shots.

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I have literally a limitless supply of facts and reports comparing the 5.7 to all the other calibers in ballistic gelatin, animals, humans, wood, concrete, windshields, etc. etc. etc.

 

You ought to see the mountain of news reports along with gory photos from Mexican news agencies where the 5.7 has been used to kill 100's of people. The news over in Mexico is very liberal about showing photos of gunshot victims. It might be some of the best data yet, but isn't really suitable for most people's taste. Lots of blood, lots of death, lots of bullet holes. Most news articles have photos of the 5.7 casings lying around as well.

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SK, the info that does make it back to the public, likely was never intended to, especially in the case of mil ops. So just because it didnt make it back to the internet doesnt mean it doesnt exist in closed circles. Those closed circles know what they know and make their decisions accordingly. I do not think the Ft Hood case is an indication of anything. I think you will find most active shooter situations create a slanted statistic. But if Im tracking correctly, he shot 45 people of which 13 died. If you contrast that with Virgina tech where 49 people were shot, 32 people died. Can I conclude the 9mm is more effective? No. I am sure there are a million factors to both cases that make deriving any info from them an unworthy pursuit. And frankly I do not care to talk about victims this way so I wont be speaking further in this vien of the conversation. I believe my point is made.

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SK, the info that does make it back to the public, likely was never intended to, especially in the case of mil ops. So just because it didnt make it back to the internet doesnt mean it doesnt exist in closed circles. Those closed circles know what they know and make their decisions accordingly. I do not think the Ft Hood case is an indication of anything. I think you will find most active shooter situations create a slanted statistic. But if Im tracking correctly, he shot 45 people of which 13 died. If you contrast that with Virgina tech where 49 people were shot, 32 people died. Can I conclude the 9mm is more effective? No. I am sure there are a million factors to both cases that make deriving any info from them an unworthy pursuit. And frankly I do not care to talk about victims this way so I wont be speaking further in this vien of the conversation. I believe my point is made.

 

 

These closed circles... do they fly around in black helicopters too? 

 

 

 

The unusually high fatality rate at Virginia Tech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_tech_massacre) was due to the fact that 31 of the 33 deceased were shot in the head. The average mass shooter, fortunately, does not achieve that sort of shot placement. Per news reports, most of the wounded survivors at Fort Hood were shot in limbs and other non-vital areas of their bodies.
 
The soldiers at Fort Hood were highly motivated during that attack, one way or the other; all of them were very intent on surviving and helping others survive. Many of the victims described feeling the effects of adrenalin during the shooting, and two of the victims even charged the shooter with chairs (according to the pre-trial testimony, both were killed with shots to the chest before they could reach him).
 

 

44 People were injured at Fort Hood that day and 14 died - 12 at the scene and 2 at the hospital. That puts the fatality rate Hasan achieved at Fort Hood with the Five-seveN higher than the national gunshot fatality rate involving all pistol calibers. 

 

Any other softballs you would like for me to smash out of the park? :)

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Let me share some public info from law enforcement or military involving the 5.7 in the line of duty:

 

 

 

 

 
I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon.
 
<snip>
 
The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.
 
<snip>
 
If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.
 
-- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below)
 
 
 
 
Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."
 
 
 
 
S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division.
 
“I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.”
 
Two more examples:
 
http://web.archive.org/web/200209030...c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver)
 
 
 
 
 
Here is some info from FiveSeven forum.
 
"- The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident. The SB193 subsonic was not (to my knowledge) introduced until 1999.
 
- Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find.
 
- The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either."
 
- Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation.
 
- Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons.
 
- Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived.
 
- I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there."
 
- Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject.
 
- Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings.
 
- I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything. 
 
 
Those are most of the shooting details I have. The others are too vague to draw much from. I do know that a PD in South Carolina (not sure specifically which department, as there are several PDs in SC using the P90) has shot multiple BGs with it. I wouldn't say there have been enough shootings to date to conclusively prove that the 5.7x28 is adequate, but the shootings we're aware of certainly give more likelihood/probability that the round will turn out. This thread might also interest you -- it contains a list of US agencies using the P90 and/or Five-seveN."
 
"- Firstly, of the Houston SWAT shooting it is often claimed that Sandy Wall works or has worked for FNH USA. This is false. Secondly, it is claimed that since this shooting involved 5.56 rounds also hitting the subject, it isn't a legitimate case for the 5.7x28mm. However, not only did the article author state that "The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets" and then "In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well", but it has also been stated elsewhere that the 5.56 rounds impacted IIRC on the hands/arms of the subject.
 
- The Jacksonville, FL shooting(s) are often severely represented. Some 5.7 opponents even go so far as to claim that the incident involved "all 50 rounds into the BG" and that the victim(s) merely reacting by "asking the officers to stop shooting them". Not only do statements from Jacksonville PD indicate that none of these subjects survived, but no one from or in contact with Jacksonville PD has given details on where or exactly how many times the subjects in these shootings were hit.
 
**NEW INFO**
 

Here is a 2003 Florida Times-Union article on a Jacksonville shooting with the P90. To give everyone some background, it is frequently claimed by detractors that the P90 performed poorly in shootings with Jacksonville SO SWAT. In some of the more absurd stories, it's claimed that the subject was shot 50 times and that he said "stop shooting me with that thing". 
 
Of course, none of these details are claimed in this news article. Instead, it says the subject died after being shot 15 times and there is no indication that he fired back at SWAT after being shot. The SWAT officer most likely fired one burst (at 900 RPM, 15 shots is a one second trigger squeeze) or a series of short bursts. Regardless, the subject was stopped and no one else was harmed. A search of the website doesn't bring up any similar incidents. Here is the article for your information:
 
Quote:
 
 
LAW & DISORDER: Pair of police shootings justified, Shorstein says
 
 
By Paul Pinkham
Times-Union staff writer, 
 
 
Jacksonville police officers who shot an armed drug dealer and a suspected bank robber in separate incidents last week were justified in using deadly force, State Attorney Harry Shorstein said yesterday.
 
Shorstein said he expects the death of Dwight James Jr., who was shot by a SWAT officer 15 times with a P-90 machine gun, to be reviewed by the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office Firearms Review Board.
 
James, 26, was shot July 15 during an undercover cocaine investigation after he aimed a .45-caliber automatic revolver at police, Shorstein said.
 
"If a drug dealer, during the course of a drug transaction, points a firearm at a law enforcement officer, there's a very good chance that he will be killed," Shorstein said.
 
Shorstein said he hasn't decided whether to charge another man who was with James with felony murder, a law that allows murder charges against a felon if someone dies during the commission of the crime. Gordon Lamar Polite, 22, already faces drug charges.
 
Shorstein said he's leaning against felony murder, which normally is used in armed robbery cases.
 
<snip>
 
 
 
 
 
 
- I'm aware of another incident in 2002 where a 5.7 round ricocheted and struck a Duluth, GA police officer in the hip, injuring her. Some try to cite this as a case where the round 'failed to stop'. "
 
Bellevue, NE SWAT killed a pit bull in 2003 during a drug raid; it was shot with two rounds of SS190 out of a Five-seveN pistol. I know of five deer being killed by one of our members with a Five-seveN, none of them taking more than one round. One of our members has used his Five-seveN to kill small/medium-sized hogs (see that thread here) as well as another member that has used his Five-seveN with handloads on badger, fox, deer and rabbits (see that here) with good results. All of these cases were with civilian ammunition or handloads, except for the Belleview, NE incident.
 
Keep in mind, these cases were the performance of the rounds out of the shorter pistol barrel, out of the P90's 10-inch barrel, or the PS90's 16-inch barrel, performance will be even better. Between the Five-seveN and P90, there is a velocity difference of about 200 fps. SS190 averages about 2100 fps out of the Five-seveN, and 2350 fps out of the P90. The PS90 (civilian version of the P90) gives about a solid 225 fps increase over the standard P90, meaning it will give about 2600 fps with the better ammo types -- SS190, SS192, SS195.
 
Also, for any worried that SS192/SS195 performance will not parallel SS190 performance, please note that the tissue damage and penetration of the two in testing is virtually equal. Both yaw with no expansion or fragmentation, and gel penetration is identical in testing done by Ammolab's David Difabio."
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, so I've shared some DOCUMENTED accounts of the 5.7x28mm being used in the line of duty. Now please, PLEASE, for the love of God, give me some documentation on how the 5.7x28mm "FAILED" in the line of duty. Or whatever it is that keeps getting regurgitated and NEVER has been revealed. Did a gun blow up? Did it spin around and shoot the officer holding it? Did the bullets bounce off the suspect? Did the suspect catch the bullets in his mouth and spit them back out injuring an officer? 

 

 

 

 

 

2:00 minute mark for a memory refresher....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbk7UqLiOFM

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Usually they do. Your starting to act like a jerkoff because your ugly baby is under attack. Do you have ANY articles within say the past 5 years? Because your an internet commando, you are making the assumption everyone else is. That would be a mistake on your part.

 

SpeedKills/Penatrator, clearly you are a crusader for the platform. It is entertaining to me that the same accusations about rhetoric vs discusion are made elsewhere. This makes it clear there is no point in discussing it with you further because its not a discussion, its a sales pitch!

 

http://forums.officer.com/t174587-3/

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Usually they do. Your starting to act like a jerkoff because your ugly baby is under attack. Do you have ANY articles within say the past 5 years? Because your an internet commando, you are making the assumption everyone else is. That would be a mistake on your part.

 

SpeedKills/Penatrator, clearly you are a crusader for the platform. It is entertaining to me that the same accusations about rhetoric vs discusion are made elsewhere. This makes it clear there is no point in discussing it with you further because its not a discussion, its a sales pitch!

 

http://forums.officer.com/t174587-3/

 

Please provide some documentation of the 5.7 platform "failing" in the line of duty. Are you going to make me beg? I have been looking for it for years now. I can't seem to get a link or anything. Just he said, she said...  All the hard data I seem to come up with is always positive. That makes no sense to me. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Carried by:

 

40+ countries...

 

100's of U.S. agencies...

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Here are the two stories I have come across with all my reading; the please stop shooting me story and the P90 failing to break a rib story. I copy and paste this story for your reading enjoyment. At the end there is a very substantial gelatin test performed by 5.7 enthusiasts and haters alike. The results are surprising: 
 
 
 
 
 
 

It's sad that there are still so many people out there believing that the 5.7x28mm platform is an ineffective tool against bad guys - alas, the Tragedy of the Internets. You have certain types of people that find it exceedingly difficult to create a unique thought. These types of people will cling to the opinion - like a puppy to its momma's teet - of whom they perceive to be knowledgeable in the field of the topic of question. They accept that the "experts" certainly don't have it all figured out, but are willing to gamble on being led astray in exchange for the comforts of groupthink and deference of fact-finding responsibility. In a nutshell, they are lazy and weak. 
 
Recently there were a group of guys that got together to - once and for all - prove or disprove the 5.7 platform as a sufficient answer to human threats. This was going to be attended by 5.7 fanboys as well as a contingent of the Gary Roberts DDS Borg Collective. Of course those from the "dark side" - or should I say dentist's side - came with preconceived notions all built around hearsay, 10-20 year old research, and the words (most copy-pasted) from one very crusty and biased internet legend. 
 
To make a long story short, their eyes were opened. When they saw the reality of the effectiveness of the 5.7x28mm platform, they were left in a very uncomfortable position. How could their leader at M4Carbine have been so wrong? With highly "scientific" anecdotes like these: "One of our guys shot a gunman the other day with the P90 at about 7 yards. One round failed to penetrate the rib. Thats right, the SS190 AP round stuck into the rib just under the skin. -Gary Roberts DDS" - how in the world could you ever doubt their credibility? I'm sure he wasn't using interweb hearsay as a basis to infer that the P90 shooting SS190 ammo could be compared to an air rifle was he? That wouldn't be the kind of thing a professional ballistician who enjoys the ear of the FBI would do; that's the kind of comment you would expect from a faceless forum troll. 
 
We've all heard the story about the brave military officer at Fort Hood that had her femur shattered in hundreds of pieces from over-the-counter 5.7 civilian ammo fired through the Five-seveN pistol (fires 5.7mm rounds at less velocity than a P90). We also know the femur to be the strongest and largest bone in the human body. On the other hand, ribs are much more vulnerable. It's not uncommon to hear of rib fractures due to coughing and sneezing. The 5.7x28mm isn't the perfect bullet, but one thing it does very well is penetrate objects - especially from 7 yards. SS190 fired out of the P90 travels at 2400fps and delivers 400 ft-lbs of energy to its target and begins to tumble within an inch or two after impact. It will penetrate CRISAT or Level IIIA vests at a range of 200m. The P90's rate of fire is 900 RPM - that's 15 rounds every second. If the story about SS190 stopping just under the skin is true, the man who was shot was standing behind at least 1/4 inch of solid steel. 
 
Another P90 urban legend touted like gospel from the mountaintop's of places like Lightfighter and M4Carbine is this little piece of fiction: "The other guy was shot 10-12 times before he told the officers 'stop shooting me' and gave up." Now we all know that ONE P90 will deliver 15 rounds in 1 second. However, based on "expert testimony" from this esteemed ballistician, we are supposed to believe that all this action and subsequent surrender happened within 2/3rds of a second?  Perhaps they were shooting their P90's in semi-auto? If so then why? You would be taking the P90's greatest advantage (high rate of accurate fire) out of the equation. Do police officers only shoot one or two times to bring down a threat? No, usually it will be several officers unleashing a flurry of bullets until the attacker drops. 
 
The P90 firing SS190 in full auto will deliver 15 bullets on target in 1 second. That would be like 7 or 8 officers firing 2 shots of 9mm/45ACP (400 ft-lbs) all at the same time, at the same target, within one second. Or wait a minute, did Gary just accidentally conclude that all major pistol calibers (9mm, .40, .45) used by police and military today are ineffective at bringing down threats? I read about it happening every day in my local newspaper. Perhaps they are using super duper police bullets...  
 
The following is a quote from a participant using the Five-seveN pistol who came to the aforementioned ballistics test convinced that the 5.7mm platform was not a viable choice against human threats: "What was really telling (as to the effectiveness of the 5.7mm round) is when I dumped 6 rds in about 2 seconds and ragged a block (calibrated gelatin per FBI protocol) - basically, it was mush." So that's 3 rounds a second. What if we multiply that number by a factor of 5, add in the increased ft-lbs of energy gained by going from a 4.75 inch barrel (Five-seveN), to a 10.5 inch barrel (P90)? How would the block look now? That would be the effect of the P90; a completely decimated human torso. But I heard from a guy whose friend said that people shot by the P90 have to be told they are getting shot???!!!!!!!!! ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!  
 
I just love the internet. Some of these concocted 5.7 stories are almost believable.. especially if you want to believe them. 
 
 
Here is the full thread on the comprehensive, unbiased testing of the 5.7mm platform: 
 
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=78715&start=504

 

 

 

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SpeedKills, should I add panzermk2 to your internet alias list? I would have much prefered if you just divulged who you are, then the sales pitch would make a lot more sense and it would actually be much easier to digest your sermon! Send me some samples and I will objectively test them.

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I am not in special ops. Or have I ever been in a gun fight. I just enjoy shooting guns. Here is a pic of my brothers PS90 SBR. He lives in America. When ever I visit and we go shooting I absolutely love firing this gun, Has zero recoil and shoots like a laser. So accurate. Just an all around good time. Here is a pic of me with it. Very fun. I am wearing black sun glasses because I thought tactical shades were required for the gun to function. It was not the case though. 

 

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SpeedKills, should I add panzermk2 to your internet alias list? I would have much prefered if you just divulged who you are, then the sales pitch would make a lot more sense and it would actually be much easier to digest your sermon! Send me some samples and I will objectively test them.

 

I'm not panzermk2 (aka Elite Ammunition) I have no affiliation with any ammo manufacturers or gun dealers. I'm just a guy that enjoys sharing info on the platform and sometimes debating about it. I really don't do this anymore. You guys are "lucky" I stopped by... j/k. Because of the ammo crunch, Jay (Elite Ammunition) has only been able to offer very limited production of 5.7 ammo. I doubt he has any interest in sending samples out. He did send some samples to the dentist in 2011. The dentist promised online that he would test them sometime in 2012. He never did. Or perhaps he did but didn't want to publish the results as it would have made all his rants look foolish. I don't know..

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I am not in special ops. Or have I ever been in a gun fight. I just enjoy shooting guns. Here is a pic of my brothers PS90 SBR. He lives in America. When ever I visit and we go shooting I absolutely love firing this gun, Has zero recoil and shoots like a laser. So accurate. Just an all around good time. Here is a pic of me with it. Very fun. I am wearing black sun glasses because I thought tactical shades were required for the gun to function. It was not the case though. 

 

 

 

Thanks for bringing some much needed humor to the thread. It's a good thing you are wearing eye protection because I've heard that the P90 is so weak, you risk eye injury as the bullets have been known to bounce off paper targets. Regular sunglasses are more than sufficient eye protection for anything 5.7x28. :)

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