14.5" barrel w/perm muzzle device discussion (edited)

[Tactical Monkey 51]

For starters this is in the AR Discussion section so let's keep it on topic...

 

Please tell me what is wrong with a 14.5" lightweight mid-length gas system upper, with perm attached muzzle device to reach 16"...

 

Here's where I stand:

I have shot a middy and I prefer that to a 16" carbine gas system. I don't know if there is a notable difference between a 16" vs 14.5" middy, but since the perm attached muzzle device argument holds no water in Jersey (it's needed regardless of barrel length), why not get a 1.5" off the barrel? Muzzle velocity loss aside, any other drawback you can think of?

 

Regarding the LW profile, this build would be centered around a KISS mentality, with only potential addition being a LW optic (maybe a Aimpoint H-1). I tend to shoot more faster strings then slow fire, but with only a 100yrd range to shoot at, and a SHTF "realistic" engagement of <100 yards, groups opening up when the barrel gets hot are not really that big of an issue.

 

Lastly I'm thinking PWS FSC556 for the brake, since I have one already...

 

So I've been trying to come up with some decent cons, and have been unsuccessful so far. But before taking the plunge on a new upper I'd like to see what you guys have to say, and perhaps I'm missing something.

 

All opinions welcome...

[Shane45 807]

Well... since I think you would probably loose less than 50 fps, it really comes down to preference. If you like the mod enough to spend the money doing it, I see no down side.

[Old School 611]

Well... since I think you would probably loose less than 50 fps, it really comes down to preference. If you like the mod enough to spend the money doing it, I see no down side.

 

+1 on the velocity thing. Granted I shoot moderately loaded ammo... but I'm only pushing 2650 fps out of my 16" barrels when we're getting 2850 fps out of a 20" barrel. That being said with a 14.5" barrel I would expect about 2500 fps.

Now I don't want to stand in front of a 2500 fps bullet but as you reach out to a 100 yds you may have velocity and trajectory that is less than favorable.

[Tactical Monkey 51]

I understand that 5.56 effectiveness is largely based around muzzle velocity, but would 50-100 FPS truly impact it's performance at that range (5-100yrds)?

 

Thanks for the input.

[bbk 188]

Did you see the thread on M4C? , same exact question was asked over there.

I think it is an unique question to be asked though, especially in a state like NJ where we have to permanently attach the muzzle device regardless.

I think it would come down to "mission needs" and preference, in regards to a 14.5 vs 16. bkb, over at M4C, stated the general lengths if devices were on the barrel, "17.5" (16) and a 16.1 (14.5)." While it may not seem like a big difference, the extra inch+ can be worth it for those who are using their rifle for specific purposes.

I use my rifle as my main HD and SHTF firearm. Whether its in my house or just thinking of NJ generally, there are a lot of somewhat tight spaces. If it were allowed, I would have an 11 or 12'' SBR. Considering NJ doesn't allow SBRs, the fact that I can go 14.5'' w/ perm device (w/ OAL over 16.1) without any stamp and its legal regardless is 1) good enough for me and 2) the best I can get anyway.

As you pointed out, most engagements, whether its SHTF or HD, are going to be within 100m (if not within spitting distance). So, the lost muzzle velocity sucks-- but it won't affect the performance you're looking for. Lets face it, if you're looking for an absolute tack driver out to 300M+, go with an 18'' SPR or classic 20'' rifle upper and good ammunition.

The same applies to carbine or middy systems, though middy's are softer shooting (which also means less wear and tear on certain parts).

I'll admit I'm totally in the same boat as you. I've been wanting a LW middy build so bad since I got my BCM basic 14.5'' carbine build up and running. Though, for variety's sake, I am considering a 20'' rifle upper

[axeman_g 128]

Build it as you want it. There is no REAL downside. After you build it can my broke ass come shoot it?

[Tactical Monkey 51]

I think it is an unique question to be asked though, especially in a state like NJ where we have to permanently attach the muzzle device regardless........EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS.......I'll admit I'm totally in the same boat as you. I've been wanting a LW middy build so bad since I got my BCM basic 14.5'' carbine build up and running. Though, for variety's sake, I am considering a 20'' rifle upper

 

I did not see post on M4carbines but I may head over to check it out. Regarding what you posted, I couldn't of said it better myself. When I break down how I shoot it's as follows (rough estimates):

70% standing (offhand)

20% kneeling/sitting

10% prone

 

Combine those numbers with the distances that I am shooting at, with a max of 100yds due to range limitations:

15% 100 yds

25% 50 yds

60% 25 or less yds

 

So the lost muzzle velocity after 100yrd wouldn't really effect me too much. As long as I can talk the wife into another upper (shouldn't be that hard, since she bought me the stripped lower), I'll prob be picking one up. However if you're looking for a 20" flat top upper, let me know.

 

After you build it can my broke a** come shoot it?

Of course you can... that goes without saying good buddy 8-)

[Mauser88 0]

For starters this is in the AR Discussion section so let's keep it on topic...

 

Please tell me what is wrong with a 14.5" lightweight mid-length gas system upper, with perm attached muzzle device to reach 16"...

 

Here's where I stand:

I have shot a middy and I prefer that to a 16" carbine gas system. I don't know if there is a notable difference between a 16" vs 14.5" middy, but since the perm attached muzzle device argument holds no water in Jersey (it's needed regardless of barrel length), why not get a 1.5" off the barrel? Muzzle velocity loss aside, any other drawback you can think of?

 

Regarding the LW profile, this build would be centered around a KISS mentality, with only potential addition being a LW optic (maybe a Aimpoint H-1). I tend to shoot more faster strings then slow fire, but with only a 100yrd range to shoot at, and a SHTF "realistic" engagement of <100 yards, groups opening up when the barrel gets hot are not really that big of an issue.

 

Lastly I'm thinking PWS FSC556 for the brake, since I have one already...

 

So I've been trying to come up with some decent cons, and have been unsuccessful so far. But before taking the plunge on a new upper I'd like to see what you guys have to say, and perhaps I'm missing something.

 

All opinions welcome...

 

Makes no difference unless you shooting more the 600 yards.

 

Build what pleases you.

[Joelk 61]

I am a big fan of the 14.5" lightweight middy. I have been running one since 2006. It even has the FSC556 you are considering. I have a Aimpoint T-1 on it now (formerly an EOTech), and the lower is a shortened Cavarms. It is a nice light, handy setup.

 

Edited to add: If you are in south jersey let me know when and where you would like to get together and try it.

[Tactical Monkey 51]

I appreciate the offer Joel. I have shot a 14.5" middy before, but just not in a lightweight config. Do you like the Aimpoint T-1?? I currently have a Comp M4 which is really nice but it's 3 times heavier then a T-1/H-1 with mount.

[Joelk 61]

I really like the T-1. All of the Aimpoint reliability and battery life, in a tiny light package.

[axeman_g 128]

Sam,

How did the experiment go yesterday? Did you figure out midy vs carbine?

[Tactical Monkey 51]

Sam,

How did the experiment go yesterday? Did you figure out midy vs carbine?

 

Attempting to make all things equal between the two uppers, I have to go with the Middy.

 

There was a "noticeable" (using that term very lightly) jump/rise/bump when using a magnified optic that I felt took me longer to get back on target with the carbine. It didn't seem as bad when using 1x optic/irons.

 

I would say with some confidence that the middy shoots softer. It has been close to 1k rounds since I fired the carbine, and when comparing 5 shot strings back and forth, the midlength was definitely more pleasant to shoot.

 

However, I am also biased, which leads me to believe it could of also been entirely in my head

[axeman_g 128]

"However, I am also biased, which leads me to believe it could of also been entirely in my head "

 

Isn't most guns on reflection this way? Why cant I shoot a USPC accurately? Why do Walther P99s buck like cougar in my hand? Why is a G19 still in my collection 10 years after i bought.... I dont even like it that much.

 

It is all in our heads... Ford vs Chevy.... V8 versus diesel.... Nissan vs Honda.... VTEC versus Turbo!!!! That is why they make gun safes so big... so we can have as many firearms as we like.

[Shane45 807]

Did both rifles have the same stock?

[Tactical Monkey 51]

Did both rifles have the same stock?

 

Yup, Sully stock used for both...

[Joelk 61]

I like the length of the Sully stock, but I find them to balance best with a heavier barrel. With a lightweight barrel I really prefer a lighter stock, such as a pinned (at whatever lenght you like) Magpul MOE.

[Tactical Monkey 51]

I have an Ace Skeleton Entry length stock ready to go for the lightweight upper on order..... it's ridiculously light

[Joelk 61]

They are light. I had a full length one that I found too long so I shortened the lower tube about 1.5", and made a spacer to use an entry length receiver extension, for a Sully length Ace stock. It isn't bad other than the foam getting a little nasty after too many sweaty summer range days :|

[Tactical Monkey 51]

It isn't bad other than the foam getting a little nasty after too many sweaty summer range days :|

 

I read about that happening, so it was the first fix I did. It's amazing what you can do with some OD paracord and a lighter :twisted: (please excuse the crappy bberry pic)

 

I think it came out pretty good 8-)

[Joelk 61]

I think it came out pretty good 8-)

Definitely, good job!

[Tactical Monkey 51]

Thanks Joel! Now I just have to wait for the LW upper to arrive...

[Shane45 807]

The reason I asked because my own pursuits and discussion uncovered (at least for me) that a stock can have almost as much influence on muzzle rise as a compensator. Something I would have never suspected.

[Tactical Monkey 51]

The reason I asked because my own pursuits and discussion uncovered (at least for me) that a stock can have almost as much influence on muzzle rise as a compensator.

 

Interesting. Do you feel that has more to do with the affecting general balance of the weapon, or the angle of the end of the butt stock and how it "rests" in the shoulder pocket, etc? Please explain as I'm curious to what your findings were...

[Cylinder Head 22]

Personal preferences or not, from what I've learned from people who shoot people, velocity is THE factor for 5.56. I'd rather have the extra FPS and deal with another inch on the end of my weapon.

[Shane45 807]

CH, you must keep in mind that civy ammo does not have the same fragmentation @ given velocity limitations that mil ammo has. So the trigger pullers experience in military ops likely will not translate into our world with all the ammo options we have.

 

As to muzzle rise, all ergonomics that have an effect on the bore axis comes into play. So whatever does the best keeping it all in line is likely to do the best in relation to muzzle rise. Also having good ergonomics that keep you in proper position will help as well. For example someone that has a scope on a carry handle is going to get pulled out of postion with their chin weld. They will likley experience more muzzle rise.