is my barrel crooked, or iron sights inconclusive at 50 yards?

[Barms 98]

Just got back from second outing with my first AR build.   (yes I shoot it indoors.. ha ha reference my other post..)

 

I have Magpul BUIS.   At 25 yards kneeling (no sled for the rest just balancing on the mag) I can very consistently group them on the direct bullseye or within the first ring of one of those Glo-Shot targets.. call it 3 inches?

 

but then when I push it out to 50 yards it all goes bad.  all my shots were heading up to the 2-3 oclock area and about 7 inches away, like right at edge of 10" target.    so 25yards in the bulls..  50 yards mostly right and slightly higher.

 

So I start adjusting my windage..  5 clicks.. and ya know what?  it didn't move the shots at all.   I was like how could this be?   then it occurred to me.  with that sight  (circle rear and post front), at 50 yards, really the rear sights does nothing for me.  As I was looking down the barrel to the front post to make my lollipop (or the best you can do at 50 yards its all blurry really anyway) I am not even using the rear sight I'm just looking THROUGH it to get to the front sight. The rear disappears as you focus on the front and the target.  At that far away I can tilt my head left or right still looking through the rear to engage the front.  so to me adjusting windage (with that MBUIS) didn't do anything for my 25 to 50 change.

 

So here is my question.  If I'm nailing consistently at 25 but then veering off at 50 was my upper configured askew?  Or can this really only be determined with a scope?  With the iron sights I have I feel its impossible to make windage adjustments that rear circle is just too big (yes I am using the smaller choice) to realize left/right adjustments.    I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

 

I do own a red dot, I have not used it yet.  I thought the procedure was to get your irons perfect first.. then go red dot.

 

At the end of the day its not a high precision rifle anyway.. just hobby/HD and its my first build.  But this is all about the learning process.  At least the positives I have going for me is that I know at 50 yards at least I'm consistent.  they were right and slightly high and all on the 10" target.  So its not an agregious wobbling by me or inconsistent barrel or ammo.

 

I welcome your thoughts.

[Vlad G 345]

With the plastic mbus rear sight on the small aperture you should be able to hold 1" groups at 50yards from most rifles with most ammo, from prone or rested. I don't know if I understand your shooting technique as described but it doesn't sound to me like you had a solid rest, and I don't know how well you can personally shoot. The point of shooting from a rest or prone is to take as much of the shooter out of the equation as possible.

 

The small aperture with a standard front sight, correctly and tightly attached to the gun should be able to do 1moa groups (assuming the ammo and gun can) and adjustments should surely make a difference in point of impact.

 

So go back and shoot it from a rest or prone, if that still produces patterns instead of groups then have someone else shoot it.

[vladtepes 1,060]

If you are shooting solid at 25

And you are having issues further out

 

I might lean towards user error.... As you get distance your shots will change up and down... But not by much... And certainly not dramatically to the left or right...make sure everything is tight shoot a solid group at 25... Then work on it at 50... If it is a legit tight group it should be pretty close at 50 just high....

 

Once you shoot tight groups at 50 you can make elevation adjustment to get a 50 yard 0

[raz-0 1,259]

Windage functions just fine at 25, 50, 100, etcetera big aperture or small. You are doing something wrong. A canted barrel will cause some oddness with where sight adjustments move a group, but it won't make groups not move with sight adjustments.

[JTS1469 0]

The rear sight will keep you centered. When your shooting at 50 if your not using your rear sight at all your adjustments are not going to change anything. I use the sides of the front sight to make sure front post is where it should be.

 

Another thought. When I was trying to sight in mine I had a magpul front sight and by the time I got it on paper the front sight post was adjusted to the point where it was almost out of the thread. No matter what I tried to do I couldn't get it perfect. I got another front sight and problem was solved. I'm guessing I just got a bad one but it drove me crazy trying to figure it out because I'm new to shooting and never thought of faulty equipt.

[HavocMan 13]

http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/fm3_22x9c1.pdf

[Barms 98]

Raz-O..  I'm disagreeing a bit..

 

the MBUIS rear sight is just a circle.   with the rear sight as far back as possible, and my head 6 inches (or whatever, shortest stock setting) behind that.   If I'm looking at a target 50 yards downrange with my front post keenly on the target.  the front circle effectively becomes ENORMOUS as you are looking through it to the front fight at a small target 50 yards away.  (the inverse if you are shooting at a center mass 10 yards away).   Get what I'm saying?

 

I bet that if I was seated looking through both sights, and if I was centered on target, I could have a friend do 5 clicks of the rear sight and I would still say "I'm still on target" as the rear is practically having no bearing on my focus on the front sight on the target that far away (yes I'm still looking through the rear but it matter less at that distance).    I'm agreeing with JTS above, that said he mainly uses his front sight but my problem is not height, its windage at 50.

 

I guess what I will have to do is get a real rest to determine this.   But the weirdness about this, if my lack or a real rest is the issue, is that I was consistent group at 50 yards out, (just not center anymore,  so I'm not wobbling or shaking erratically.   They have a sled at the range.. but not for AR style.   I'm new.. still working the kinks out.   its not end of the world, I mean I'm still in the paint at 50 with irons..

[Edge 6]

I shoot service rifle competition, I've never used a BUIS and frankly, don't even know what it is. When shooting in whatever position whether prone, off hand, or sitting my eye is as close to the rear sight as possible with my nose pressed against the charging handle. If you're 6" away from the rear sight, I don't see how it's possible to have a consistent hold, or natural point of aim......

 

What size aperture does that rear sight have? Also what adjustment on that sight, 1/2 min, 1/4 min or more? At 50 yds with 1/2 min sights 5 clicks will give 1 1/4" of movement at the point of impact. Sight the rifle in the prone position preferably slung up. Find your natural point of aim, get a good consistent cheek weld as close as possible to the sight and put some shots on target..... Go from there.

 

 

http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/unit/servicerifle.asp

 

This is how it's done..... See how close he is to the sight, nose on the charging handle, slung up in a rock solid position.

 

 

Btw, I've been fortunate enough to shoot next to these guys at the Eastern Games last year at Camp Butner NC, quite an experience.....

[Vlad G 345]

 

 

the MBUIS rear sight is just a circle.   with the rear sight as far back as possible, and my head 6 inches (or whatever, shortest stock setting) behind that.   If I'm looking at a target 50 yards downrange with my front post keenly on the target.  the front circle effectively becomes ENORMOUS as you are looking through it to the front fight at a small target 50 yards away.  (the inverse if you are shooting at a center mass 10 yards away).   Get what I'm saying?

 

 

Sorry, you are wrong. A circle is actually all it should be, the point of peep sights is for the rear sight to be a halo around the front sight because your brain should center them just fine. I think your problem is the 6". That is a LOT. With your nose to the charging handle your eye should be far closer then 6" to the rear sight. The distance to the target matters not at all, you accuracy  is exactly the same at 5 feet or 50 feet or 500 feet, that doesn't change, your accuracy as minute of angle will not change.

 

Again, I use the same sight and I have no problems shooting 2moa with it bulk ammo, ie: 1 inch at 50 yards.

 

As I said before, have some else who can shoot iron sights well shoot your rifle from prone or rested. If they can shoot it, then it is you, not the barrel or the sights.

[High Exposure 5,664]

My money is on the barrel being fine. It is the loose nut behind the trigger

Read this: Dead Link
Sounds almost like you are too close to the sights. Your nose should be just barely touching the charging handle.

[raz-0 1,259]

Raz-O.. I'm disagreeing a bit..

 

the MBUIS rear sight is just a circle. with the rear sight as far back as possible, and my head 6 inches (or whatever, shortest stock setting) behind that. If I'm looking at a target 50 yards downrange with my front post keenly on the target. the front circle effectively becomes ENORMOUS as you are looking through it to the front fight at a small target 50 yards away. (the inverse if you are shooting at a center mass 10 yards away). Get what I'm saying?

 

I bet that if I was seated looking through both sights, and if I was centered on target, I could have a friend do 5 clicks of the rear sight and I would still say "I'm still on target" as the rear is practically having no bearing on my focus on the front sight on the target that far away (yes I'm still looking through the rear but it matter less at that distance). I'm agreeing with JTS above, that said he mainly uses his front sight but my problem is not height, its windage at 50.

 

I guess what I will have to do is get a real rest to determine this. But the weirdness about this, if my lack or a real rest is the issue, is that I was consistent group at 50 yards out, (just not center anymore, so I'm not wobbling or shaking erratically. They have a sled at the range.. but not for AR style. I'm new.. still working the kinks out. its not end of the world, I mean I'm still in the paint at 50 with irons..

One of us is getting patterns at 50 yards, and one of us is not. Also the marines use the small aperture to hit out to 600.

 

Guess who is right about ghost ring sights working and who is not. I'll give you a hint. I could miss the broad side of a barn at 2 yards, I'm pretty sure all the branches of the armed forces didn't fail to notice all their sights didn't work since the sixties.

 

Nose to charging handle. Your brain likes to center things in circles you want to see... get this... A ghost image of the rear aperture when looking through it. Your brain will take care of the rest with one notable exception. If you have an astigmatism that interferes with the front sight post when centered, you may pushe it to one side to see it clearly because your brain likes to see stuff you focus on more than to center things in circles.

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

The issue seems to be improper sight alignment and sight picture.  Here is a link to an example (if I did this right): http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/3093/project1dy6.png

The one on the left is correct.

[Barms 98]

okay I'm really butchering describing my issues here so maybe I should just report back after I get a solid rest.   first I'd like to retract my 6" statement..  I have the Magpul fixed stock, so yes my nose is right up on the CH.

 

what I meant by my rear sight does nothing is when I'm seeing this:   (click below)

 

 

like to me adjusting the windage doesn't do much.  literally your head alignment can effect your shot more than 5 clicks of windage because when I see that sight picture all I'm really doing is focusing on the front post.   And at 50 yards man that bullseye to me is just a blur.   I did 5 shots wide was right and slightly high.. moved it 5 clicks and rounds were virtually in the same spot.   so that's what made me deduce that front sight was everything and rear was doing nothing for me.

 

so ill report back after I tinker around more..  I appreciate all the feedback as usual.   you guys help me a ton.

[Vlad G 345]

If you are seeing the rear site at ALL you are doing something wrong, it should be a shadow.

[mipafox 438]

3" at 25 yards (well, 25 meters) does not even count as a zeroed firearm for a run of the mill Army recruit in Basic training, such as a budding Cook. They'll never even let you shoot at a target. It's not horrible for messing around, but it's not good enough to call a rifle zeroed. You need to start by zeroing your rifle. If you need to shoot prone or from a rest to do it, then do it. Until then you don't know what you are working with.

 

You should have your nose on the charging handle for this type of shooting to ensure consistent stock to cheek weld, which will also help with repeatable sight alignment. When you make that alignment you should be able to check that the post is centered in the rear ring every time. That means you have proper sight alignment under natural point of aim.

 

Horizontal stringing is usually trigger press. Up and down is officially diagnosed as breathing, but could be a lot of things. Cheek weld/sight alignment and unstable shooting position can cause anything.

[Scrap 4]

I used a rear MBUS on my Bushmaster 14.5" HBAR (Otherwise configured like a normal AR / M4-style AR15 w/ front sight post etc.) and while I am not Wyatt Earp it was pretty much decent and shooting correctly.  I also use front and rear MBUS on my 15-22 and they shoot perfectly, very good in fact.

 

I think Vlad G had a very good post and the 6" and distance is very relevant to your situation and the effect on paper.

[A-Tech 8]

Dude, it's you. It's not the sights. Mipafox has it right about the 3" group at 25yds. As Charges Barkley would say, that's just turrble. You should making touching holes at 25yds with ease. I am inclined to think it's your trigger pull. Try shooting another AR and see what the results are. Better yet, have an experienced shooter try yours....and get that thing zeroed.

[redtornado23 0]

since it's your first build, i'm guessing you haven't put that many rounds down range?  i haven't had my ar together all that long and only have around 500-600 rounds through it. zeroing your sights is definitely step one, although even if not zeroed, you should be consistently "off" and not all over the place, which it sounds like you are, so it could be worse.  this is definitely a practice makes perfect situation, i'm in the same boat.  i can see my groups getting slightly tighter each trip to the range as i become more comfortable with holding/loading/firing...and as i remember to aim the rifle correctly, cheek placement, eye relief, etc.  i still need work, but becoming familiar with the rifle and mechanics of shooting properly takes time, i'll get there eventually and so will you.

[SJ Shooter 10]

Great info......

[Barms 98]

Don't you love when old threads get renewed.

 

there has to be some sort of internet word for bringing threads back from the dead.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Necroposting

[A-Tech 8]

Necroposting

Perfect

[kman 56]

The problem is shooting is way more than just equipment.  You can have all the equipment you want, the bullet isn't going to get there until you get quality trigger time under your belt, and the fundamental skills of marksmanship become second nature.

 

Get yourself a .22 LR rifle ($300), get some upgraded sights or a scope ($100), and 10,000 rounds of ammunition (when available again, around 400-500 bucks), and fire 10,000 aimed rounds at a target, preferably with a spotting scope on a tripod next to you, so you can look after each shot and see where each shot you fired went, versus where you thought it would go.  When they go somewhere else, stop and think about what you are doing, and refine your technique.  .22 is good for this since the lack of recoil means you can feel when you do something wrong, whereas with a loud recoiling round you have less ability to self-diagnose the cause of errors.

 

Eventually, you will become very accurate, and then you will be able to rule out your own error, and if a rifle is not returning acceptable accuracy, you will be able to rule yourself out as a cause.  But not before that.