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Bud, with all respect - you couldn’t be more wrong about what I know. And - I knew you were going to cherry pick this exact instance. First - this incident in Ohio in 1993 has nothing to do with current NJ use of force laws. Second - That sniper had to have special permission from superior officers to take that shot. Third - That was not just to stop a suicidal person. That was a standoff with an armed individual that was pointing a gun at other people as well as himself. He may have also been suicidal, but soon as he points the gun at others he becomes a threat to the public at large. The force employed by the sniper was authorized because it was justified to prevent the danger of serious bodily injury or death to the general public. That’s a completely different situation than a mere suicide. And before you go there - “Suicide by cop” isn’t really suicide. It’s a bad guy threatening violence on others to invoke a known outcome. From the “defenders” point of view, the use of deadly force was to prevent serious injury or death to themself or another, not to stop a suicidal person from completing the act. Just like stopping a “suicide bomber” - from a use of force standpoint, you are not using deadly force to stop someone from successfully completing suicide. You are preventing a deadly attack on the public.

so every 2 years we will need to pay to take all of these courses and qualifications, submit the app with all references, prints, pictures and whatever else was on that list that we will need. Gonna cost over 500 bucks before we are done with this bullshit. I am disabled. I dont have that kind of money every 2 years. I will take the money and donate to whatever organization is going to sue the shit out of these assholes. We also get to pay for the unlimited litigation fees these assholes have caused us to pursue, and they can use OUR money to hire as many lawyers as they need. Tyranny at its finest. This state sucks. Vote them out!

You are right. Apologies. I was just dumbfounded - and I don’t like seeing bad info that someone may follow, especially when it’s something this serious, not be corrected.

I think we need to enact Safe Lawmaking and Proficiency Qualification statutes requiring that anyone who wants to work in the New Jersey Legislature needs to pass several tests. If they can't demonstrate an ability to write a law that makes sense, they can't run for office.

Jesus… Deadly force can also stop littering, speeding, jaywalking and shoplifting. Doesn’t mean you are permitted to do it!

The example you gave has nothing to do with that, the shooters actions were to stop something else. I believe that would be considered deadly force in ALL places.

Dude, just give up this stupid quest of yours to be right. You are obviously ignorant to the facts and making yourself look like a fool. Kinda wondering why you are stuck on this incredibly improbable scenario like Rain Man and rejecting the contributions to this thread made by an actual expert . That was a rhetorical question, please do not feel compelled to answer it because it will not be responded to. Just accept the fact that you are wrong and move on. I think we are done here discussing your absurd claim that deadly force is appropriate to prevent suicide. It was a ridiculous premise to begin with. Seriously, let it go and if you can't, then go hire Evan Nappan for a proper legal answer that will straighten you out. That would be the prudent thing to do before you go out looking to prevent suicides with deadly force.

I don’t understand the facepalm for this one. Fairly standard use of force language. No. You can not use deadly force to prevent suicide. Nowhere in the quoted text on section A is deadly force mentioned. Merely “force”. There are other types of force that one can use, not just deadly. Physical presence, constructive authority, physical force, mechanical force, or enhanced mechanical force (all of which are considered a lower level of force and deadly) can be used to prevent suicide, if appropriate and applicable. Nowhere in the quotes text of section B is suicide mentioned. It only refers to “harm upon another” - not self. No it doesn’t. That is not what it says. Yes. Any firing of a firearm - even a miss or a “warning shot” (which are expressly forbidden) is considered deadly force. However, scenario you described has absolutely nothing to do with the quoted section of the UoF guideline from a practical standpoint. An individual threatening suicide can become a deadly force threat if they threaten to harm another with serious bodily injury or death and are armed with a weapon, such as a firearm, that is capable of doing so.

I dont know if it will do any good, but I just wrote a long letter to the Supreme Court detailing what they are doing to us in NJ and disregarding Our rights and their Bruen decision. Maybe we should all write at this point.

After getting my PA CCW permit, good for 5 years, for $20 in 20 minutes and approved in 1 day, I have tasted freedom and I like it! FUCK NJ! FPM & FMP! We all know the dems cheated in the last election and the truth is that Phil Murphy in no more our rightfully elected Governor than Biden is our rightfully elected president! We are no better than a banana republic, a third world country about to lose EVERYTHING!

Murphy ALMOST lost until they "FOUND" a bunch of bergen county mail in votes. He even recognized that fact he almost lost and said he would do better. He lied.

I would wave them goodbye and say have a nice trip before I even thought about using my gun and risking everything....

So if I read this right, I am to use deadly force to stop a person from killing or hurting themselves? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE IDIOTS?

"Substantially similar" is good enough as GFH has been using this course for retired PD for years. If it was good enough all these years then it is good enough now. I'll wait for guidance from Anthony and my lawyer before changing anything.

You’re right. That is deadly force. If they live, it’s also aggravated assault. If they die, it’s murder. That’s probably universally in the US. You’re out of your mind if you think that whacking someone in the head with a bat is an appropriate response to someone threatening suicide. So what? If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. But she doesn’t, so she’s still my aunt (maybe not a great comparison for 2023, but you know what I mean). There is no exemption. You are not permitted to use deadly force to prevent suicide. I have stopped more than a few myself. I am sorry you had to experience that. It’s a lonely, terrible, and hopeless feeling staring at someone ready to jump, swing, stab, or shoot themselves and trying to talk them out of it. But never once have I had the thought - “I know, let’s shoot them!”

Nov 22. But also most of the Qualls meet the criteria.

I just got off the phone with ny local pd. I do not have to redo the training

"They" all lie.

call it what it is....there are always whores in every industry.........omo.

I want to know if all this will apply to retired cops also. Are they going to have to lay out all this cash to carry like us? Or will they be given special status as usual. I shouldnt have to pay to use my Constitutional Right. This is almost worse than "justifiable need". My blood is boiling.

I really wish alot of these "2a friendly" gun ranges would make the qualification a bit cheaper or give discounts to those that did their first one there.

This is what the law actually says: (2) A person who obtained a permit pursuant to this section prior to the first day of the seventh month following the date of enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.) and which permit is not scheduled to expire until at least one year following the enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.) shall comply with the training requirement established pursuant to this subsection no later than the first day of the tenth month following the date of enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.). I think there can be two interpretations here. 1. "Pursuant to this section" could mean only the police chief issued permits. This is likely where GFH's reasoning is from. 2. If you interpret "Pursuant to this section" as including judge issued permits, and your permit has more than a year's validity, then yes, you will have to re-qualify and take the new training. I am leaning toward 2. due to the nuances in this wording: "a permit pursuant to this section" vs "the training requirement established pursuant to this subsection." They seem to be talking about the entire section as to permits issued which included judge issued permits. Ultimately though, the AG will have to clarify this, and undoubtedly there will (and should) be court challenges. I will be taking the revised shooting course, just to be on the safe side.

could they possibly type that out in any more of a non-direct way? sheesh......

Gun for hire is saying you are good if your permit was issued before 12/22/22. Reddit is saying it's everyone post bruen that needs to requalify and siting this. (2) A person who obtained a permit pursuant to this section prior to the first day of the seventh month following the date of enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.) and which permit is not scheduled to expire until at least one year following the enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.) shall comply with the training requirement established pursuant to this subsection no later than the first day of the tenth month following the date of enactment of P.L.2022, c.131 (C.2C:58-4.2 et al.). https://casetext.com/statute/new-jersey-statutes/title-2c-the-new-jersey-code-of-criminal-justice/chapter-2c58-registration-of-manufacturers-and-wholesale-dealers-of-firearms/section-2c58-4-permits-to-carry-handguns

Am I crazy or is that what it says?

Going to have to wait for the lawyers to clear that one up. An asterisk at the end of a form may not be legally binding. Don't get me wrong as I really do not want to pay for a holster draw class just to take a qualification I passed less than a year ago so I hope that anyone who already has a permit doesn't have to do any of this till renewal.

Not sure why my comment disappeared. Here is it again. Thomas Jefferson gave us the instructions on clearing these types in infestations on July 4 1776. James Madison gave us the means to do it on December 15 1791.

Practically every section of NJ's firearms laws are in violation of the 2A. I'd love to see the state try to provide "historical analogs" that existed at the time of the founding or of incorporation for all existing NJ gun laws.

where in the 2A does it say anything like this.......I'm ignorant.....tell me please.........omo....and how will folks be notified if they have to test again....we shot HQC1 which is more rounds than required.....so....do we get credit for 10.

Well, sure. Just like all of NJ's gun laws. We need to beg the state for permission to even purchase a firearm. That's why such a small percentage of people in this state own firearms. It is absolutely by design.

Yes. Its says to KILL THEM before they KILL THEMSELVES!

on point.

actually c could use explanation too. sounds to me that they've left that open to be awfully subjective......

We pay these cops salary. They get to qualify for free...but we pay for it. Why do we have to pay to qualify?. The police should qualify us for free too. It costs around 500 bucks now when all said and done. That is some bullshit. They are trying to make this so hard and expensive that people wont do it. Vote them all out.

The way I read it is that if you have a permit that has been issued in the last 2 years and went through all the required steps you dont need classroom or training again for renewal. Like not having to take the driving test again for renewing your drivers license. Thats how I read it.

You know they are full of shit when they lie in the first sentence. Introduction: Use of Force Training for Civilians Unlike an active duty law enforcement officer, private citizens have no responsibilities to protect the public. https://www.alternet.org/2022/06/supreme-court-cops-protect-individuals

They believe Firearms = Power and they want us powerless........has nothin' to do with self protection or the Constitution...omo.

Other states have not been allowed to be infested by tyrants, yet.

Since we both have PA resident LTCFs, after arriving we usually go to a mirror in the house and laugh at ourselves hysterically while having our first drink.

atco closed. for good. sucks. i don't believe there are any decent dragstrips in nj now. fuckers. https://6abc.com/atco-dragway-closing-camden-county-new-jersey-jackson-road-why-is/13520196/ i haven't been in a loooonnggg time...but it feels like a gut punch.......

Again. My explanation has little to do with NJ law. I am simply explaining how deadly force can be used to stop a suicide , period. The poster questioned why would an exception such as use of deadly physical force to stop a suicide be put in a law as of its an oxymoron to use such force. Remember that in some places a chokehold is now considered deadly physical force. Knocking someone out with bat to the head is considered in some places deadly physical force . Deadly physical force can stop a suicide . That’s why it might be written into a law to stop a suicide.

You have no idea what you are talking about . Here is one example

V8s in general will soon be extinct.

The qualification course won't change its going to be the training requirements ie class room or online