Loaded Mag

[ryan_j 0]

I've said it before and this thread proves it, "NJ gun owners are their worst enemy."

 

Many of us here agree 100% to what vladtepes and others are saying, but we're too tired, way too tired, to constantly put it into words.

 

 

I agree that it might be "no big deal" to transport loaded mags. 

 

But I'm saying that there is no way he can say definitively that it is a legal thing to do, because there's no definition of loaded, and that Nappen (an attorney who deals with these kinds of cases) says it may be a bad idea because they could construe it to be part of the firearm.

[ryan_j 0]

Based on what in NJ law?

Is a single bullet next to a handgun a loaded gun?

 

Probably.

 

Why?

 

NJ does not define loaded.

Common sense? Didn't work out too well for a number of cases, including Revell and Aitken. 

 

But anyone with common sense will know that it's not loaded. However, if it gets to the point where you're placed in front of a judge for him/her to figure that out, there's a chance we could answer this question, and you may not like the answer. 

[ryan_j 0]

In NJ the gun is loaded unless it is unloaded.. that is what the law says... unloaded means not charged with ammo.. charged with ammo means ammo in the gun... 

 

no ammo in the gun.. then the gun is unloaded...

 

in NJ a single round is NOT a stretch based on your reasoning.. you know why? because your concern is one based in fear and not fact.. since NJ does not define "unloaded" and you refuse to accept the dictionary definition.. unloaded could mean anything.. you said that yourself... so a single round is no more a stretch than a loaded mag.. because NEITHER are prohibited by the LAW... 

 

you should probably have a safe welded to the frame of your car... or maybe two.. lock up your ammo in one.. and your guns in the other.. that way you do not get in trouble based on some nonexistent law.. 

 

 

 

Let's say you have an AR with a fixed stock, and a separate collapsable stock (not attached to the gun) in your NJ home. Police raid your house, find both. What will be the outcome?  

 

This is another question routinely asked here and the answer usually is "constructive possession." 

 

But anyway nobody knows because nobody has been arrested/charged/tried for it. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Let's say you have an AR with a fixed stock, and a separate collapsable stock (not attached to the gun) in your NJ home. Police raid your house, find both. What will be the outcome?  

 

This is another question routinely asked here and the answer usually is "constructive possession." 

 

But anyway nobody knows because nobody has been arrested/charged/tried for it. 

 

 

what if you are changing the stock on your shotgun... and for the moment that the stock is off the gun it is technically a sawed off shotgun.. sitting there with tools all apart and the new stock next to it.. 

 

and the police raid the wrong house.. (yours) will you go to jail?

 

 

 

when the law does not define something in a specific way the word means what it means.. NJ does not define a lot of words used in various laws... they do not define "vehicle" so how could one know what they mean by vehicle... do they mean a car? a truck? maybe they ONLY mean Geo Trackers.. how could you possibly know if they do not define it?

 

 

if you have a fixed stock on an AR and a traditional stock sitting in a parts bin I do not buy constructive possession.. I had a collapsible AR stock on a mossberg 500 while I owned an AR.. I could have technically swapped it over.. was I breaking the law?

[ryan_j 0]

If you're moving from one house to another with hollow points, is that legal?

 

If you're walking through an airport terminal with a gun in your suitcase, is that legal?

 

These are things people thought was just common sense but the courts came back and narrowly interpreted.

[vladtepes 1,060]

If you're moving from one house to another with hollow points, is that legal?

 

If you're walking through an airport terminal with a gun in your suitcase, is that legal?

 

These are things people thought was just common sense but the courts came back and narrowly interpreted.

 

what it comes down to is this.. common sense is one thing.. that requires guessing and uncertainty...

 

the law defines a word or not.. thats why there is an extensive list of definitions...

if the law does not define something it reverts to its accepted definition... (exactly how it did in the court case listed above)

that is why SOME states define loaded...

 

in the event that "unloaded" is not defined.. the accepted literal definition trumps common sense.. or guessing.. or interpretation..

the word means what it means.. nothing more.. nothing less..

[brocglock23 4]

I agree that it might be "no big deal" to transport loaded mags.

 

But I'm saying that there is no way he can say definitively that it is a legal thing to do, because there's no definition of loaded, and that Nappen (an attorney who deals with these kinds of cases) says it may be a bad idea because they could construe it to be part of the firearm.

it was always my understanding that laws are made to tell us what is illegal. When the day comes that I need to refer to a set of laws to tell me what I can do instead of what of what I can't do, I'll just be a criminal.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Vlad G 345]

it was always my understanding that laws are made to tell us what is illegal. When the day comes that I need to refer to a set of laws to tell me what I can do instead of what of what I can't do, I'll just be a criminal.

 

 

 

Welcome to today.

[brocglock23 4]

Welcome to today.

damn it!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Probably.

 

Why?

 

NJ does not define loaded.

Common sense? Didn't work out too well for a number of cases, including Revell and Aitken. 

 

But anyone with common sense will know that it's not loaded. However, if it gets to the point where you're placed in front of a judge for him/her to figure that out, there's a chance we could answer this question, and you may not like the answer. 

NEWS FLASH:  Aitken is as guilty as the day is long!  Drivin'-around for months with hand guns in the trunk of his car is covered by current laws on the books, so PLEASE stop using him as a 2A Poster Child!  The BS defense of "moving" taking several months didn't as Joe Pesci said in "My Cousin Vinny", "HOLD WATER"!  Don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for the guy, but I'm a realist......

 

You Kids have a lot to learn about what really transpires at regularly scheduled Matches.  Competitors walk-in from their vehicles with Competitive Edge Dynamics Professional Range Bags.  Most load their mags at the Match site simply because they manufactured their rounds only a night or two prior to the Match, but some of us that use factory ammo come in with loaded mags in their respective pouches built-into the Bag.  Some use the cavernous spaces in the bag for loose bullets, a ziplock bag of bullets labeled for the gun we're going to use, etc.  Some of us have multiple guns in a single Bag, stored both inside the pockets provided as well as rugs inside the Bag.  NONE of us carry loaded guns in our Range Bags, but your "definition" of a loose round or two layin' in the bottom of one of these Bags means that every gun in that Bag (I bring two .45's and two .357's at all times, sometimes MORE) is considered "Loaded"!  I find THAT to be so far beyond common sense belief that I can't consider it a real threat to my health, safety or welfare!  

 

The definition of what goes onto a shotgun, rifle, or other device isn't being argued here, merely loaded mags, so please let's not widen the scope of the conversation......

 

Dave

Old Fudd

[ryan_j 0]

NEWS FLASH: Aitken is as guilty as the day is long! Drivin'-around for months with hand guns in the trunk of his car is covered by current laws on the books, so PLEASE stop using him as a 2A Poster Child! The BS defense of "moving" taking several months didn't as Joe Pesci said in "My Cousin Vinny", "HOLD WATER"! Don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for the guy, but I'm a realist......

 

You Kids have a lot to learn about what really transpires at regularly scheduled Matches. Competitors walk-in from their vehicles with Competitive Edge Dynamics Professional Range Bags. Most load their mags at the Match site simply because they manufactured their rounds only a night or two prior to the Match, but some of us that use factory ammo come in with loaded mags in their respective pouches built-into the Bag. Some use the cavernous spaces in the bag for loose bullets, a ziplock bag of bullets labeled for the gun we're going to use, etc. Some of us have multiple guns in a single Bag, stored both inside the pockets provided as well as rugs inside the Bag. NONE of us carry loaded guns in our Range Bags, but your "definition" of a loose round or two layin' in the bottom of one of these Bags means that every gun in that Bag (I bring two .45's and two .357's at all times, sometimes MORE) is considered "Loaded"! I find THAT to be so far beyond common sense belief that I can't consider it a real threat to my health, safety or welfare!

 

The definition of what goes onto a shotgun, rifle, or other device isn't being argued here, merely loaded mags, so please let's not widen the scope of the conversation......

 

Dave

Old Fudd

Aitken is important because all charges were dropped except the hollow points and the judge narrowly interpreted the law. Whether they did this to nail him for "something" or did it because he was genuinely not guilty is irrelevant. The fact is and the point is that NJ judges narrowly interpreted the law and do so all the time.

 

Yes people do things for years, all the time. Doesn't mean it's any more legal! But the point is that WE DO NOT KNOW because there is no case law, and until there is one, you act at your own peril.

[vladtepes 1,060]

You are missing the point..

 

The point is unless a word is defined by law... In a special way... The word means what it means...

 

By your logic a judge could decide a gun is loaded if it is even capable of being fired...

 

Because a loaded mag is no more a loaded gun than a gun in pieces...

[ryan_j 0]

You are missing the point..

 

The point is unless a word is defined by law... In a special way... The word means what it means...

 

 

You can't say that with any certainty unless you are a NJ judge. (and you aren't)

 

 

By your logic a judge could decide a gun is loaded if it is even capable of being fired...

 

Because a loaded mag is no more a loaded gun than a gun in pieces...

 

Isn't that called constructive possession? 

 

Your example is irrelevant anyway, they already say that a firearm rendered permanently inoperable isn't a firearm. 

[Silence Dogood 468]

Vlad - if it is of any interest to you I spent months here reading and re-reading your NJ laws thread before making up my mind to endure the insanity and apply for my FPID.

 

I still read there from time to time and recommend it to anyone interested in owning in NJ

 

SD

[vladtepes 1,060]

 

You can't say that with any certainty unless you are a NJ judge. (and you aren't)

 

 

 

Isn't that called constructive possession? 

 

Your example is irrelevant anyway, they already say that a firearm rendered permanently inoperable isn't a firearm. 

 

 

No I can say that.. that is how the law works... 

did you read the link to the court case posted? 

 

words that are defined by law are defined by law..

and when they are not..

they reference the accepted dictionary definition of the word...

 

and who said anything about permanent.. take firing pin removal.. if the law was as vague as you seem to think it is.. a judge could rule that because you had ammo and a gun in the same vehicle it is essentially loaded.. because it could be fired (like your argument about mags).. the judge could declare that you must do something additional like removal of the firing pin.. 

 

since unloaded means unloaded and you refuse to accept that.. there is essentially no difference between mandating the removal of a firing pin OR unloading mags..

NEITHER are written into law.. so NEITHER apply... (unless NJ defined unloaded in the actual law.. which they do NOT)

 

Vlad - if it is of any interest to you I spent months here reading and re-reading your NJ laws thread before making up my mind to endure the insanity and apply for my FPID.

 

I still read there from time to time and recommend it to anyone interested in owning in NJ

 

SD

 

its appreciated.. lol

[NEAHS 11]

since unloaded means unloaded and you refuse to accept that.. there is essentially no difference between mandating the removal of a firing pin OR unloading mags..

NEITHER are written into law.. so NEITHER apply... (unless NJ defined unloaded in the actual law.. which they do NOT)

 

x1,000,000,000

 

Like some have said: " NJ gun owners are our own worst enemy". Here we have some that are so afraid of big bad NJ gun laws, that they are even afraid of laws that do not exist.

[mipafox 438]

If you're walking through an airport terminal with a gun in your suitcase, is that legal?

 

These are things people thought was just common sense but the courts came back and narrowly interpreted.

That's funny. Just the other day you were insisting there was no case law on this very point with the case law staring you in the face. Now you are complaining about the case law that you claim does not exist.

[ryan_j 0]

That's funny. Just the other day you were insisting there was no case law on this very point with the case law staring you in the face. Now you are complaining about the case law that you claim does not exist.

 

What I was talking about was completely different. I see logic and you haven't crossed paths yet. 

[leahcim 680]

words that are defined by law are defined by law..

and when they are not..

they reference the accepted dictionary definition of the word...

 

and who said anything about permanent.. take firing pin removal.. if the law was as vague as you seem to think it is.. a judge could rule that because you had ammo and a gun in the same vehicle it is essentially loaded.. because it could be fired (like your argument about mags).. the judge could declare that you must do something additional like removal of the firing pin.. 

 

 

This is why I field strip all guns for transport.  I place the lowers in a safe, locked in my trunk, and the uppers in another safe in locked trailer that I tow.  I then seal the trunk lid and trailer doors with JB weld.

I also remove all firing pins and send them by courrier.

Ammunition?  I send separate shipments of bullets, primers, brass and powder, and a progressive press to the range via fedex and assemble on site.

 

Guy at a gun shop mentioned this is considered best practice in order to avoid getting jammed up by the law.  Said he heard it from a guy who read Nappen's book.

[pjd832 146]

Wouldn't it be nice if nj laws were this clear?

 

What PA Considers A Loaded Firearm

18 Pa.C.S.A. § 6102 Definitions

"Loaded." A firearm is loaded if the firing chamber, the nondetachable magazine or, in the case of a revolver, any of the chambers of the cylinder contain ammunition capable of being fired. In the case of a firearm which utilizes a detachable magazine, the term shall mean a magazine suitable for use in

said firearm which magazine contains such ammunition and has been inserted in the firearm or is in the same container or, where the container has multiple compartments, the same compartment thereof as the firearm. If the magazine is inserted into a pouch, holder, holster or other protective device that provides for a complete and secure enclosure of the ammunition, then the pouch, holder, holster or other protective device shall be deemed to be a separate compartment.

[vladtepes 1,060]

This is why I field strip all guns for transport.  I place the lowers in a safe, locked in my trunk, and the uppers in another safe in locked trailer that I tow.  I then seal the trunk lid and trailer doors with JB weld.

I also remove all firing pins and send them by courrier.

Ammunition?  I send separate shipments of bullets, primers, brass and powder, and a progressive press to the range via fedex and assemble on site.

 

Guy at a gun shop mentioned this is considered best practice in order to avoid getting jammed up by the law.  Said he heard it from a guy who read Nappen's book.

And I bet you still worry... Even after following all those imaginary rules... After all NJ can interpret the law however they feel like...

[leahcim 680]

What I would be concerned about is being detained by LEO who maybe does not exactly know the law.  Especially when the NJSP guidelines for transporting firearms into NJ seem to mix both the NJ transport and FOPA transport laws:

• Shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel, shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

• The firearm should not be directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console.

The "not directly accessible" is not mentioned in NJ code for intrastate transport (I believe this is from FOPA for interstate transport).  So, while it may be legal to transport a handgun and charged magazines directly to the range in a ziploc bag on the passenger seat, if you are stopped you may be detained and you may be detained and have the opportunity to talk to a real lawyer ;-)

While it may be legal, I always transport firearms out of sight, usually in the trunk.