Range trip after work

[Smokin .50 1,907]

33 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

There is NO exemption for even BRINGING a handgun to your relatives house...never mind storing it there.   You cant even bring the damn thing shark fishing.

LOL, I've been at this firearms usage thing for only a brief time (like Griz).  I know what works.  I know the laws.

Yes, firearms exist in the PRNJ only thru exceptions and exemptions.  We all KNOW that, but we sometimes overlook the obvious just to make a point and "try" to be right thru nit-picking (as Ray outlined).  So riddle me this BatMan:  if your multi-million dollar 3 story beach house is about to be washed-away, and your relative or friend said he/she would take your guns, and also offers a spare bedroom or couch to crash on while you put yer life back together, you've just SWITCHED RESIDENCES, RIGHT?  

When facing laws, ANY laws, and especially firearms laws, one must always take themselves out of the equation and search their open mind for an answer that makes sense instead of merely applying what they THINK they know to be true.  Laws aren't written in a complete vacuum, and their vagueness often lends itself to "common-sense" interpretation.  That's how the phrase, "Normal and Customary" is applied in legal context.  If your beach estate (or your low-rent "Sugar Shack") is washed-away, burnt to a crisp, severely flooded or has a tree fall on it rendering it uninhabitable, it's "Normal and Customary" to seek shelter at a friend's or relatives...  Hell it's even in the Bible, lol!

Telling someone they absolutely CAN'T do something is an absolute.  There are ways to do LOTS of things.  An open mind is all it takes.

[Sevenshot 98]

4 hours ago, Newtonian said:

 

You're right, and the same is true for leaving it at a relative's house. The 5-10 year sentences make pussies of us all.

This is really the issue. I get that I can likely get away with doing it anyway. I get that there is some common sense that could be applied, but I can say that about the majority of NJ's firearm laws. I really just want to shoot more often at the range lol. The consequences of a freak occurrence are so severe that I'm not willing to take any chances.

 

i would love to hear more on the being able to transport a pistol if member of a club. Would I then be able to leave a locked container and in a family member's safe? Or will I have to bring it to work? Seems like the correct answer is obvious, but again it's NJ. 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

24 minutes ago, Sevenshot said:

This is really the issue. I get that I can likely get away with doing it anyway. I get that there is some common sense that could be applied, but I can say that about the majority of NJ's firearm laws. I really just want to shoot more often at the range lol. The consequences of a freak occurrence are so severe that I'm not willing to take any chances.

 

i would love to hear more on the being able to transport a pistol if member of a club. Would I then be able to leave a locked container and in a family member's safe? Or will I have to bring it to work? Seems like the correct answer is obvious, but again it's NJ. 

The "Member of a Club" exemption is NOT for transportation issues, it's for a POSSESSION issue.  When a Club sends a list of members to the NJSP, some of the overbearing rules are "relaxed", namely letting others shoot your hand guns and long guns (here, try mine...), as well as allowing a temporary physical transfer between friends IF the owner of the gun hangs at the range to babysit his/her gun that they "loaned" you for up to 8 continuous hours.  This exemption was carved-out so as to enable competition shooters with forgotten or broken guns to still be able to shoot a match by having their squad members dole-out equipment on an emergency basis.  Note that the owner of the loaned firearm only has to be physically on the same property, not within sight of the loaned gun.  So I could loan you a gun for a steel match and then leave that area and go shoot a shotgun match at the same range  .

Griz has already answered the question of leaving a locked container at a relative's or friends house.  As a federal LEO (retired) he feels that no illegal transfer occurs if a locked gun case is left for safe-keeping since the firearm is inaccessible (I'm paraphrasing and a little tired).

I hope my input has been eye-opening and entertaining.  All this legal stuff can get rather "Dry" at times  

[Ray Ray 3,566]

58 minutes ago, Sevenshot said:

This is really the issue. I get that I can likely get away with doing it anyway. I get that there is some common sense that could be applied, but I can say that about the majority of NJ's firearm laws. I really just want to shoot more often at the range lol. The consequences of a freak occurrence are so severe that I'm not willing to take any chances.

You are already beaten.  You have lost the fight.  Hopefully your voice isn't the one future NJ gun owners listen to.  It should be Rosey's or Griz's.

[jackandjill 683]

Its funny to see some of the same discussion repeat. I have lot of respect for someone with YEARS of NJ experience as firearm owner, but the reference to Hurricane Sandy and how Cops told everyone to move FIREARMS (including Handguns and HP ammo) to anywhere and everywhere, CANNOT BE  applied other days willy-nilly.  In the face of emergencies, Cops can direct people to take actions that otherwise are against law. 

 

If I were OP, having FPID, I would lock my long gun in the trunk of vehicle and visit range after work.  I would keep relatives out of equation (not for legal reason though). Leave handguns, HP ammo at home. 

 

Remember, none of us pay your legal bills if sh*t hits the fan for you. You do. 

[Howard 538]

5 minutes ago, jackandjill said:

Its funny to see some of the same discussion repeat. I have lot of respect for someone with YEARS of NJ experience as firearm owner, but the reference to Hurricane Sandy and how Cops told everyone to move FIREARMS (including Handguns and HP ammo) to anywhere and everywhere, CANNOT BE  applied other days willy-nilly.  In the face of emergencies, Cops can direct people to take actions that otherwise are against law. 

 

If I were OP, having FPID, I would lock my long gun in the trunk of vehicle and visit range after work.  I would keep relatives out of equation (not for legal reason though). Leave handguns, HP ammo at home. 

 

Remember, none of us pay your legal bills if sh*t hits the fan for you. You do. 

Agreed, Dave is usually spot on but I believe his analysis here is flawed.  Is it reasonable to move out of your home into a friend's when a natural disaster takes place with your gun - probably yet.  That is a VERY different case than just deciding because you don't want to make a trip home after work that you can just leave a gun at a friends house.  Similarly it really does not matter what some retired Federal LEO says for many reasons.  They are not NJ cops, and even if they were their word means nothing if you are picked up.  It is up to the prosecutor to decide.   Even the word on the phone from the State Police firearms unit means nothing.  The only ruling that means anything is the written one from the AG.  Tread at your own risk.  Common sense will likely keep you safe, but it is no defense, so be careful.  As Dave did correctly point out, hand guns are strictly illegal in the People's Republic of New Jermany except as carved out by specific exemptions.  Violate those exemptions at your own risk.

[Sevenshot 98]

6 minutes ago, Howard said:

.  Common sense will likely keep you safe, but it is no defense, so be careful.  As Dave did correctly point out, hand guns are strictly illegal in the People's Republic of New Jermany except as carved out by specific exemptions.  Violate those exemptions at your own risk.

I was pretty shocked to hear the ranges aren't as busy immediately after work. In NC, the ranges were always packed at that time since many have guns in their car or on them at work. 

I appreciate the advice and clarification, I'll read up on the locked box possibility (thanks griz).

[GRIZ 3,369]

1 hour ago, Howard said:

Agreed, Dave is usually spot on but I believe his analysis here is flawed.  Is it reasonable to move out of your home into a friend's when a natural disaster takes place with your gun - probably yet.  That is a VERY different case than just deciding because you don't want to make a trip home after work that you can just leave a gun at a friends house.  Similarly it really does not matter what some retired Federal LEO says for many reasons.  They are not NJ cops, and even if they were their word means nothing if you are picked up.  It is up to the prosecutor to decide.   Even the word on the phone from the State Police firearms unit means nothing.  The only ruling that means anything is the written one from the AG.  Tread at your own risk.  Common sense will likely keep you safe, but it is no defense, so be careful.  As Dave did correctly point out, hand guns are strictly illegal in the People's Republic of New Jermany except as carved out by specific exemptions.  Violate those exemptions at your own risk.

You may not believe what I say has no bearing because I'm not a "NJ cop".  Let me enlighten you.  

I was a "NJ cop" before I went to the Federal government and yes that was some time ago.  We had Task Force Officers (TFOs) assigned to my office in Newark.  These were state, county, and local LEOs assigned to my office.  They were sworn in and had the same powers I did.  What did the agency get in return?  We paid their overtime and the agency got asset sharing.  How much could their agency get for asset sharing?  NJSP got over $1,000,000 one year I'm aware of for having one Trooper assigned to my office.  That paid his salary and let NJSP collect the change.

There were many times we encountered state violations where there was no comparable Federal law.  TFOs usually would make those arrests and make those cases.  The US Attorney's Office would decline prosecution on some cases for various reasons.  If there was a comparable state law I would make the arrest and see the prosecution through the state courts.  Federal officers have full police powers in NJ.  My knowledge of NJ state criminal law and the judicial system is a lot more than you think.  Federal LEOs do not pursue enforcing state laws but if it happens it happens.

You are right in saying what I say or even a "NJ cop" tells you means nothing if you get picked up.  I can tell you about some more pretty much worthless advice. If you get arrested and tell the cop, "Evan Nappen said this was okay"  it wont help you either.   I've dealt with at least several hundred lawyers in my time.  Unless something is very clear in the law and you ask a lawyer for advice they will tell you not to do it.

Yes, prosecutors make the decision to prosecute a case.  Guess where they get there input?  From cops.  Do some cases get thrown out because there is not enough probable cause? Sure that happens rarely.  Cops don't make their careers by making bum arrests.  It is the prosecutor's duty to pursue a case as long as there is probable cause and the evidence was obtained legally.  To do anything else is malfeasance or nonfeasance depending how it is done.  Yes, there are things like plea bargaining and PTI which are designed to let a prosecutor clear his or her case load for not so serious offenses and offenders.

So yes, what I say will not help you if you get arrested.  But neither will anything told to you by an attorney.  

I think I've eliminated some of the "many reasons" you claim one should not listen to what I say.

[NJGF 375]

2015 New Jersey Revised Statutes
Title 2C - THE NEW JERSEY CODE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2015/title-2c/section-2c-39-6/
Section 2C:39-6 - Exemptions.

f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

The key advantage for a member is that instead of just being allowed to go from home to a range and back home again, you can go between ranges or any location where you can practice (including another persons property where you can legally shoot or a WMA). So you can drive between these multiple ranges, etc. with an unloaded pistol where a non-member doesn't have this exemption.

[Downtownv 1,778]

More bullshit...

[Howard 538]

8 hours ago, GRIZ said:

You may not believe what I say has no bearing because I'm not a "NJ cop".  Let me enlighten you.  

I was a "NJ cop" before I went to the Federal government and yes that was some time ago.  We had Task Force Officers (TFOs) assigned to my office in Newark.  These were state, county, and local LEOs assigned to my office.  They were sworn in and had the same powers I did.  What did the agency get in return?  We paid their overtime and the agency got asset sharing.  How much could their agency get for asset sharing?  NJSP got over $1,000,000 one year I'm aware of for having one Trooper assigned to my office.  That paid his salary and let NJSP collect the change.

There were many times we encountered state violations where there was no comparable Federal law.  TFOs usually would make those arrests and make those cases.  The US Attorney's Office would decline prosecution on some cases for various reasons.  If there was a comparable state law I would make the arrest and see the prosecution through the state courts.  Federal officers have full police powers in NJ.  My knowledge of NJ state criminal law and the judicial system is a lot more than you think.  Federal LEOs do not pursue enforcing state laws but if it happens it happens.

You are right in saying what I say or even a "NJ cop" tells you means nothing if you get picked up.  I can tell you about some more pretty much worthless advice. If you get arrested and tell the cop, "Evan Nappen said this was okay"  it wont help you either.   I've dealt with at least several hundred lawyers in my time.  Unless something is very clear in the law and you ask a lawyer for advice they will tell you not to do it.

Yes, prosecutors make the decision to prosecute a case.  Guess where they get there input?  From cops.  Do some cases get thrown out because there is not enough probable cause? Sure that happens rarely.  Cops don't make their careers by making bum arrests.  It is the prosecutor's duty to pursue a case as long as there is probable cause and the evidence was obtained legally.  To do anything else is malfeasance or nonfeasance depending how it is done.  Yes, there are things like plea bargaining and PTI which are designed to let a prosecutor clear his or her case load for not so serious offenses and offenders.

So yes, what I say will not help you if you get arrested.  But neither will anything told to you by an attorney.  

I think I've eliminated some of the "many reasons" you claim one should not listen to what I say.

My comment that what you say has no bearing was not meant as anything derogatory about you individually.  You actually said a similar (and correct) thing regarding the word of a lawyer.  Nothing except the prosecutor, judge and when applicable jury, really matters.

The point being you take all this advice and have to make decisions on your own because if you run into a problem you are shit out of luck if your response is a cop or a lawyer or anyone else told me this was ok to do.

 

Our gun laws in New Jermany are very unfortunate and filled with potential land mines.  I have been told many blatantly false things about them from lawyers and LEO's alike.  The best bet is to read the laws yourself when in double err on the safe side.  It is sort of like the old game The Price Is Right where the contestants would guess the price of a product.  You could win if you went up to the edge of the price and were closest.  But if you went over, even by just once cent, you lost everything.  The guns laws unfortunately are a lot like that game show.  Going to the edge opens you up to losing everything, and you don't really gain much by going that close to the edge anyway.

 

BTW - thanks for sharing your interesting background.

 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

4 hours ago, NJGF said:

2015 New Jersey Revised Statutes
Title 2C - THE NEW JERSEY CODE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2015/title-2c/section-2c-39-6/
Section 2C:39-6 - Exemptions.

f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

The key advantage for a member is that instead of just being allowed to go from home to a range and back home again, you can go between ranges or any location where you can practice (including another persons property where you can legally shoot or a WMA). So you can drive between these multiple ranges, etc. with an unloaded pistol where a non-member doesn't have this exemption.

Thanks for bringing this up.  I stand corrected on my point of not being covered during TRANSPORTATION.  Now here's a slight correction for you to file-away:  You are mostly correct, 'cept for part of last paragraph.  FWIW pistols are VERBOTEN at all NJ WMA's, and if caught using one you'll be fined and possibly arrested as CO's have arrest powers.  For THAT reason, I strongly suggest, that at a minimum, if you're going on a statewide journey bouncing from one exempt location to another (as I often do representing NJ's busiest Second Amendment Organization--CNJFO), that you store your pistols completely SEPARATE from your long guns so they're BURIED in your trunk and not visible when stopping at a WMA to bust some clays with your Peeps  .  Mere possession of pistols at WMA's is technically a violation of NJ WMA Rules.  Burring them in your trunk shows you don't have INTENT to use them.  If you have to prove intent with a Lawyer, you're already SUNK.  So whatever you do, DON'T ADVERTISE YOU HAVE THEM and just continue on your trek to the next exempt location (range, etc., etc.)  

[NJGF 375]

1 hour ago, Smokin .50 said:

 FWIW pistols are VERBOTEN at all NJ WMA's, and if caught using one you'll be fined and possibly arrested as CO's have arrest powers.

Thanks for catching that...I misspoke. I have only brought my .22LR rifle and shotguns to the WMA's.

[Sota 1,191]

As I mentioned before, Page 104 of Evan Nappen's book (C)2015 covers GUN CLUBS and the special exemptions provided by being a member of an appropriately chartered one.

I won't attempt to copy it all here, for various reasons, and suggest those of you who have it, look at the page referenced. 

Since I am now a member of U.S. Law Shield, which has Nappen's firm on board as the primary firm in case of need, I'll stick with the answers of "I do not answer questions. Here are my papers as required by law.", "I do not consent to any searches of my vehicle or person.", and finally "I am exercising my right to remain silent." if confronted for any reason by law enforcement while traveling, as recommended by the same Evan Nappen.

Otherwise, if I choose to transport any firearm with me on a day I plan on going to the range, I will do so, in compliance with the transport regulations, and under the exemptions provided.

Finally, there's a seminar on May 21st that Evan will be speaking at and will probably have a Q&A at the end.  I encourage everyone to attend that can.  If not, there will be more.

https://texaslawshield.secure.force.com/pmtx/evt__QuickEvent?id=a2z3100000SRvpy

Register as a non-member (unless you are a member of SCFGPA) and select pay later, and pay the $10 at the door.

This will be my last on this topic.  You are all big boys and girls; go make your own decisions.

[Persona non grata 113]

2 hours ago, sota said:

As I mentioned before, Page 104 of Evan Nappen's book (C)2015 covers GUN CLUBS and the special exemptions provided by being a member of an appropriately chartered one.

I won't attempt to copy it all here, for various reasons, and suggest those of you who have it, look at the page referenced. 

Since I am now a member of U.S. Law Shield, which has Nappen's firm on board as the primary firm in case of need, I'll stick with the answers of "I do not answer questions. Here are my papers as required by law.", "I do not consent to any searches of my vehicle or person.", and finally "I am exercising my right to remain silent." if confronted for any reason by law enforcement while traveling, as recommended by the same Evan Nappen.

Otherwise, if I choose to transport any firearm with me on a day I plan on going to the range, I will do so, in compliance with the transport regulations, and under the exemptions provided.

Finally, there's a seminar on May 21st that Evan will be speaking at and will probably have a Q&A at the end.  I encourage everyone to attend that can.  If not, there will be more.

https://texaslawshield.secure.force.com/pmtx/evt__QuickEvent?id=a2z3100000SRvpy

Register as a non-member (unless you are a member of SCFGPA) and select pay later, and pay the $10 at the door.

This will be my last on this topic.  You are all big boys and girls; go make your own decisions.

Nice. Do these ever get cancelled if they don't get enough attendees? Looks like there's one in New Egypt on Tuesday, which is only about 35 minutes from work, but they've got 136 seats left. I'd hate to drive out that way after work to find out it's been cancelled.

[Walt of Destiny 412]

I'm with Ray. We let the stupidity win. If half the hand wringing on this thread applies to you, move or sell your guns. You don't have the stomach for it. 

Try as you might to be a good subject in the prnj, one call from your wife and you're done. So exercise your good judgement, don't be an asshole and shut the fuck up. A lot of us have gotten through a fair portion of our lives safely practicing those rules. It's beyond me how anyone can still beard rub on these questions.  

Oh and one more thing... regardless of who tells you what, you're on your own... good luck  

 

[Sota 1,191]

On 5/13/2017 at 1:18 PM, mattm754 said:

Nice. Do these ever get cancelled if they don't get enough attendees? Looks like there's one in New Egypt on Tuesday, which is only about 35 minutes from work, but they've got 136 seats left. I'd hate to drive out that way after work to find out it's been cancelled.

if the last meeting was any indication... no. we were probably exceeding the capacity of the fire hall.  I'd be going again but I've other commitments.  The plan i've been told is to have many more seminars going over various/specific topics, so i'll be attending more as I can.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

21 hours ago, Walt of Destiny said:

I'm with Ray. We let the stupidity win. If half the hand wringing on this thread applies to you, move or sell your guns. You don't have the stomach for it. 

So exercise your good judgement, don't be an asshole and shut the fuck up.   

Oh and one more thing... regardless of who tells you what, you're on your own... good luck  

 

This, right here, should be pinned on the NJGF wall.

[Danno 127]

On 5/10/2017 at 4:32 PM, matty said:

Just do it and shuddup about it, unless your relatives are scumbags. In which case I wouldn't do it

+1