First Build (HD AR)

[voyager9 3,441]

I bought my first AR about 9 months ago (Used M&P ORC) and so far I really like it.  I'm in need of a project so I'd like to do an AR build centered around HD but also for general range fun.

 

I'm still in the process of researching parts.  In general I want to build the lower and add a complete upper assembly since I don't have the tools (or experience) for barrel/gas block work.   I figured doing it this way is a good middle ground between buying stock and a full build.

Warning:  N00b questions and drivel below:

I've got a pretty tight budget:  Figure < $1k..  including sites/optics.  Is that unreasonable? 

For lower I'm leaning toward something like: 

    Spikes Forged lower ($95),

    PSA MOE ACT LPK ($90),

    Spikes Buffer Kit ($70) and

    Magpul CTR ($80)

    Total: $335.

 

The upper is where I get jammed between the upper ceiling of my budget.   Since its HD I'm thinking 14.5" barrel (+ Break) and carbine length gas system.  Would want some sort of RDS.

My options so far:

    Stag Arms 2HT ($699)

    BCM Standard 14.5" LW w/BCG/Comp ($762) -- No Hand guard.

 

That brings it pretty close/above to my ceiling and doesn't include optic.  I'd love an Aimpoint pro but that's another $400.  I could always stick with irons and add the optic later.. same goes with a light (since it's HD).

 

Any comments/faults/concerns with the list above?  Anything I should consider?  The other option would be to wait until PSA has some of their sales and try to grab either an upper or rifle kit.. but they come up a lot, they seem hard to jump on and I keep hearing mixed things about PSA's service.

 

Also, the BCM upper above is 1:7 twist.. my S&W is 1:9 and I usually shoot 55g with it.  From what I read that weight is less than ideal for 1:7.  Ideally I'd like to use the same for both.. would going to 62g be noticeable or would it be a 'master of none' type of situation?

 

Any help would be appreciated.. I'm looking forward to a build but want to collect as much upfront info as I can before my CC starts crying.

Thanks!

 

[High Exposure 5,675]

55g will be fine in a 1:7. I shoot everything from 44gr varmint rounds to 64gr TRU soft points with no changes at HD distances (25 yards and in) in my 2 BCM uppers.

 

If BCM is an option, then BCM is the answer - especially when compared to Stag.

 

If using the rifle for HD, the addition of a white light is a higher priority than an optic. The ability to ID threat in your home before engaging is paramount.

 

I would also say a sling is more important than a RDS as well (but less than a white light). It will enable your to use your hands and still maintian some control over the rifle.

[voyager9 3,441]

If BCM is an option, then BCM is the answer - especially when compared to Stag.

 

 

Can you explain this a little more?  Reading over the description for the two its hard to decipher the buzzwords.. where do the two uppers sit in the spectrum of AR's?  Are they really so far apart?

[High Exposure 5,675]

BCM makes a high quality rifle that meets or exceeds the TDP. You can expect the service life of their parts to exceed the maximums set forth by the mil-spec.

 

I have yet to see a Stag rifle finish a 3 day carbine course. The Stag is a 5000 round gun in my experience. Broken bolts, gas issues, busted charging handles, wrong height front sights (not "F" marked), etc... Are just a few of the issues I have witnessed. Their lowers and LPKs are decent, the problems I have seen seem to be surrounding their upper receiver assemblies.

[T Bill 649]

BCM is a top tier industry provider.  Stag is somewhat less.  Are they so far apart?  I would say there is a definite difference between them.  Your budget and use should be the determining factors.  HE is suggesting a flashlight (white light) before getting an optic of some sort whether a low power scope or a red dot sight (RDS).  A sling is a priority on a Home Defense AR, I agree.  This means you need to decide how you are anchoring it to the firearm. single point or two point.

 

PSA is a very good alternative to BCM or Spikes for budget reasons.  Barrels are produced by FN across town from them.  While BCM is up there on everybody's list, finances rule the day.  PSA does have good combo deals on Magpul and such, you just have to be diligent and wait it out.

 

Can you do it for a grand. In a word, yes.  It will take compromises, but it can be done.  They are other companies out there producing very good products that may fit your need.  However, if branding is a top issue to you then your course is already charted.

 

Take your time, no rush.  Look at ARs others have built or purchased.  Ask questions.  The true firearm community is very friendly and we are part of it.

[Barms 98]

400 on optic and leaving 600 for the rifle? What's the more important parts?

 

I too am envisioning my sub 900 build but I can't see myself spending 400 on the optic while looking for discounts on the parts. Not that any of the parts you listed were sub-quality.

[vladtepes 1,060]

spikes or bcm upper.... 14in + brake...

magpul moe stock to save a few bucks..

magpul moe handguard light and simple..

 

I recently switched to Inforce weapon light... love it especially for the money... 

 

a light is more important because at the distance inside a home you should be able to hit your target with irons... 

 

I can hit center mass with no irons and just using the tube of the red dot as reference with the dot switched off...

point and shoot at interior distances becomes very easy and natural with range time.. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

primary arms optics are a cheap alternative to Aimpoint..  but I would personally just build the gun with irons and get an optic later when money permits.. 

[5th4x4 0]

I recently switched to Inforce weapon light... love it especially for the money... 

 

Is it this one Vlad (which is currently on sale)?

 

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Inforce-WML-HSP-Black-p/inf-wml-bwmh.htm

[5th4x4 0]

Actually I just tracked down where I had seen you post a picture of your rifle with that light. 

Yes, it's that one.

Nevermind : )

[vladtepes 1,060]

Is it this one Vlad (which is currently on sale)?

 

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Inforce-WML-HSP-Black-p/inf-wml-bwmh.htm

 

 

negative.. that one IS brighter.. but it is momentary on only... which was a deal breaker for me.. the one I purchased has multiple features.. high.. low.. strobe... on.. or momentary on... it is bright enough for anything in the home and then some... it is VERY easy to operate... 

 

I like it so much I purchased THREE...

[disclaimer] the link is to a company owned by someone I am friendly with... they have ALWAYS been awesome to me.. and provided insanely high levels of customer support... so I am bias to them! good honest guy...[/disclaimer}

 

http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/inforce-wml-white-light-multifunction-field-programmable/

[5th4x4 0]

negative.. that one IS brighter.. but it is momentary on only... which was a deal breaker for me.. the one I purchased has multiple features.. high.. low.. strobe... on.. or momentary on... it is bright enough for anything in the home and then some... it is VERY easy to operate... 

 

I like it so much I purchased THREE...

[disclaimer] the link is to a company owned by someone I am friendly with... they have ALWAYS been awesome to me.. and provided insanely high levels of customer support... so I am bias to them! good honest guy...[/disclaimer}

 

http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/inforce-wml-white-light-multifunction-field-programmable/

 

Personal bias aside, I appreciate the link. I respect your opinion on this kind of stuff, since you buy and try and tinker and test a lot of stuff. 

I have one sitting in the cart right now.... as I check to see what else to buy. Good grief.... these rifles will wear out a credit card in a hurry. 

[5th4x4 0]

I would also say a sling is more important than a RDS as well (but less than a white light). It will enable your to use your hands and still maintian some control over the rifle.

 

 

A sling is a priority on a Home Defense AR, I agree.  This means you need to decide how you are anchoring it to the firearm. single point or two point.

 

Ok, so two of you mention the sling in regard to HD.

What are the considerations in that context? Pros/cons?

 

A sling was actually going to be my next purchase, so I'm glad that it was mentioned here before I went and purchased something that might not actually fit the need.

[checko 180]

Two point!!  Single point will be hard to control at best especially with the stress of a HD situation.

 

Pros - weapon retention, ability to use both hands if needed, (2pt) very secure against the body when slung

Cons - possibly get caught on something, may be tough to get off you in a hurry, (1pt) dangling over your feet when not held, has a tendency to hit you right in the mommy and daddy button

 

Look for VTAC or BFG Vickers 2 point adjustable slings. 

[medic2264 11]

http://www.blueforcegear.com/vickers-padded-sling/

 

I have been running this sling for the last few years.  Very comfortable, and well made.  I am a big fan of the two point sling.

 

Stay far far far away from 3 point slings.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Personal bias aside, I appreciate the link. I respect your opinion on this kind of stuff, since you buy and try and tinker and test a lot of stuff. 

I have one sitting in the cart right now.... as I check to see what else to buy. Good grief.... these rifles will wear out a credit card in a hurry. 

 

I do not believe you will be disappointed...

I have been through a bunch of lights.... I tried numerous pressure pads.. and remote switches... and nothing came close to this.. I literally love this.. but you are gonna hate me.. 

the following part makes those lights even better..

 

I purchased two of these as well..

you can most definitely get by without this... but it really puts the light in a nice spot..

http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/thorntail-1913-offset-adaptive-light-mount/

 

 

 

Ok, so two of you mention the sling in regard to HD.

What are the considerations in that context? Pros/cons?

 

A sling was actually going to be my next purchase, so I'm glad that it was mentioned here before I went and purchased something that might not actually fit the need.

 

I agree a sling is really useful on the off chance you need to use your hands..

any good quality two point sling is good to go..

 

I run a magpul.. but there are definitely other good 2 point options... 

[5th4x4 0]

I do not believe you will be disappointed...

I have been through a bunch of lights.... I tried numerous pressure pads.. and remote switches... and nothing came close to this.. I literally love this.. but you are gonna hate me.. 

the following part makes those lights even better..

 

I purchased two of these as well..

you can most definitely get by without this... but it really puts the light in a nice spot..

http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/thorntail-1913-offset-adaptive-light-mount/

 

Yeah, I'm gonna hate you a little bit (nah, not really). I had already seen the offset placement on your rifle, so that last bit wasn't entirely unexpected.

And it appears that light is best suited to run tight to the handguard/front sight, so it looks like the offset mount makes it pretty easy to handle from that position. I like both (in concept, at least) so I think I'll try it out and see how it goes.

 

Anyway, I don't want to hijack the OP's thread (I've got my own neglected thread for that purpose), so thanks for the heads up!

 

(as for the sling stuff.... I will hijack this thread just a little bit more... but I'll wait until tomorrow before I do that)  : P 

[alowerlevel 77]

Definitely get a good 2pt like one of the previously mentioned VCAS, VTAC, or Magpul slings.  Single points are really only good for letting your rifle hit you in the junk at the worst times.

[pbkid6974 1]

in my limited experience with ARs, you get what you pay for. if you want a reliable, well machined, well built parts you will need to pay for them. think of the build as a marathon. it may take you longer to finish but it will be soooo much more satisfying in the end. i was in your exact shoes when i started my build in december, i wanted in now and couldnt wait to start putting rounds down range but i was patient and waited for my wallet to fill up and bought quality parts. i couldnt be happier with my decision

[voyager9 3,441]

400 on optic and leaving 600 for the rifle? What's the more important parts?

 

I too am envisioning my sub 900 build but I can't see myself spending 400 on the optic while looking for discounts on the parts. Not that any of the parts you listed were sub-quality.

Yeah, that's a good point.. And one I was already starting to realize. Doesn't make sense unless you can grab one of those PSA daily deals.

 

So, delay the optic. Add a light. Parts for a 2-point sling are ordered for my M&P. Just waiting for the IWC QD. Depending how I like that then I'll go the same route.

 

Upper wise: shelf the Stag, keep an eye open for PSA, Spikes or keep with BCM if costs allow.

[voyager9 3,441]

.

 

Take your time, no rush. Look at ARs others have built or purchased. Ask questions. The true firearm community is very friendly and we are part of it.

I'd love to get a chance to see other builds besides the picture thread.. Never seem to get the opportunity the few times I'm able to get to the range.

[High Exposure 5,675]

Is it this one Vlad (which is currently on sale)?

 

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Inforce-WML-HSP-Black-p/inf-wml-bwmh.htm

This is one of the things that Vlad and I disagree on. I have one of those lights (125 lumen model) as well. I took it off my rifle and put it on a breaching shotgun. It just didn't work for me. Not enough usable light.

 

For $10 more dollars, you can get this: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SureFire-P2X-Fury-Tactical-Single-Output-LED-p/sf-p2x-a-bk-eag-click.htm

 

And bump your lumen output to 600 from 200 and have a clicky switch. (I believe that permanent/clicky switches are mandatory. Momentary switches are lacking especially in post engagement and administrative tasks where you need your support hand to do something other than turn the light on (use the phone, open a door, carry a child, reload, render aid, etc...) but you still need light.

 

I have never wished for less light while looking for bad guys, but I have wished for more light plenty of times. 200 lumens is my lowest threshold for white lights on long guns with more always being better.

 

It's is also not just the lumens, but also how the beam is shaped. The insight light throws a narrow beam without much "spill". The Fury has a bright center with a lot of "spill" the spill helps immensely with maintaining situational awareness and seeing into to spaces that the other lights will leave dark.

 

As far as the sling, think of the sling as the holster for your carbine. It lets you complete tasks that require two hands while maintaining control of the carbine. To me it is essential equipment or any long gun designated for "social" purposes. As others have said, a quick adjust 2 point sling rules the roost here. Single point slings, while better than a 3 point sling, are lacking in many areas, but still better than nothing.

[T Bill 649]

Sitting at my work table right now working on a new upper. PSA blem stripped upper (haven't found the blem yet), 7071-t6 milled charging handle, mil bolt I had, and a Samson Evolution rail.  Haven't decided on a barrel yet, debating calibers, but pre-fitting the rest.  Your a long haul from here, sorry to say.  Here for you when you need it.

 

As you said pictures don't always tell the story.  If you think of it, poke around at ar15.com, or m4caarbine.net for a little more background, worth a shot.

[voyager9 3,441]

This is one of the things that Vlad and I disagree on. I have one of those lights (125 lumen model) as well. I took it off my rifle and put it on a breaching shotgun. It just didn't work for me. Not enough usable light.

 

For $10 more dollars, you can get this: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SureFire-P2X-Fury-Tactical-Single-Output-LED-p/sf-p2x-a-bk-eag-click.htm

 

And bump your lumen output to 600 from 200 and have a clicky switch. (I believe that permanent/clicky switches are mandatory. Momentary switches are lacking especially in post engagement and administrative tasks where you need your support hand to do something other than turn the light on (use the phone, open a door, carry a child, reload, render aid, etc...) but you still need light..

Wtf is a tactical clicky switch? Sounds like a skateboard move.

[High Exposure 5,675]

A switch that clicks on and clicks off instead of a momentary pressure switch that you have to keep your finger on to keep the light lit.

 

You can use it as a momentary light by pushing the switch gently and not engaging the click, or you can push the switch all the way in to turn it on and leave it on by clicking.

[voyager9 3,441]

A switch that clicks on and clicks off instead of a momentary pressure switch that you have to keep your finger on to keep the light lit.

 

You can use it as a momentary light by pushing the switch gently and not engaging the click, or you can push the switch all the way in to turn it on and leave it on by clicking.

Gotcha thanks. A fancy way to say "toggle" . Though having a pseudo momentary may be a nice feature.

[vladtepes 1,060]

This is one of the things that Vlad and I disagree on. I have one of those lights (125 lumen model) as well. I took it off my rifle and put it on a breaching shotgun. It just didn't work for me. Not enough usable light.

For $10 more dollars, you can get this: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SureFire-P2X-Fury-Tactical-Single-Output-LED-p/sf-p2x-a-bk-eag-click.htm

And bump your lumen output to 600 from 200 and have a clicky switch. (I believe that permanent/clicky switches are mandatory. Momentary switches are lacking especially in post engagement and administrative tasks where you need your support hand to do something other than turn the light on (use the phone, open a door, carry a child, reload, render aid, etc...) but you still need light.

I have never wished for less light while looking for bad guys, but I have wished for more light plenty of times. 200 lumens is my lowest threshold for white lights on long guns with more always being better.

It's is also not just the lumens, but also how the beam is shaped. The insight light throws a narrow beam without much "spill". The Fury has a bright center with a lot of "spill" the spill helps immensely with maintaining situational awareness and seeing into to spaces that the other lights will leave dark.

As far as the sling, think of the sling as the holster for your carbine. It lets you complete tasks that require two hands while maintaining control of the carbine. To me it is essential equipment or any long gun designated for "social" purposes. As others have said, a quick adjust 2 point sling rules the roost here. Single point slings, while better than a 3 point sling, are lacking in many areas, but still better than nothing.

With all due respect I want a light that can light up what I need to see but not one that will serve as a beacon to the world....

 

If I ever need a light it will likely be in one of two situations.... One in my home... It is plenty bright enough for me.... The second instance is if there was ever an issue... Similar to let's say Katrina... Being on my property outside seeing short distances... If I light a light outside I am not interested in letting everyone in a 10 block radius know I'm doing something....

 

You are Leo operating in official capacity.... It doesn't matter if you run a 9million lumens light....

 

So imo.... We are operating in two different capacity...

[High Exposure 5,675]

With all due respect I want a light that can light up what I need to see but not one that will serve as a beacon to the world....

If I ever need a light it will likely be in one of two situations.... One in my home... It is plenty bright enough for me.... The second instance is if there was ever an issue... Similar to let's say Katrina... Being on my property outside seeing short distances... If I light a light outside I am not interested in letting everyone in a 10 block radius know I'm doing something....

You are Leo operating in official capacity.... It doesn't matter if you run a 9million lumens light....

So imo.... We are operating in two different capacity...

I hear ya Vlad and I understand where you are coming from. I just disagree.

 

A candle or 600 lumens - light is light and will be seen in the dark. If someone can see my 125 lumen light from 100 yards away, but I can't see them because my light wont reach that far, what good is that? Now you are a target that cant fight back. I would rather have a 600 lumen light so I can see him right back. Sure, someone will see my 600 light from further away, but I am not immediately worried about the guy 1000 yards away. Its the guy inside 100 yards that can see my light but I can't see him that is the immediate threat.

 

What do you do in the day time to avoid being seen? There is no cloak of invisibility when the sun is up. You will be a "beacon" then too.

 

Anyway I prefer to have enough light to power through the darkness and provide for friend-foe ID out to 100 yards in normal dark conditions (no fog, smoke etc...) and will light up dark spaces with light reflected from surrounding structures and make a "wall" that is hard for an adversary to see past. This is how I was taught by some pretty sharp guys and so far it works for me.

 

But, this is off topic from the OPs questions.

[ChrisJM981 924]

I have a Surefire flashlight I use for work. Runs on 123A batteries that you can snag a deal on a box of dozen from time to time. The batteries have a 10 year shelf life, and every time I need to use it, the things lights up. As soon as funds allow I'm getting a mount, Surefire, and toggle switch for my rifle.

[Artyguy 0]

Have you checked out palmetto state armory? They are having some really good sales on 16 inch and up uppers. They have some nice 14.7 inch uppers ranging from $300-$460 but those aren't in stock at the moment. They have http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/14231/s/psa-16-m4-premium-moe-black-rifle-kit/'> http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/14231/s/psa-16-m4-premium-moe-black-rifle-kit/ which might keep you below your $1k mark.