Using Heavier Bullets: Did you notice a difference?

[zoid 24]

I have tried 250gr 45acp bullets thinking that I could use less powder and thus make a very soft load.

But what I felt/perceived was that due to the bullet taking up so much of the casing the pressure of the

round felt higher.  This was at the recommended or just below the start load. 

 

With 200gr bullets loaded really light I can get them to feel lighter than 9mm.  Made me think if using

a heavier bullet will always equate to a softer shooting round.  

 

What have your experiences been?

[Arbelest 29]

Let me start this with saying I don't reload BUT I have made some similar observations when I got my Beretta Cx4.  As with all new guns I was trying to find which type would work best so I grabbed 115gr 124gr and 147 gr 9mm ammo.  The 115 and 124 had a noticeably different more recoil then the 147gr.  The 147gr also was more accurate, I'm assuming since it was a heavier load it kept the trajectory straighter as well.

[zoid 24]

The weight and accuracy would all depend on the barrel length, gun, powder, etc I'm sure.  You're shooting a carbine so it may be a little different.  You ever try it with pistol?  What brand?

I always thought for factory the heavier stuff kicked a litter more.  But I haven't really shot heavy factory ammo.

[Arbelest 29]

Not 21 yet so no pistols for me :/ I was using American Eagle ammo for all grain counts.  A lot of people I talked to say they don't have a need for anything over 124gr in a handgun.

[zoid 24]

Not 21 yet so no pistols for me :/ I was using American Eagle ammo for all grain counts.  A lot of people I talked to say they don't have a need for anything over 124gr in a handgun.

 

Yeah I could see that.  Heavier bullet travels quite a bit slower.  So it can be a bit of a wash in the end.  But I guess it all depends on the distance too.

[tony357 386]

The heavier bullet will raise the cup pressure at lower velocity loads, the 200 gr bullet is going to shoot softer. 

[Respect2A 0]

I like 230s in .45 and 124's for 9mm.

 

I've always read that 9mm was designed with the 124gr bullet in mind. I have never clarified that though

[Shocker 151]

Heavier bullet with a faster powder will feel softer usually. I can load 200gr SWC with N320 but with 230gr RN I switched to Clays.

 

If you get a heavier bullet with the same slow powder that you were using before I dont' know that the difference will be as noticable. Plus if you need to make power factor with a slow powder you're going to get high chamber pressures with that heavier bullet.

[2Alpha 6]

How soft a gun will recoil is kinda meaningless.  Its how fast the sights return to point of aim.  No sense make powder puff loads if the gun is sluggish

[zoid 24]

How soft a gun will recoil is kinda meaningless. Its how fast the sights return to point of aim. No sense make powder puff loads if the gun is sluggish

So having too light of a load would potentially make the gun shoot slower? I always thought

The point if a soft shooting round is so the recoil

Is more manageable and minimizing muzzle

Rise thus getting on target faster.

[2Alpha 6]

If the front sight is slow to return, whats the point of a light load?

 

That is the point of fast powder with a heavier bullet.  When you have a sharp fast recoil impluse, the front sight snaps up and right back down.  With a slower powder, the recoil impluse is lighter but longer in time.  Front sight come back slower

 

This is why you see slide lightening and lighter recoil springs in USPSA gun

[Respect2A 0]

So having too light of a load would potentially make the gun shoot slower? I always thought

The point if a soft shooting round is so the recoil

Is more manageable and minimizing muzzle

Rise thus getting on target faster.

The quicker the recoil impulse finishes the quicker you can be back on target. A soft load is generally a slower burning powder so you end up with a longer recoil impulse. Longer recoil impulse equals longer to get back on target.

[Respect2A 0]

If the front sight is slow to return, whats the point of a light load?

 

 

Not everyone thinks in terms of competition shooting. Some shooters are older or injured and might require or enjoy a light load for their guns. Not everyone shoots on the clock.

[2Alpha 6]

That's why they make .22s

[Respect2A 0]

It's also why they have developed light loads.

[raz-0 1,259]

Wow. the amount of wrongness in this thread is staggering. 

 

Force = Mass x (Velocity squared)

 

It's that simple. The pressure of the cartridge doesn't matter. The amount of stuff coming out the front of the gun will impart a pretty consistent amount of energy to the gun regardless of how you divide up the mass between powder, projectile, and the velocity thereof. Beyond that, you are into the psychology of perceiving recoil, and that is a lot like questions of ergonomics int hat it is largely a matter of taste. 

 

Objectively, if you want the least amount of energy, you load light loads with light bullets going as slow as you can manage, and do so with a fast burning powder with the least mass. And when I say fast burning, I mean sufficient that combustion is complete by the time the bullet leaves the barrel to minimize jetting. You do this with the heaviest gun you can tolerate for the smallest amount of mass coming out the front you can tolerate, and your gun is not a fixed barrel blow-back design, but some delayed unlocking design. Beyond that you are managing perception. Heck even within the above you are managing perception. 

 

2 Alpha is also wrong about sight picture. Just go ask steel challenge shooters. If you want to go really light, you just respiring your gun for the load, or shoot a revolver. 

 

Heavier bullets move slower, and to reach a given agreed upon amount of energy at muzzle, you need less powder. Since velocity is squared a slower bullet is a good thing, but more importantly, less gases and other powder remains shooting out the barrel at 5000fps is a good thing, and bigger bullets require less powder. But that is only if you are trying to meet a specific amount of energy out the front for competition or terminal performance in self defense or hunting. Freed from those constraints, 2gr of powder X behing a 100gr bullet will be softer than 2gr of powder X behind a 200gr bullet because there is less stuff coming out the end of the gun. 

 

Then you get into where physics meets psychology:

 

The first is sound - Most people perceive a louder muzzle report as implying more recoil. You can take two rounds that produce the exact same muzzle energy, but if one of them is a lot louder, or produces a pressure wave you can feel, you will get more people telling you that gun recoils more. This is another reason why many people prefer heavier bullets. For a given amount of muzzle energy, heavier bullets remain subsonic, and are quieter. However, remove that restriction, and a subsonic bullet of less mass will still induce less recoil than a subsonic bullet of greater mass.  Then there are comps. In terms of gun movement and stresses on teh shooter, a properly designed comp is ALWAYS a recoil win. However, they make the gun seem VERY, VERY loud. Some people will perceive this as more recoil, some people won't until it induces a flinch and despite less recoil will perceive the whole package as less controllable. 

 

The second is torque - heavier bullets torque the gun more because the heavier bullet has more inertia. How much you perceive the torque comes down to you and the mass of the gun. The end result though is that for people who DO perceive the torque, you notice you are actually controlling the gun's movement in more directions, and since you are consciously controlling more inputs, you perceive that as more recoil. 

 

The third is impulse duration - Your brain processes reality very very oddly when compared to the reality of physics. In general, the shorter the recoil impulse, the more people will perceive  the reduced duration as feeling like less recoil regardless of the math. This is NOT 100% of people, and even for people it works on, there is usually a threshold. Myself, I like the feel off titiegroup, right up until there is a point of inflection on the benefit curve and it goes form imnproving to becoming rapidly worse. Somewhere between 4.5 and 4.7gr of titegroup under a 180gr bullet in .40 is that point of inflection for me where the recoil gets that jolt like I'm actually whacking something with a hammer rather than shooting a gun (unless I shoot it in a nice heavy gun). It's distracting and fatiguing, so if I need to go above 4.5gr to make major in.40 with a 180 out of a gun I either don't shoot that gun or I switch powders to something slower. Then you run into frame material. Polymer guns flex, which spreads the energy distribution to your body over a longer time. You will find that if you mix a fast powder with a polymer gun that flexes, most people will find it feels softer. It is also converting some of that energy to heat and sound, but it's relatively small in the math of it.  I debated putting this under the next section cause it can fit here or there...

 

Fourth is springs. - Other than the small bit of heat and sound they generate, they don't really reduce recoil energy, they at most mess with the distribution of the recoil energy over time and weather you pay the piper more at the beginning or end.  Your bullet produced X enery, and imparted Y amount of that into the slide of your gun. You put a light spring into the gun, it slams back harder, but slams forward lighter. Put a heavy spring into it, the backwards motion will be damped more, but it will go back into battery hard and may cause your muzzle to dip. A good chunk of people regard removing that slam as the slide hits full reward to make recoil feel reduced. A good chunk of people also feel that recoil feels minimized when you balance it so you split the slamming motion pretty reasonably between the slide fully reward and slamming back into battery. Mainspring weight comes into it as well on hammer fired guns. 

 

IT gets complicated. 

[2Alpha 6]

Steel shooters aren't concerned with follow up shots. They are moving the gun between each shot.

but even so, they aren't running super light loads with heavy bullets.  No one is running 250gr 45 or 160gr 9mm because the guns feel sluggish with these loads and if you try to run super light springs then you can feel the gun bump feed

[GRIZ 3,369]

Steel shooters aren't concerned with follow up shots. They are moving the gun between each shot.

but even so, they aren't running super light loads with heavy bullets.  No one is running 250gr 45 or 160gr 9mm because the guns feel sluggish with these loads and if you try to run super light springs then you can feel the gun bump feed

Aren't steel shooters timed? No matter what you are shooting you need to recover from recoil before you fire again.

 

The sole function of a recoil spring in a locked breech semiauto to to push the slide forward and reload the chamber. Many people fool themselves into swapping springs for some perceived advantage. The only thing they accomplish is beating up their gun.

 

Raz-o pretty much covered it in his post. The only thing I have to add is heavy bullets produce more recoil everything else being equal. Most people are affected by muzzle blast more than recoil.

[2Alpha 6]

Aren't steel shooters timed? No matter what you are shooting you need to recover from recoil before you fire again.

 

The sole function of a recoil spring in a locked breech semiauto to to push the slide forward and reload the chamber. Many people fool themselves into swapping springs for some perceived advantage. The only thing they accomplish is beating up their gun.

 

Raz-o pretty much covered it in his post. The only thing I have to add is heavy bullets produce more recoil everything else being equal. Most people are affected by muzzle blast more than recoil.

 

 

have you been to a steel match?

 

And you are wrong about changing spring.  a reasonably lighter springs won't beat up a gun.  And it can make the sight return to POA better. 

[GRIZ 3,369]

have you been to a steel match?

 

And you are wrong about changing spring.  a reasonably lighter springs won't beat up a gun.  And it can make the sight return to POA better.

 

have you been to a steel match?

 

And you are wrong about changing spring.  a reasonably lighter springs won't beat up a gun.  And it can make the sight return to POA better.

 

Answering my question with a question doesn't do much to stimulate the conversation.

 

A reasonably lighter spring not besting up a gun is very dependent on what you call reasonable. The sights returning to POA have more to do with the fitting of the slide, barrel, frame and other parts. Please explain to me how you achieve this with a lighter spring.

 

It doesn't cease to amaze me how many people think they know how to engineer a gun better than John Browning.

[2Alpha 6]

Answering my question with a question doesn't do much to stimulate the conversation.

 

A reasonably lighter spring not besting up a gun is very dependent on what you call reasonable. The sights returning to POA have more to do with the fitting of the slide, barrel, frame and other parts. Please explain to me how you achieve this with a lighter spring.

 

It doesn't cease to amaze me how many people think they know how to engineer a gun better than John Browning.

 

12-14lbs spring in a 45. 10-12lb in a 40, 7-9lbs in a 9mm are reasonable spring weights that will not beat up your gun

 

why would the fit of the slide, barrel, frame have anything to do with the sights returning to poa?  If the recoil spring is to heavy the front sight dips, if it is to light, it hangs high.  Same with the weight of the slide.  

 

Do you still drive a model T?

 

I'm guessing you have not been to a steel match... how about USPSA?

[raz-0 1,259]

Steel shooters aren't concerned with follow up shots. They are moving the gun between each shot.

but even so, they aren't running super light loads with heavy bullets. No one is running 250gr 45 or 160gr 9mm because the guns feel sluggish with these loads and if you try to run super light springs then you can feel the gun bump feed

No they are running super light loads with super light bullets. And transitions are often as fast as splits for the really fast guys, eve in uspsa.

 

They swiss cheese the guns and run light bullets, charges, and springs. And they don't chug.

 

You also failed to comprehend what I wrote almost entirely.

[raz-0 1,259]

Answering my question with a question doesn't do much to stimulate the conversation.

 

A reasonably lighter spring not besting up a gun is very dependent on what you call reasonable. The sights returning to POA have more to do with the fitting of the slide, barrel, frame and other parts. Please explain to me how you achieve this with a lighter spring.

 

It doesn't cease to amaze me how many people think they know how to engineer a gun better than John Browning.

A lighter spring helps a faster return to sight picture because a good grip supinates the forearms, which moves your musculature out of a neutral position and makes it act like a spring resisting muzzle rise. For a lot of people a good grip is not necessarily resistant to muzzle dip. A light spring slams the slide into battery with less force, thus decreasing the propensity for the muzzle to dip. The springy supination part is bio mechanical, and not really a conscious act. That makes it essentially instantaneous. Recovering from muzzle dip is conscious execution of fine motor skills and thus takes some time. Choosing a spring rate that returns the muzzle to a natural point of aim is faster even if the muzzle wants to rise more.

 

There's a misconception that lighter springs cycle faster. They don't. They just make the reward motion the faster part of the cycling motion. The other one is that there's a universal optimal spring weight. For 2011s people usually claim it is 14 or 13 recoil, 17 main. I tried it on mine with a light slide, and it left me with muzzle climb (I.e. it'd be back in battery before my grip had snapped back to a natural point of aim) 15/17 works well though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Howard 538]

I think momentum not energy is the issue that comes into play.  Momentum is mass times velocity, not velocity squared.

[seamusSU 0]

Force=mass x acceleration, acceleration is not velocity squared

[zoid 24]

I didn't intend a scientific approach to the matter. The reloads we make probably do have a huge perceptive quality to them whether they are founded in actual science, math, etc. I just wanted to see if anyone actually experienced softer shooting rounds (ie ones that are easier to shoot and shoot fast/accurate) as they used heavier bullet weights. From what I gather is the general consensus is no.

 

I'm actually leaning toward trying some ultra light bullets like 95gr 9mm and 180gr 45acp. My feeling is they will feel very light. May make for a great steel round.

[Shocker 151]

Force Energy = 0.5* Mass x (Velocity squared)

 

Alternatively

 

momentum = mass * velocity

 

and

 

force = d(momentum)/dt

[Howard 538]

Thanks for the correction, seemed to have a brain fart.  You are 100% in that acceleration is the rate of change of velocity.

[zoid 24]

I can appreciate the math but I highly doubt any reloaded has EVER used physics to calculate a load. OAL, grains, bullet weight, are what is used to determine anything and everything.

[Shocker 151]

Of course you're right. The math just shows that if you need to make power factor (a momentum measurement) you can change mass or velocity. If you change mass, the energy that you + your gun has to soak up varies linearly. If you change velocity, that energy change is squared.