Extra paperwork when applying for FID and Pistol Permit

[Babaganoosh 192]

So I went into my police dept today and got the paperwork for the FID and pistol permits. They also gave me a 2 page questionaire that I know shouldnt be required (thanks to this forum).

 

Being that I don't even have the FID card yet I don't really want to rock the boat on this one because it would be better off for me to get that stuff and then fight it when I go for another pistol permit and have the FID under my belt. In my opinion that would be the smart way to do it.

 

However being the type of person I am, it makes my blood boil and I want to march right in there and throw the law in their face and make a stink. However that generally isn't the way to get things done that you want to accomplish.

 

Scanner is acting weird but I scanned the pages and will try to attach them. They look to be a little small. Might have to find a program to resize them if need be.

 

Ok, they say the file is too big to attach.

 

 

So.......What should I do about this?

[matty 810]

What're some of the questions?

[Babaganoosh 192]

Typed it out since the scanner is acting weird.

 

 

ok they are asking for all the places I have lived in the past 5 years

 

If I ever had an alias

 

Requests info about military if applicable including type of discharge

 

Asks if I have ever been found guilty of driving recklessly or its equivelent or if I have had a DUI or DWI

 

Asks if there is anyone on the premises who would be against me having a firearm

 

It asks me to indicate all firearms I own/possess by caliber make model and serial number

 

Then page 2 is reasons for purchase

 

Target

 

Where do you intend to use this firearm

Do you shoot in competiton

Type of competition

 

Hunting

 

Do you have any experience hunting

Are you familiar with the fish and game laws of the state of NJ

Do you own a valid hunting license

if yes give the number of the license

 

Collector

 

How many firearms do you now own?

Type of collection (black powder, war relics, etc)

 

Other

 

Explain_____________________________________

 

Type or gauge of firearm you intend to purchase

Length (if handgun)

 

Do you have any experience in handling the firearm you intend to purchase

 

Have you ever successfully completed a firearms safety course given by a qualified instructor.

[Guest]

What you need to do is call the NJSP.

 

http://www.njsp.org/divorg/invest/firea ... -unit.html

 

(609) 882-2000 ext 6619

 

Ask for LT COl Gilbert. He wont come to the phone, but one of the DT's will.

Explain to them what is going on, tell them extra forms are being attached to state issued forms.

 

Give them all of the info, person who took the app, name of detective, phone numbers, dates, etc.

 

Its not about you rocking the boat, its about what is legal and what is not...dont buy it.

 

Fight like hell. Most times when you fight them on this, the cave because they know they are controverting the law.

 

I threatend to sue my town, called the NJSP, then went back and applied for 10 permits and everyone apologized to me for the 'problem and misunderstanding'...

Dont buy it man, be mad as hell...dont be a sheep...

[PK90 3,573]

+1

 

Man-Up and call the NJAG Office.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Think I should give them a chance by talking to the detective and letting him know that I know it's not right or just go ahead and call the SP and contact the AG?

[tommy3rd 132]

Maybe it's best to settle it locally first. Talk to the detective in charge or even the chief. If you get the NJSP or AG involved, the town PD might delay your stuff the next time you apply for permits out of spite.

[Bob B 103]

Those questions are clearly designed to give them an excuse to not issue the permit. For example, if you don't have experience with the firearm you intend to purchase, then they can argue that you are a public safety risk.

 

Don't fill out the forms.

 

I would start by turning in only what is required. When they ask for the other forms, just tell them that they are not mandatory and see if they capitulate. After that, then, yes, talk to the officer responsible or even the Chief. You might get them to change their policy for everyone.

 

Get yourself a voice recorder and record everything. They sell them at Staples. After incorporation, things like this will be civil rights violations under Title 42, 1983 and could possibly be considered crimes under Title 18, 241 and 242 -- but only after incorporation of the 2A.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Maybe it's best to settle it locally first. Talk to the detective in charge or even the chief. If you get the NJSP or AG involved, the town PD might delay your stuff the next time you apply for permits out of spite.

 

 

Belmar is kinda like that. Although we get a huge influx of people in the summer it is quite the small town. From what I hear everything from the PD to the Mayor is intertwined. The good ole boys it seems. Hell the mayor even had some guys arrested for whistling at him when they thought he was a chick when him and his wife drove past on bicycles. (he had long hair at the time). He also made it illegal to give the middle finger. The ACLU had to pay a visit and turn that one around. Anyone rememeber when he also said some bullshit about staten islanders and ended up in some trouble in the papers? He had to go visit staten island for the day and issue an apology. From what I have read in the comments section of the local paper (online) a lot of people have said bad shit about the chief, especially in regards to him being the mayors pitbull to go after people who have pissed him off. Now I can't quote this for fact, it's just what I have heard. If thats the type of mentality I am dealing with then I may be screwed if I try to broach this subject. Cops really don't like it when you question their knowledge and/or authority on things.

[Babaganoosh 192]

I do have to say that the detective was very helpful and didn't seem to be anti me getting a firearm. He was friendly and informative. I was expecting a different attitude especially after reading the horror stories on here.

[Maksim 1,504]

As the folks above has stated, I would politely decline. Call the AG if they refuse to take your app.

 

I see no issues with asking basic info about where you lived, etc, however i do have an issue asking to list all the firearms you own, and how you plan to use them.

[Sigman 41]

I believe Jersey City is in the same boat with multiple forms. I don't know if things have changed there, but last year there was someone who posted the additional forms that they required. It seemed like a real PITA to get a FID there.

[Guest]

Maybe it's best to settle it locally first. Talk to the detective in charge or even the chief. If you get the NJSP or AG involved, the town PD might delay your stuff the next time you apply for permits out of spite.

 

I would say go to the detective tell him you have read the law (and you actually need to read the law) and these forms are not allowed. Fill out and attempt to turn in only what is required by law.

See what he/she says, then tell them you will be calling the NJSP investigation division and inquiring with them. Tell them of the recent AG note that stated expressly that the local towns are not allowed to make up laws or extra forms or limit permits.

If you make a big stink, they will not delay your stuff. The squeaky wheel gets the oil ALL the time...

 

I bet most guys in the LEO family would agree with me in general when dealing with the government.

[Guest]

I believe Jersey City is in the same boat with multiple forms. I don't know if things have changed there, but last year there was someone who posted the additional forms that they required. It seemed like a real PITA to get a FID there.

 

 

Sig, people have told me that in JC permits are turned around in about 5 days due to all the attention on the city.

So it seems that they may have gotten some heat in a big way.

2 people have told me that they got their PP's in 5 days.

 

And they were regular "taxpayers"

[djg0770 481]

Maybe it's best to settle it locally first. Talk to the detective in charge or even the chief. If you get the NJSP or AG involved, the town PD might delay your stuff the next time you apply for permits out of spite.

 

 

Perhaps it's my nature, but I like to negotiate from a position of superior strength. I would call the NJSP first. This kind of stuff needs to STOP. By you refusing to submit the form, they may just delay your application. The advantage is that if you call the NJSP, you can spank them hard and then they might stop doing this to anyone else.

[tommy3rd 132]

Overwhelming and superior force is fine and dandy if you are fighting for your life or in a war. But remember, this is new jersey...It's all about politics. So, it takes money or ego stroking to get something done.

[Guest]

Overwhelming and superior force is fine and dandy if you are fighting for your life or in a war. But remember, this is new jersey...It's all about politics. So, it takes money or ego stroking to get something done.

 

 

You are missing the point, the guy is not asking for Giants staduim to be built in his yard, there is no need to politic and finesse or ego stroke to get what it your right. Wait at you own peril. No politician needs an 'ego stroke' to give this man his pistol permits within the law...

[Bob B 103]

The last time I applied for PPP's (6 of them) the forms were handed back to me because I did not fill out the SSN block. I politely told the clerk that it was not required and pointed to the statement on the forms stating exactly that. There was no argument. She accepted the forms without my SSN. When purchasing my last firearm, the clerk at the gun store asked me for my SSN for the NICS check. Same story. Unfortunately, this did not work when applying for my hunting license, but there is a specific law requiring it's collection as I later found out. I offer this simply as a couple of examples of how you might be able to go right around this obstacle without too much trouble.

[bulpup 98]

Overwhelming and superior force is fine and dandy if you are fighting for your life or in a war. But remember, this is new jersey...It's all about politics. So, it takes money or ego stroking to get something done.

 

 

You are missing the point, the guy is not asking for Giants staduim to be built in his yard, there is no need to politic and finesse or ego stroke to get what it your right. Wait at you own peril. No politician needs an 'ego stroke' to give this man his pistol permits within the law...

 

 

I agree. They are doing something outside of their legal boundries. You calling them on it IS a fully supported position. It means two things;

 

You know the law

and you take it seriously.

 

 

The OP's local PD likely knows this already and is using the additional form as a filter. If they haven't already been called on it they should be, and I bet they expect it. I suspect that many applicants either fill the forms out or quit and they like it that way, but they have to comply to the law if you call them on it.

[bry@n 195]

I would simply ask the guy that got the email from the AG for a copy. Bring it, along with your paperwork filled out down to the pd. When they ask about the forms (if they ask) just bring it up that they are not mandatory and if a discussion insues, just produce the AG doc...

 

Go on from there. Just be polite and keep your cool the entire time. If you get all heated and yelling, that will give them reason to question you..

[ChrisJM981 924]

I would start by turning in only what is required. When they ask for the other forms, just tell them that they are not mandatory and see if they capitulate.

 

Not allowed. The detective at the state police I spoke to was not aware of the statute and told me the departments can require what they want. Just a head's up for what you're dealing with. Have the statute on hand.

2C:58-3(f) "... There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter."

[Babaganoosh 192]

I would start by turning in only what is required. When they ask for the other forms, just tell them that they are not mandatory and see if they capitulate.

 

Not allowed. The detective at the state police I spoke to was not aware of the statute and told me the departments can require what they want. Just a head's up for what you're dealing with. Have the statute on hand.

2C:58-3(f) "... There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter."

 

So now you are saying they can have me fill the extra paperwork out?

[bulpup 98]

I would start by turning in only what is required. When they ask for the other forms, just tell them that they are not mandatory and see if they capitulate.

 

Not allowed. The detective at the state police I spoke to was not aware of the statute and told me the departments can require what they want. Just a head's up for what you're dealing with. Have the statute on hand.

2C:58-3(f) "... There shall be no conditions or requirements added to the form or content of the application, or required by the licensing authority for the issuance of a permit or identification card other than those that are specifically set forth in this chapter."

 

So now you are saying they can have me fill the extra paperwork out?

 

 

"Not Mandatory" implies that it is at their option.

"Not Allowed" is the key. They have no option, it is not up to them. It is not allowed.

 

 

 

This is the thing that is getting under my skin, (not that you would want to bring this up to your PD) - The actual forms have a number. STS-033 and SP 66. This is state and state police document ID number. This other form most likely does not. How could it? So where are they getting this form from? If they are making it up they KNOW it isn't part of the state regulations.

 

Look on the lower left side of the extra form they gave you. Is there any kind of doc number and maybe a rev date?

[ChrisJM981 924]

My town has an additional form as well. I dropped it off without it and nothing was said about their missing form. That was about a month ago so I'm going to assume they aren't going to call me looking for it.

 

Edit: I wrote to the Attorney General's Office on April 27th and I still have not received a response.

 

To whom it may concern,

 

I am trying to find out what information is permissible to be requested by a police department for a Firearms ID Card and pistol purchase permits. I live in the Borough of ******** in Bergen County. The police are requiring applicants to sign an information waiver allowing them to check an applicant

[Babaganoosh 192]

 

 

 

This is the thing that is getting under my skin, (not that you would want to bring this up to your PD) - The actual forms have a number. STS-033 and SP 66. This is state and state police document ID number. This other form most likely does not. How could it? So where are they getting this form from? If they are making it up they KNOW it isn't part of the state regulations.

 

Look on the lower left side of the extra form they gave you. Is there any kind of doc number and maybe a rev date?

 

 

Of course not. Its just 2 typed pages of questions. No number and no seal of the state or belmar.

[ChrisJM981 924]

Of course not. Its just 2 typed pages of questions. No number and no seal of the state or belmar.

 

This is the BS form my town wants filled out:

 

 

"I ______, do hereby authorize the Veterans Administration, United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, Military Reserves, all Law Enforcement Agencies, City, State and Federal Tax Bureaus,Welfare and Unemployment Services, Credit Bureaus, Schools, Universities, Physicians, Hospitals and other Institutions, to furnish the Borough of ******* Police Department with any and all available information and copies of records regarding me in order that they may determine whether my application for a Pistol Permit, Firearms I.D. Card or Pistol Carrying Permit, should be granted by the ******* Police Department.

 

I hereby release, discharge and exonerate the ******* Police Department, its agents and representatives, and any person so furnishing information from any and all liability of every nature and kind arising out of the furnishing, inspection or collection of such documents, records, and other information or the investigation made by the ******* Police Department."

 

It has a town seal and the Chief's name on the top. Good for him. I dropped of my paper work without it and nobody said anything. I'm guessing they know they can't require it. So don't sign it. And when the ask why you won't let them ask why you want a gun tell them by law they're not allowed to. When they say they can tell them "In God We Trust: All others bring data." Quote 2C:58-3 (f), which I have previously put posted, and that should end the conversation.

 

I wouldn't sign it out of principle, but it could possibly have legal ramifications later on down the road. "You put down target shooting on this questionnaire so why did you use it for home defense to shoot that poor knife wielding man who broke in your home through your child's window?" ...or some other hippie loving crap spewed from a prosecutor's mouth. You might want to look here for legal advice though http://www.njguns.com/lawyers.htm since I'm in no way qualified to give legal advice under any circumstance.