"Use of Deadly Physical Force"

[bulpup 98]

holy crap that is a fucked up story

[coldsolderjoint 84]

Gonna chime in with one little tidbit here.

 

Many of the states that allow lethal force to defend your home, also grant immunity to civil suit if the shooting is found justified. NJ law does not make someone who uses lethal force in self defense immune to civil suit.

 

Even if you shot someone in self defense in the home, and the shooting is found to be justified, can fully expect the guy's momma to show up in court and sue you for half a million bucks because he was a good boy who was gonna turn his life around and go back to college, right after he got done burglarizing your house and raping your wife, that is. Heck, at the end of all that in NJ, you will probably be wishing you just let the guy kill you and steal all your stuff

 

 

Many, many years ago, one of my co-workers stopped a carload of Shittums in a stolen vehicle, My Moronic Friend, decided he was going to reach into the car and shut off the engine..instead of ordering the 'tumm driver to do so. Driver rols up the window, trapping Tony's arm ,nd drives off with him hanging on the door. As the 'tumm tries to crush him against parked cars, my coworker fires 3 rounds. 2 miss, and the 3rd one went through the Scumbag's Biceps. Now I dont think anyone here would say that wasnt a good shoot correct? Bad guy was ACTIVELY trying to squish the cop, and yes i know he screwed up by putting hiself in that position..argument for another day. 45 days later we got a Notice of Intent to Sue, with a return address of Bed X XXX County Correctional Facility Medical Wing. Luckily the judge at the county threw it out once he read the case file..but it could have gone either way. I Know of cases where bad guy breaks into a home, and the homeowner's dog bitse the crap out of him..and the HOMEOWNER GETS SUED AND LOST. There is NO garuntee no matter how good a shoot of not geting sued.

 

Lol.. didn't something similar to this happen in Newark not too long ago. Only a few years?

[KpdPipes 388]

Gonna chime in with one little tidbit here.

 

Many of the states that allow lethal force to defend your home, also grant immunity to civil suit if the shooting is found justified. NJ law does not make someone who uses lethal force in self defense immune to civil suit.

 

Even if you shot someone in self defense in the home, and the shooting is found to be justified, can fully expect the guy's momma to show up in court and sue you for half a million bucks because he was a good boy who was gonna turn his life around and go back to college, right after he got done burglarizing your house and raping your wife, that is. Heck, at the end of all that in NJ, you will probably be wishing you just let the guy kill you and steal all your stuff

 

 

Many, many years ago, one of my co-workers stopped a carload of Shittums in a stolen vehicle, My Moronic Friend, decided he was going to reach into the car and shut off the engine..instead of ordering the 'tumm driver to do so. Driver rols up the window, trapping Tony's arm ,nd drives off with him hanging on the door. As the 'tumm tries to crush him against parked cars, my coworker fires 3 rounds. 2 miss, and the 3rd one went through the Scumbag's Biceps. Now I dont think anyone here would say that wasnt a good shoot correct? Bad guy was ACTIVELY trying to squish the cop, and yes i know he screwed up by putting hiself in that position..argument for another day. 45 days later we got a Notice of Intent to Sue, with a return address of Bed X XXX County Correctional Facility Medical Wing. Luckily the judge at the county threw it out once he read the case file..but it could have gone either way. I Know of cases where bad guy breaks into a home, and the homeowner's dog bitse the crap out of him..and the HOMEOWNER GETS SUED AND LOST. There is NO garuntee no matter how good a shoot of not geting sued.

 

Lol.. didn't something similar to this happen in Newark not too long ago. Only a few years?

 

I think so. Ours was back around 1993 or 4.

[NJgunowner86 0]

Gonna chime in with one little tidbit here.

 

Many of the states that allow lethal force to defend your home, also grant immunity to civil suit if the shooting is found justified. NJ law does not make someone who uses lethal force in self defense immune to civil suit.

 

Even if you shot someone in self defense in the home, and the shooting is found to be justified, can fully expect the guy's momma to show up in court and sue you for half a million bucks because he was a good boy who was gonna turn his life around and go back to college, right after he got done burglarizing your house and raping your wife, that is. Heck, at the end of all that in NJ, you will probably be wishing you just let the guy kill you and steal all your stuff

 

 

Many, many years ago, one of my co-workers stopped a carload of Shittums in a stolen vehicle, My Moronic Friend, decided he was going to reach into the car and shut off the engine..instead of ordering the 'tumm driver to do so. Driver rols up the window, trapping Tony's arm ,nd drives off with him hanging on the door. As the 'tumm tries to crush him against parked cars, my coworker fires 3 rounds. 2 miss, and the 3rd one went through the Scumbag's Biceps. Now I dont think anyone here would say that wasnt a good shoot correct? Bad guy was ACTIVELY trying to squish the cop, and yes i know he screwed up by putting hiself in that position..argument for another day. 45 days later we got a Notice of Intent to Sue, with a return address of Bed X XXX County Correctional Facility Medical Wing. Luckily the judge at the county threw it out once he read the case file..but it could have gone either way. I Know of cases where bad guy breaks into a home, and the homeowner's dog bitse the crap out of him..and the HOMEOWNER GETS SUED AND LOST. There is NO garuntee no matter how good a shoot of not geting sued.

 

Yep.

[dave545 15]

i just finished a criminal justice course with an ex prosecutor for NJ that had over 300+ trials all murder and he said if you fear for YOUR LIFE or ANOTHER PERSONS LIFE than you can use deadly force but not if you are protecting property and do not shoot them if they are running away. He also said that if you do shoot them try to make sure that you kill them or they will most likely try and sue you so if you do decide to shoot shoot to kill. this was all of his advice on the matter so you can use deadly force defending your life or someone elses life

[tommy3rd 132]

He also said that if you do shoot them try to make sure that you kill them or they will most likely try and sue you so if you do decide to shoot shoot to kill.

I would empty the magazine but I will not eject and reload.

"I was so scared i couldn't stop shooting. i just kept on pulling the trigger until it stopped firing."

will that defense work?

[Malsua 1,422]

He also said that if you do shoot them try to make sure that you kill them or they will most likely try and sue you so if you do decide to shoot shoot to kill.

I would empty the magazine but I will not eject and reload.

"I was so scared i couldn't stop shooting. i just kept on pulling the trigger until it stopped firing."

will that defense work?

 

Shoot to stop the threat and don't talk about the shooting without council present.

 

"I'm too shook up to talk, I would feel more comfortable with legal council present"

 

Leave it at that.

[KpdPipes 388]

I'll say it again.

 

#1. YOU DO NOT "SHOOT TO KILL" You ONLY shoot to "Stop the Threat" Do I need to Write it in Crayon on foreheads?? YOU SHOOT ONLY TO STOP THE THREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

#2. The ONLY THING YOU SAY is something on the lines of. "I'm sorry, I know you guys have a job to do, im not trying to make it harder, but I am NOT comfortable talking about this without some legal represntation present. Please allow me to contact an attorney before any discussion of this incident." be Polite, Give the Cops ALL of your Identification information, but NOTHING MORE until you have counsel present. I AM a cop, and that is EXACTLY what I am going to tell the responding guys if im involved in a defensive shooting.

[GoNRA 12]

i just finished a criminal justice course with an ex prosecutor for NJ that had over 300+ trials all murder and he said if you fear for YOUR LIFE or ANOTHER PERSONS LIFE than you can use deadly force but not if you are protecting property and do not shoot them if they are running away. He also said that if you do shoot them try to make sure that you kill them or they will most likely try and sue you so if you do decide to shoot shoot to kill. this was all of his advice on the matter so you can use deadly force defending your life or someone elses life

 

I was taught the same thing, maybe these older guys were taught different back in the day

[dave545 15]

1

[Malsua 1,422]

#1. YOU DO NOT "SHOOT TO KILL" You ONLY shoot to "Stop the Threat" Do I need to Write it in Crayon on foreheads?? YOU SHOOT ONLY TO STOP THE THREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

YOU SAY THAT YOU SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT but in reality you are shooting to kill

 

You're shooting to make the bad guy stop what he's doing. If one shot, poorly aimed, buzzes his ear and he stops, your goal is achieved, stop shooting.

 

You have to get it through your head and completely wrap yourself around it and embrace concept thoroughly.

 

What you're talking about is shot placement. You are shooting for the most effective shot placement which also are the same spots that kill. Death during a self defense shooting can occur, and so it goes but your predetermined intent must always be to stop the threat. If you've decided already that you will kill anyone that enters your home with ill inent, two things are going to happen. First, if a home invasion event occurs you're going to kill someone and second, you're going to ruin your life whether it be behind bars or crushing legal fees and civil judgments.

 

You have to understand that how you think and how you reinforce your thoughts will train your brain. In the heat of the moment, you may keep shooting after the guy ran because you predetermined "No somnavbitch that enters my house leaves alive" and that will spell your doom.

[Drew 4]

Anything can happen in the heat of the moment. With the heart pounding, brain in overdrive and senses on ultra high, who can truly say what they would do. I have this idea in my head that I would only take two shots center mass and then reassess the situation. I would hope two shots of .40 EFMJ would stop any assailant. With that being said I may only take one shot as I

[Malsua 1,422]

Anything can happen in the heat of the moment. With the heart pounding, brain in overdrive and senses on ultra high, who can truly say what they would do.:

 

That's the thing. You need to drill it into your head "I shoot to stop the threat". When the heat of the moment happens, what you've trained or thought will resurface. It's like anything else you practice for. When the time comes that it matters, conscious thought takes a back seat to trained reactions. If you've got it in your head that no one comes in your door and lives, chances are you're going to go over the top and commit murder.

 

This is not to say we all will have rational thoughts or be completely logical but you need to stack the deck in your favor. You need to get it in your head why you are shooting and if "go time" ever happens, you won't overreact and ruin your life.

[dave545 15]

1

[kenw 293]

Settle down, guys. Remember where you are.

 

There are nearly 1,000 registered members here, all of whom have access to the threads. There are about 100 regular participants. If you think none the remaining 900 or so aren

[djg0770 481]

On top of what KenW said already, this subsection "NJ Gun Laws" does not require forum membership in order for it to be viewed.

 

I had some comments all ready for a bear hunt thread and I stopped short because I don't want anyone to twist my words around to their advantage. My kids do that enough already.

[HowlingStatic 0]

The statute is not as bad as I would have imagined, however this bit is odious:

 

The actor demanded that the intruder disarm, surrender or withdraw, and the intruder refused to do so.

 

You can imagine being surprised by a guy with a gun in hand in the middle of the night and not having time to have a conversation with him, given the present threat to your life.

 

I fail to understand what part of "don't enter dwellings that aren't yours, and into whom you have not been invited" is difficult to understand, and recognizing this fairly timeless concept, how it is in any way reasonable to assume that, being woken up by a home invader in a ski mask standing in your living room with a shotgun, having a bit of a chat is the best possible course of action at this point.

[djg0770 481]

I fail to understand what part of "don't enter dwellings that aren't yours, and into whom you have not been invited" is difficult to understand, and recognizing this fairly timeless concept, how it is in any way reasonable to assume that, being woken up by a home invader in a ski mask standing in your living room with a shotgun, having a bit of a chat is the best possible course of action at this point.

 

You are SUPPOSED to just run away and call 911 and wait for the police to come and save you. After all, the actor is just a misunderstood individual who was just about to turn his life around and this was his last desperate act before he won the lottery, quit the gang, and become president... :|

[KpdPipes 388]

#1. YOU DO NOT "SHOOT TO KILL" You ONLY shoot to "Stop the Threat" Do I need to Write it in Crayon on foreheads?? YOU SHOOT ONLY TO STOP THE THREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

YOU SAY THAT YOU SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT but in reality you are shooting to kill

 

 

And if You Articulate that you are "Shooting to kill" the family's Attorney is goint to take everything you own. You are NOT Shooting to kill...If you hit the guy once and he goes down and stops attacking, are you going to Continue shooting until he is dead?

[tommy3rd 132]

You are NOT Shooting to kill...If you hit the guy once and he goes down and stops attacking, are you going to Continue shooting until he is dead?

I think part of the problem here is that you are looking at it from a LEO's point of view, while some of us are looking at it from a regular Joe Schmoe law abiding citizen who's about to get victimized point of view. I have a feeling this situation of "self defense" would not even come up if our castle doctrine is like some other states' doctrine. I'm curious about the statistics on burglaries in states where shoot to kill is the norm when someone tries to rob a place.

[KpdPipes 388]

You are NOT Shooting to kill...If you hit the guy once and he goes down and stops attacking, are you going to Continue shooting until he is dead?

I think part of the problem here is that you are looking at it from a LEO's point of view, while some of us are looking at it from a regular Joe Schmoe law abiding citizen who's about to get victimized point of view. I have a feeling this situation of "self defense" would not even come up if our castle doctrine is like some other states' doctrine. I'm curious about the statistics on burglaries in states where shoot to kill is the norm when someone tries to rob a place.

 

 

You are 100% correct. HOWEVER the reality is that this IS NJ, and there is no Immunity for legitimate SD shootings. So you guys go right ahead, and use whatever terms you want on the spur of the moment. And when the Shittum's family's attorney paints you as some sort of ravening murderous scumbag who was just looking to kill in front of a typical NJ jury composed of Section 8 people who will sympathise more with the criminal then you, Dont come back here bitching.

[NJgunowner86 0]

You are NOT Shooting to kill...If you hit the guy once and he goes down and stops attacking, are you going to Continue shooting until he is dead?

I think part of the problem here is that you are looking at it from a LEO's point of view, while some of us are looking at it from a regular Joe Schmoe law abiding citizen who's about to get victimized point of view. I have a feeling this situation of "self defense" would not even come up if our castle doctrine is like some other states' doctrine. I'm curious about the statistics on burglaries in states where shoot to kill is the norm when someone tries to rob a place.

 

 

You are 100% correct. HOWEVER the reality is that this IS NJ, and there is no Immunity for legitimate SD shootings. So you guys go right ahead, and use whatever terms you want on the spur of the moment. And when the Shittum's family's attorney paints you as some sort of ravening murderous scumbag who was just looking to kill in front of a typical NJ jury composed of Section 8 people who will sympathise more with the criminal then you, Dont come back here bitching.

 

Actually, we won't have to worry about them coming back here bitching about it. When Shittum's mama's attorney gets done with the jury, the homeowner will be so god damned broke from the lawsuit they won't even be able to afford internet access anymore

 

Rambo it up guys, keep beatin' those chests. I hope for all your sakes, that your house never gets broken into. Because you WILL find yourself in a world of shit acting and speaking the way you are now. It's easy to talk tough on the internet, it's a whole different story when you're dead asleep and someone smashes the back window in to rob/attack you.

[67gtonut 847]

I am going to voice my opinion here....

 

Fact of the matter is ...... no one here knows how they will react in a home intrusion.....

 

We can all talk tough and say I will "shoot to kill", or I "know the right way to handle" the situation. Reality is ..... your world will change when you point a weapon at another Human Being, and have to make the split second to possibly take a life.....

 

I am sure Kpd will chime in on this, or ask any police officer you know that has had to do it.... Without training..... it will not be a natural thing to do....

 

I am not going to say what I would do...... but as some of the guys that know me well, know how much I believe in training...... I tend not to buy another gun..... I instead, sign up for another course.

 

Although this is not a bad conversation..... We still need to be careful how we word things here...... This is becoming a very popular forum for people who live in this state, and I think we will be growing by leaps and bounds, so we need make sure we represent NJ Gun owners properly, and some of the comments almost sound like "manslaughter" intentions..... so let's keep it real, and not let the "Ninja's" lead this thread in a poor direction....

 

I hope I dont upset anyone, but I just care for this place Maks has kindly provided for us, and I want to make sure we keep his "home" in good order....

[tommy3rd 132]

Rambo it up guys, keep beatin' those chests. I hope for all your sakes, that your house never gets broken into. Because you WILL find yourself in a world of **** acting and speaking the way you are now.

F Rambo! mob style - no body, no evidence (i've been watching too much tv)!

[bulpup 98]

I have to say the thread has taken a much better tone than I thought it would.

 

I am fully on the side of those that do NOT want to do any harm other than that which is necessary to protect myself or my family.

 

I come from a family of mental heatlh practitioners and was hearing discussions between my parents about the latest mental patients they saw and what they did from the age of 7. Due to that I am very much in fear of plugging a guy simply because he was off his meds and thought my house was the train station (it happened to one of my mothers' patients, the home owner was not a gun owner so there was no question as to the outcome).

 

But seriously, the point of owning a handgun started with protecting myself and my wife, not to kill anyone. If that is the end result so be it and I am not afraid of a lawsuit despite its potential for financial ruin from stupidity on the jury's part. I believe in myself. I would DEFINITLEY be shooting to stop the threat, but my training would make that a shot at center mass. I believe that is what the LEO's have been saying and have been taught.

 

But there is no way in hell I am going to pump rounds into a guy so that he can't testify in a civil case. That is wrong on so many levels, and if there is anyone that does not agree you might want to check yourself. It isn't about money.

 

I would also like to add that the story of the cop getting sued for shooting a man trying to crush him with his car was thrown out of court. Perhaps there is a margin where it could have gone either way, but you can't read that story and say the guy got sued. He didn't. That is what I expect to happen in court; the judge thinks.

[dave545 15]

ya i agree with you guys it would be no fun to kill someone and if that situation does come up it would really suck but is it safe to say hear for all of us that we hope that we get to our guns before they grab theirs if we are forced into that situation?

[bbk 188]

A lot of what I would say has been said. And while this thread is about the application of necessary force to make a threat no longer a threat, maybe this same discussion should allow us to explore other options of deescalation?

 

And by that I mean becoming a soft target (or as soft of one as possible) through application of different methods relating to OPSEC/PERSEC/INFOSEC/etc. Whether that means not placing boxes for large purchases (like a TV) out on the corner for the waste disposal, or leaving the garage door open (even if someone is home). Also to be included would be home security solutions like an alarm system or even a simple deterrent like motion-sensing lights (or even more simply, locking the doors, and pulling the shades when not around).

 

Of course there are no guarantees, and if an event were to escalate-- that is the point of the discussion pertaining to the OP. All I'm saying is that along with the logical/rational decision-making involved with a possible 'bad-day' situation, there are plenty of things that anybody can do right now that might lessen the chance of the unfortunate to occur... and as much thought should be put into that to gain the full spectrum of being a responsible individual.

[GoNRA 12]

A way to help is by having a recording, if you hear a window break or a door being kicked in, immediately grab the gun and your phone and lock your door. Call the police, everything you say will be recorded, make sure you say in a clear loud tone, that you are armed and willing to defend yourself, and you are on the phone with the police. If he kicks open your door, unload the clip on him.

 

However, if you have kids, the video says to leave your room with gun,phone, and flashlight. Find family members try and get them all in the same room and make sure they are safe, then lock the door and call police ect..

[KpdPipes 388]

I have to say the thread has taken a much better tone than I thought it would.

 

I am fully on the side of those that do NOT want to do any harm other than that which is necessary to protect myself or my family.

 

I come from a family of mental heatlh practitioners and was hearing discussions between my parents about the latest mental patients they saw and what they did from the age of 7. Due to that I am very much in fear of plugging a guy simply because he was off his meds and thought my house was the train station (it happened to one of my mothers' patients, the home owner was not a gun owner so there was no question as to the outcome).

 

But seriously, the point of owning a handgun started with protecting myself and my wife, not to kill anyone. If that is the end result so be it and I am not afraid of a lawsuit despite its potential for financial ruin from stupidity on the jury's part. I believe in myself. I would DEFINITLEY be shooting to stop the threat, but my training would make that a shot at center mass. I believe that is what the LEO's have been saying and have been taught.

 

But there is no way in hell I am going to pump rounds into a guy so that he can't testify in a civil case. That is wrong on so many levels, and if there is anyone that does not agree you might want to check yourself. It isn't about money.

 

I would also like to add that the story of the cop getting sued for shooting a man trying to crush him with his car was thrown out of court. Perhaps there is a margin where it could have gone either way, but you can't read that story and say the guy got sued. He didn't. That is what I expect to happen in court; the judge thinks.

 

he DID get Sued..the Complaint was filed, and went to the Court for Reviwe where the Assignment Judge found it had no merit. The Assignment Judge could EASILY have said "Let's let the Jury Decide" And, frankly if it had been the OTHER judge who works in that office it WOULD have gone to trial. Yes my friend didnt get sued. Yet the Guy in my town who's dog attacked and bit a home intruder, INSIDE the home did, and the Jury awarded the Shittum $20K. Judges are Attorneys, and (Not to knock them) Their standards of "Legitimate" dont always coincide with what Joe Citizen thinks.

[Malsua 1,422]

If he kicks open your door, unload the clip on him.

 

 

8 rounds from an M1 Garand is probably overkill.