What is consider "tight" group when reloading???

[locochinoloco 0]

So, I've just started reloading and trying to roll some for my wife's M&P9c.  We're using Extreme 124gr Cooper plates with mixed brass, Winchester primer and BullsEye powder.

 

From what I've gathered online, the primer doesn't make much different and neither does the brass.

 

I've tried the following with 5 round each, rested at 35' (feet).

 

1. 4 gr with 1.10" OAL - 6" group

2. 4 gr with 1.11" OAL - 6" group

3. 4 gr with 1.12" OAL - 6" group

4. 4.1 gr with 1.10" OAL- 6" group

5. 4.1 gr with 1.12" OAL - 4.25" group

6. 4.1 gr with 1.14" OAL- 6" group (Not sure why this isn't better?)

7. 4.2 gr with 1.12" OAL - 3" group

8. 4.2 gr with 1.14" OAL - 4" group

 

Herter factory - 115gr - 3.5" group 

 

So, after the results, I've read that I should always try to load the longest possible OAL without touching the rifling because there is less of a 'jump' from the case to the barrel.

 

Is that true?  I've also read that because there is less rifling I may need more pressure?

 

I understand the barrel Is only 3.6" long and the P229 and CZ 75 with longer barrels are giving me 1.75" to 2.25" groups at the same distance.

 

Any suggestions on how I can roll something that will produce "tighter" groups for the M&P9c?

 

Thanks in advance.

[henrym 19]

So, I've just started reloading and trying to roll some for my wife's M&P9c.  We're using Extreme 124gr Cooper plates with mixed brass, Winchester primer and BullsEye powder.

 

From what I've gathered online, the primer doesn't make much different and neither does the brass.

 

I've tried the following with 5 round each, rested at 35' (feet).

 

1. 4 gr with 1.10" OAL - 6" group

2. 4 gr with 1.11" OAL - 6" group

3. 4 gr with 1.12" OAL - 6" group

4. 4.1 gr with 1.10" OAL- 6" group

5. 4.1 gr with 1.12" OAL - 4.25" group

6. 4.1 gr with 1.14" OAL- 6" group (Not sure why this isn't better?)

7. 4.2 gr with 1.12" OAL - 3" group

8. 4.2 gr with 1.14" OAL - 4" group

 

Herter factory - 115gr - 3.5" group 

 

So, after the results, I've read that I should always try to load the longest possible OAL without touching the rifling because there is less of a 'jump' from the case to the barrel.

 

Is that true?  I've also read that because there is less rifling I may need more pressure?

 

I understand the barrel Is only 3.6" long and the P229 and CZ 75 with longer barrels are giving me 1.75" to 2.25" groups at the same distance.

 

Any suggestions on how I can roll something that will produce "tighter" groups for the M&P9c?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

You need more load development. 

 

The problem with loading that long for a pistol is that your rounds will more than likely not feed through the mag. You are also going to lower the chamber pressure as you load longer and longer, which can cause incomplete powder burn and/or a squib

 

Herters isn't particularly accurate ammo, and you should have no problem getting better results than that.

[T Bill 649]

I would use a slower burning powder.  9MM likes a slower burning powder for 124 and up heads.  Your powder maybe just a little to hot. 

[Shocker 151]

Just like every other aspect of reloading, your gun might like a certain OAL better than any other. "As long as possible" is not universal.

 

Bullseye is pretty quick though. Can you get heavier bullets?

[10X 3,306]

It's never going to be a bullseye gun...you might consider working up a load that is absolutely reliable in it, and calling it a day.  With iron sights and a 3.6" barrel, your groups are mostly reflecting your ability to shoot a short barreled gun with iron sights.   Changes in group size due to subtle differences in the load will be hard to spot.

 

Shooting groups from a rest requires practice just like unsupported shooting--the groups will tighten up over time, even without changing the load.   So, boring as it is, you need to shoot a lot of them.   Also, a single 5-shot group with each load won't tell you what is working best.    You'll need to average multiple groups (I'd not consider anything less than 5, 5 shot groups to be useful), shot in a random order so the affects of fatigue don't skew the results for the groups shot last.  That's also tedious, I know.

 

Your approach to varying OAL and charge weight sounds fine.  I'd probably make slightly larger changes (at least .2 gr, and .02") between lots to avoid having to test so many combinations.  As others have noted, a different powder or different bullet might make an even larger difference, but then you are left with testing still more combinations.  For serious target use, one would want to avoid mixed brass in favor of single-manufacturer brass, or better still, single-lot brass, but I'm not sure you could spot the difference in this case.

[tony357 386]

So, after the results, I've read that I should always try to load the longest possible OAL without touching the rifling because there is less of a 'jump' from the case to the barrel.

 

Is that true?

 

yes..  

 

A fast burning powder is better for the shorter barrels.  V310  or AA #2   would be good powders..

 

Shoot it from a rest and see if it is better. Also try some FMJ bullets..

[joshroz2 4]

I don't load in 9mm but for .308 I would always try to match a commercial cartridge and work the load from there. First I see what that bullet weights the gun likes in commercial match ammo then I copy the specs and work the load around until its really matched with the gun.

 

You could try to copy a match 9mm load that already does well in the M&P9C it will save you time and should tighten up the groups a lot. With handloaded ammo there in no reason to settle for less than match quality and it should certainly be better then herters.

 

I also say you can make bigger changes in between loads and should fire 10 instead of 5 or 2x 5 shots.

 

What kind of rest are you using? Make sure there is no human factor in the groups. You really need a vise type rest for pistols.

[locochinoloco 0]

Thanks for all the feed back, greatly appreciate it.

 

Guess, I will need more development with various OAL and powder weight.  I only have WST, Auto Comp and BullsEye for powder.  I bought whatever was in stock since supplies are scarce.  The only bullets I have are 115gr plated or 124 gr plated.

 

I've never really shot the M&P9c or any pistol from a resting position before with factory ammo except for comparision after I found out my reloads were all over the place.  I'm also not trying to get a "bullseye" load, dispite I'm using the BullsEye powder.  LOL...

 

That being said, having to buy factory ammo and try to see which produce tightest group doesn't really sound feasible to me.  The only factory I have left are Remington UMC 147gr FMJ and Winchester white box 115gr FMJ, will try them next time.  I think spending the money on a chrono would be a better investment?  Does consistent velocity translate into tighter groups?

 

The rest I'm using is my range bag... LOL ... so there is the human factor, which I totally understand.  However, the same loads out of a CZ 75 and P229 are producing groups that 1.75" to 2.25" using the same method.

 

Also, there are some conflicting statement made by different members.  Some say need slower powder, some say need faster burning???  some say OAL longer is better, some say not... LOL

 

Is there someone that can take a picture of their target shot with 9mm out of a 3.6" barrel using their "target" load?

 

I guess the question is what does everyone else accept as "tight" out of a 3.6" barrel at 35'?

 

I'll continue to work on the load with single brand brass, make changed at .2gr and .02 on OAL, but I don't really have other materials other than whats on hand so I'm just trying to make things work.  I will also shot 10 rds instead of 5 rds for measurement.  Can't really justify a Ransom rest, so the range bag will do.  Opinion on using a chrono?

 

As for rest, would this work? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007LOX8C/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A19XE0CFLN81HP

 

OR should the money be spend on: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0028MTBJ4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

 

OR just keep trying?? LOL

 

Thanks again for all the advice!

[Shocker 151]

I don't have a 9c but if I could get 3.5" at 35' out of my shield (~3" barrel) I'd be thrilled. They aren't accuracy guns.

[10X 3,306]

I personally wouldn't bother with a chronograph, unless you need to make a certain power factor for competition.  You'll know your approximate velocity from the published loading data, and that's generally good enough.  Consistent velocity does contribute to accuracy, but you can let the group size continue to be the measure of that.

 

I've no experience with the pistol rest you linked to.  Interested to hear from anyone who has used it.

 

I use this rest:   http://www.midwayusa.com/product/742540/mtm-pistol-shooting-rest     It's low tech, and fairly inexpensive, but nowhere near as good as a ransom rest, and probably not as good as the rest you linked to (unless that one has major flaws of some kind).

 

Since you already have two bullet weights and three powders, and can experiment with OAL, I think you have plenty of variables to work with.  Sure, other powder or bullets might do better still, but you'll go nuts trying to find them.   Find the best combo among what you have.  Later on, you can try to improve on it with different components.

[Respect2A 0]

I would use a slower burning powder. 9MM likes a slower burning powder for 124 and up heads. Your powder maybe just a little to hot.

Not true at all. Titegroup vv320 and win 231 are all fast powders and all very good for 9mm

[Respect2A 0]

I also disagree with 10x. Any reloader should have a chrono

[locochinoloco 0]

I don't have a 9c but if I could get 3.5" at 35' out of my shield (~3" barrel) I'd be thrilled. They aren't accuracy guns.

Yeah.... I figured... that's why I asked what would everyone consider "tight" from a 3.6" barrel. 

 

I also disagree with 10x. Any reloader should have a chrono

I kinda feel the same way, I've been looking but just haven't pull the trigger on one yet.  I assume you have one? and you're a member of CJRPC also?? *hint hint* ... LOL

 

I personally wouldn't bother with a chronograph, unless you need to make a certain power factor for competition.  You'll know your approximate velocity from the published loading data, and that's generally good enough.  Consistent velocity does contribute to accuracy, but you can let the group size continue to be the measure of that.

 

I've no experience with the pistol rest you linked to.  Interested to hear from anyone who has used it.

 

I use this rest:   http://www.midwayusa.com/product/742540/mtm-pistol-shooting-rest     It's low tech, and fairly inexpensive, but nowhere near as good as a ransom rest, and probably not as good as the rest you linked to (unless that one has major flaws of some kind).

 

Since you already have two bullet weights and three powders, and can experiment with OAL, I think you have plenty of variables to work with.  Sure, other powder or bullets might do better still, but you'll go nuts trying to find them.   Find the best combo among what you have.  Later on, you can try to improve on it with different components.

That's the problem, there are so many possible combinations... LOL ... for example... if I use .02" for OAL, I would have 4 for OAL.  Then the powder based on .2 grain will give me another 3+, right there I already have 12 combo.  Then I have to worry about different bullets which could be OMFG there are so many and the human factor... sounds like I'm fighting a lose battle trying to get a load that is acceptable.  Which brings me back to the question, what is consider "tight" for a 3.6" barrel.  At least it will give me something to strive for and know when to stop.  But I do appreciate the advice/opinion as I'm a newb so new information is always good.

[Shane45 807]

One comment I didnt see mentioned. When loading long, its not a bad idea to make sure you can still eject a live round.

[tony357 386]

At 10 ft I have shot 1 in groups with my EAA Witness compact using 115 gr  FMJ  Over 5.8 gr Of #5..  shooting free style.

 

This gun has rifled barrel not polygon..

[joshroz2 4]

If your not picky just shoot 10 rounds of the UMC or White box and call that a target grouping so if its 2" or 4" just consider that the standard you want your loads to get to. Even if you don't buy more ammo make some comparisons to the ammo you have. Also maybe just look up the specs for Short barrel defensive ammo and see if there is anything interesting in the data. If you can base your starting point around known results you can eliminate a lot of different combo's. Also I would say pick one weight and stick with it for now. For me each bullet weight is its own set of trials not combined. I would say 124 should be fine.

[locochinoloco 0]

One comment I didnt see mentioned. When loading long, its not a bad idea to make sure you can still eject a live round.

Good point... thanks for the tip!

 

If your not picky just shoot 10 rounds of the UMC or White box and call that a target grouping so if its 2" or 4" just consider that the standard you want your loads to get to. Even if you don't buy more ammo make some comparisons to the ammo you have. Also maybe just look up the specs for Short barrel defensive ammo and see if there is anything interesting in the data. If you can base your starting point around known results you can eliminate a lot of different combo's. Also I would say pick one weight and stick with it for now. For me each bullet weight is its own set of trials not combined. I would say 124 should be fine.

Yeah... talk about being picky, it's hard not to be picky when I've gone "full retard" and as Nick would put it (spending a lot of money) and rolling ammo that is subpar to factory.  LOL ... so I would like to beat the factory load.... but you do have a great point... shoot some factory that I have and just aim to beat them.

 

As of right now, only Shocker and Tony357 has answer the question.  What is acceptable "group" to you for a 3.6" barrel at 35'? 

[raz-0 1,259]

I personally wouldn't bother with a chronograph, unless you need to make a certain power factor for competition.  You'll know your approximate velocity from the published loading data, and that's generally good enough.  Consistent velocity does contribute to accuracy, but you can let the group size continue to be the measure of that.

 

 

 

I know this sounds way too involved, but the reality is for most guns and loads plated is not a PITA once you get the right crimp as long as you don't push it too fast, which is usally REALLY fast. 9mm major power factor ammo with plated is not something I would try with any reasonably priced plated ammo. I'd also avoid .357 sig and magnum loads. Most of the above I learned through dealing with polymer coated lead as well since the same rules apply.

 

That being said, I will also answer the OPs question about acceptable group

 

 

I tried making major PF using 165gr .40 plated bullets out of a fullsize M&P, so a 4.25" barrel IIRC? Anyway, offhand group size was about 10 inches at 30 yards. Pretty suck. Lighten up the crimp, shrinks to about 8"... still pretty suck. Cut back velocity to about 137pf, and group shrinks to about 6". at 7 yards they were all indistinguishable after backing off the crimp. I try a 180gr, and I get about 6" groups and tell myself I need to practice. I don';t like how either load really feels in that gun, so I stick to minor PF and forget about it until I switch to moly coat later. Then it all comes back, but at minor PF. The plated I was using were double struck, so pretty firm. The coated are SOFT so I start miking things. Go back and check and I'm undersizing everything .40 that isn't jakceted. Swap out the lee FCD (which I had used just fine for plated 230gr .45) for a dillon taper crimp. Make up some left over plated I still have on hand and the coated. Plated groups tighten up to about 5", and coated are about 8". WTF. So I start retrieving bullets. Turns out my M&P factory barrel had one sharp land that was cutting through the coating at any velocity, and cutting through the plated when I pushed them over about 1000fps as far as I could estimate. (180 major didn't do it, and 165 major did) The barrel went into the parts bin. Had I been a bit smarter, I would have taken the hint form having to clean harsh leading out of only one land/groove juncture.

 

 

So, problem fixed, I got about 6" groups out of jacketed at 30 yards, about 5" groups out of plated set up right, and about 4" out of coated. Basically, the more they deformed rapidly to seal the bore, and the more completely they did it, the better the group. This was with a full size and a storm lake match barrel though. 21'/7 yards they were essentially the same, and accuracy was limited by the amount of target left to aim at and the size of the front sight blade. I will add one more thing, which is that for me, shooting a polymer framed gun from a rest does not help me be more accurate at all, it in fact makes it worse. I'm assuming it is frame flex bothering me. At 35', I can tell you absolutely that a plated round should be able to hold greater than 2.5" accuracy from a rest because I have done that at farther from a rest with a gun with a metal frame. Off hand with a compact M&P at about 30' I have done about 3" groups off hand trying out someone else's new toy. But it wasn't a super serious effort for accuracy, was pretty much one mag and done, and IIRC it was blazer ammo.

 

 

From a practical standpoint, whatever distance I stop being able to cover group size with a closed fist is about where I consider that gun/ammo/shooter combo to cease being useful to me. Which basically means a 3.5-4" group. I'd expect to be able to hold near that at 20 yards, and that is where I increasingly become the limiting factor in that equation (i.e. have I been practicing enough).

[locochinoloco 0]

Thanks for the reply, I'm not trying to make any PF yet.  Just trying to get the gun to shot tighter groups from a bag for rest..... LOL ... I'm still a newb to everything. 

 

And I totally agree with the statement... "...accuracy was limited by the amount of target left to aim at and the size of the front sight blade."  Because I can hardly see the target holding the dot over it.

 

It seems like I just have to try different load till I find something that is 2" at 35' for the M&P9c, which I'll do this weekend.

[A-Tech 8]

Start with buying a Glock, then go back and check your groups. I load 4.6gr of W231 under a 124gr fmj @ 1.055"

[locochinoloco 0]

LOL ... I actually picked up a PPQ M2 just this pass weekend but didn't have a chance to get to the range.

 

The PPQ came with the tested shots of a target at 15m, it can did 1.5" group with 115gr FMJ.  

 

So, instead of trying to develop new loads, I might just sell the M&P9c in the very near future.

[raz-0 1,259]

LOL ... I actually picked up a PPQ M2 just this pass weekend but didn't have a chance to get to the range.

 

The PPQ came with the tested shots of a target at 15m, it can did 1.5" group with 115gr FMJ.  

 

So, instead of trying to develop new loads, I might just sell the M&P9c in the very near future.

 

That's kind of silly. You should at least run your loads through it and see what groups you get with it before you do that.

[locochinoloco 0]

That's kind of silly. You should at least run your loads through it and see what groups you get with it before you do that.

 

LOL ... I agree 100%.

 

But the wife bought the M&P9c because of Falia on YouTube and now she uses it to shoot steel matches and is not very happy with it.  By spending a few coins I can make her happy, why not.    At least with the new toy, she can't say the it's the ammo or gun.  LOL ... 

 

I'm going to run the loads that I made already anyway, just to learn, since I'm new to reloading. 

[locochinoloco 0]

I finally got the ProChono and have the following data from yesterday.  All HRTRS brass with TulAmmo SPP, it was about 55 degrees, chrono was placed 15 feet from the muzzle and 10 shots rested from the range bag.  Initially I just shot through the chrono at a target 50 feet away and wasn't really concerned about accuracy.  Because I thought the chrono would give me the answer that I'm looking for.  I learned that I shouldn't shoot too fast or it will miss some shots.  And after coming home and reading, I also learned that I should take more time to aim and maybe move the chrono to 8 feet from the muzzle and shoot at something that I can see better?

 

I understand what the numbers mean but is baffled by the results.  Sample 4 seems to be the "Best" with the lowest ES and std dev, is that true?  Assuming if I had a Ransom Rest, it would produce the tightest group?

 

Sample Firearm Date Bullet Bullet (gr) Powder Powder (gr) OAL (in) High Low Average Ext. Spread Std Dev.

1 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.2 1.16 1070 1027 1052 43 11

2 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.2 1.14 1076 1046 1061 30 7

3 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.2 1.12 1089 1055 1070 34 12

4 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.4 1.16 1101 1079 1087 22 5

5 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.4 1.14 1123 1085 1109 38 10

6 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.4 1.12 1126 1100 1109 26 8

7 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.6 1.16 1134 1101 1112 33 11

8 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.6 1.14 1160 1133 1142 27 9

9 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.6 1.12 1128 1103 1114 25 9

10 PPQ M2 2/23/2014 Berry's 115 Bullseye 4.8 1.16 1180 1148 1166 32 10

 

Based on the data, which sample woud you consider "best" and what can I change to make it better?

 

Thanks in advance!

[10X 3,306]

Sample 4 is indeed the 'best' based on these numbers.  Whether or not it's statistically better from some of the other 'good' loads isn't clear from the data, but one can go nuts trying to pin that down.

 

'Best' based on consistent velocity (minimum extreme spread, lowest SD) may be the most precise load (best grouping) as well--but that's not guaranteed.  Some bullets, some guns, have a 'best' velocity for maximizing precision, and only shooting for group will show that.   But, finding the 'best' load for consistent velocity is a real good start, and if it also groups well, that might be all you need to do.

[locochinoloco 0]

I've notice that!  ... "Some bullets, some guns, have a 'best' velocity for maximizing precision, and only shooting for group will show that." .....That's why I was confused as to why with slightly higher ES and SD I was able to get a better group.

 

Good to know!!!!  Thanks!!!!

[raz-0 1,259]

Sample 4 is indeed the 'best' based on these numbers.  Whether or not it's statistically better from some of the other 'good' loads isn't clear from the data, but one can go nuts trying to pin that down.

 

'Best' based on consistent velocity (minimum extreme spread, lowest SD) may be the most precise load (best grouping) as well--but that's not guaranteed.  Some bullets, some guns, have a 'best' velocity for maximizing precision, and only shooting for group will show that.   But, finding the 'best' load for consistent velocity is a real good start, and if it also groups well, that might be all you need to do.

 

 

It's pistol a low SD is something meaningful when you are dealing with using a cartridge where there is a lot of drop at range and  50fps at the muzzle may make a big difference whenb you want a 1" group at 200 yards. 

 

For pistol, it verges on meaningless, especially when comparing an SD of 5 vs 12.  Heck, I've had a load with an SD of 30 that outshot another loading with an SD of 4 for pistol ammo. 

 

As for the OP, switching out guns really doesn't give us more data to make suggestions on. We now have insufficient data about two guns, and that's about it. 

 

I'm going to say that IMO, aim for a nominal OAL of 1.12". This is close to factory ammo in general regardless of SAAMI specs for 9x19, and it will run in pretty much anything as long as bullet profile is appropriate fro length, and crimp is good. For a load that does decently in both full sized and compact guns, I use 124gr bullets at 140pf out of my full sized baby eagle. That gets me just under 125pf out of my 3.5" traditionally rifled LS-9. I used titegroup to do it. 

 

IMO, looking at trends in the data you have produced, I'd hazard a guess that going below 1.12 OAL you might be choking up too far on the bullet and causing issues. SO 1.12" OAL, and aim for about 1150fps out of the 4" barreled guns. See how that does. My experience is tha 12' is about right to avoid issues with false readings from smoke while getting the chrono as close as you can for repeatability. Then get something to aim at, as firing on a different angle can alter the velocity by as much as 10% in my experience. IF you want to load a variety, I suggest you concentrate on 1.12-1.13" OAL, and leave most of the variety in charge weight. Then bring enough to shoot groups and chrono separately. 

 

One other thing, if the herter's is the blue tipped coated lead stuff, that's essentially a lead projectile and in my experience will be a bit more accurate as long as it is crimped properly and not driven too hard. MY experience for pistol accuracy is that lead > plated > jacketed at least when buying cheap components in bulk. 

[locochinoloco 0]

It's pistol a low SD is something meaningful when you are dealing with using a cartridge where there is a lot of drop at range and  50fps at the muzzle may make a big difference whenb you want a 1" group at 200 yards. 

 

For pistol, it verges on meaningless, especially when comparing an SD of 5 vs 12.  Heck, I've had a load with an SD of 30 that outshot another loading with an SD of 4 for pistol ammo. 

 

As for the OP, switching out guns really doesn't give us more data to make suggestions on. We now have insufficient data about two guns, and that's about it. 

 

I'm going to say that IMO, aim for a nominal OAL of 1.12". This is close to factory ammo in general regardless of SAAMI specs for 9x19, and it will run in pretty much anything as long as bullet profile is appropriate fro length, and crimp is good. For a load that does decently in both full sized and compact guns, I use 124gr bullets at 140pf out of my full sized baby eagle. That gets me just under 125pf out of my 3.5" traditionally rifled LS-9. I used titegroup to do it. 

 

IMO, looking at trends in the data you have produced, I'd hazard a guess that going below 1.12 OAL you might be choking up too far on the bullet and causing issues. SO 1.12" OAL, and aim for about 1150fps out of the 4" barreled guns. See how that does. My experience is tha 12' is about right to avoid issues with false readings from smoke while getting the chrono as close as you can for repeatability. Then get something to aim at, as firing on a different angle can alter the velocity by as much as 10% in my experience. IF you want to load a variety, I suggest you concentrate on 1.12-1.13" OAL, and leave most of the variety in charge weight. Then bring enough to shoot groups and chrono separately. 

 

One other thing, if the herter's is the blue tipped coated lead stuff, that's essentially a lead projectile and in my experience will be a bit more accurate as long as it is crimped properly and not driven too hard. MY experience for pistol accuracy is that lead > plated > jacketed at least when buying cheap components in bulk. 

 

Man.... why can't there be more science to this stuff? LOL

 

I'm focusing on 1 gun at a time now, which is the PPQ.  Sorry about the confusing.  LOL  

 

So, besides the velocity and from that I can calculate the PF, how do I use a chrono to help me determine if a load is "accurate"?  Does the AVG or ES help at all??  

 

The best "group" I have is actually SAMPLE 8 at 2.98", SAMPLE 3 at 3.6" and SAMPLE 6 at 3.92".  Also, as you've mention earlier,  "...accuracy was limited by the amount of target left to aim at and the size of the front sight blade." .... so instead of shooting at 50', perhaps I should bring it closer to 30' or something.  So I can actually see what the heck I'm shooting at vs. the sight blocking the 1.5" dot.

 

The harder I try, the more confused I am..... I guess the more I know, the less I know... LOL

[raz-0 1,259]

If sample 8 is 1.14 at 1143, using 4.6gr, I'd try 4.5gr at 1.12. Note it's pretty close to the 1150 I suggested. You now know the velocity of something accurate using that bullet. You can aim for that velocity at a shorter oal that is more reliable, and if you change powder you can aim there and do ladder loads to find the sweet spot.

 

 

[locochinoloco 0]

Why the magic number 1150 fps?  I like to understand vs. just doing what I'm told.  

 

Thanks!