Rant

[ronhonda 86]

I don't know but, we all live in NJ and we know the law regarding firearms correct?

So when we see stuff that we know is not "legal" here, why do we bother?

Is it our responsibility to make sure everyone else is following the law? Or should we just worry about ourselves?

It is one thing if someone does not know the full letter of the law and we try to tell them to try to help them. But the others? I think we need to let them be.

Not trying to start a huge argument here but, I have no control over what other people do. I can only control what I do and will go from there.

[Jon 264]

If I see something that is against NJ law, as far as mag capacity, evil features, etc. I will give the owner a heads up, so they don't get in trouble. If they respond that they know what they have is illegal, so be it. My only concern is keeping them out of trouble if they were ignorant of the law.

[Vlad G 345]

Not disagreeing with you, but also keep in mind that not everyone knows what the law actually is, it's not like we have nice clear laws. For example .. Flash suppressors and un-pinned threaded muzzles are against the law, right? Except .. Could someone point me to the NJ statutes that say that? I'll help you out even, Here are the releveant statutes.

 

PS: yes I know where the whole thing is coming from, and I don't recommend people not follow the "guidelines", but we are basically allowing non elected officials to make laws.

[ronhonda 86]

Yes I agree with helping those that do not know and trying to point them in the right direction.

 

Vlad, This not actually what you think it is about. More so along the lines of "mind your own business" and worry about your own shite. Not what someone else is doing or selling(main point of the rant)

[RecessedFilter 222]

I agree with Vlad, I think a lot of people just don't really know the gun laws in NJ and end up buying 30rd mags because they 'don't know' that the maximum capacity is 15.

 

I don't really try to get involved in other peoples business. If the person is acting like a jerk off at the range and has a collapsible stock, I will just turn my head. If I strike up conversation with someone at the range and they are very friendly and out to have a good time, and they have a 20rd mag in their glock, then I might just bring up something very brief about it. If they care about it, then that's good. If they could care less about my input, then that's ok too. They'll be the one going to jail, not me.

[Vlad G 345]

Vlad, This not actually what you think it is about. More so along the lines of "mind your own business" and worry about your own shite. Not what someone else is doing or selling(main point of the rant)

 

Agreed.

[ronhonda 86]

I agree with Vlad, I think a lot of people just don't really know the gun laws in NJ and end up buying 30rd mags because they 'don't know' that the maximum capacity is 15.

 

I don't really try to get involved in other peoples business. If the person is acting like a jerk off at the range and has a collapsible stock, I will just turn my head. If I strike up conversation with someone at the range and they are very friendly and out to have a good time, and they have a 20rd mag in their glock, then I might just bring up something very brief about it. If they care about it, then that's good. If they could care less about my input, then that's ok too. They'll be the one going to jail, not me.

 

I tend to act in a similar manner.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I agree with Vlad, I think a lot of people just don't really know the gun laws in NJ and end up buying 30rd mags because they 'don't know' that the maximum capacity is 15.

 

I don't really try to get involved in other peoples business. If the person is acting like a jerk off at the range and has a collapsible stock, I will just turn my head. If I strike up conversation with someone at the range and they are very friendly and out to have a good time, and they have a 20rd mag in their glock, then I might just bring up something very brief about it. If they care about it, then that's good. If they could care less about my input, then that's ok too. They'll be the one going to jail, not me.

 

How often does that happen though? If you're a law-abiding citizen, you don't beat your wife, deal in drugs/guns, or even rob banks, how is anyone ever gonna know? Even at the range, who is really checking?

 

I get why we follow the letter of the law (peace of mind being 99.99999999% of it), but I also feel like a friggin sheep doing it.

[Rifleman1 32]

I would guess that there are many citizens who have purchased guns and equipment out of state and brought them to Jersey as a home defense weapon never expecting to have to use them and never going through the licensing/permitting/registration routines. Many of them do not feel they should have to be or want to be fingerprinted and then show up on the grid.

[Rifleman1 32]

How often does that happen though? If you're a law-abiding citizen, you don't beat your wife, deal in drugs/guns, or even rob banks, how is anyone ever gonna know? Even at the range, who is really checking?

 

I get why we follow the letter of the law (peace of mind being 99.99999999% of it), but I also feel like a friggin sheep doing it.

 

You would think that there would be off-duty LEO's shooting at the range that may know of the laws and would spot some of these violations. 30 round magazines are highly visable.

[Maksim 1,504]

Devs,

 

At the public ranges... you better know they DO check.

 

At BH, SS, and BA as well as Dix. A few times I had an RO come "check out" my mags that were blocked 30 rounders. With 20 round blocked mags, never had issues.

 

There are two issues here...

 

1. the "I didn't know, and just bought these at PA and no one asked me" people.

and

2. the "I know the law, and I either don't care, or choose to take the risk" people.

 

I would say the vast majority of the people are the number 1 group, and I will always mention it to someone, especially if I am at a public range. Why? Because they are most likely the casual shooter, and just don't know.

 

The group you encounter Ronny, would probably be the later group, and they are at the events/environments where people know the law. To these people, let them pound sand, they know the risks. Now that I think of it, this group may also cause issues for everyone else... knowing omitting the law, and thus as a result get it shut down for other people.

 

What a problem that this causes is.... say someone else is new to firearms, sees someone with a 30 round AR mag in the state, or an unpinned AR stock, or a magazine with 15+ 12 in the pipe, and think it is ok. People are afraid to look stupid and will not always ask questions, in part, this is why this forum exists, a low pressure place to ask questions and learn.

 

My take on it, if you are on your property, do as you please, blow a cat if you want to, but when your actions affect EVERYONE ELSE, especially every gun owner, it is less black and white, and I dont quite know that "mind your own business" is truly the best course of action.

[vjf915 456]

I tend to agree with what most others have said. If the person is just a casual shooter, I will try to mention it discretely to them. One simple mention can go two ways. One being "I didn't know that my magazine/stock was illegal, can you explain more?" In which case, I will explain more. Or I will get "I know it's illegal, but just don't care. I know I won't get caught." At which point I say "Have a nice day." and probably just leave the range.

 

Ron, I don't want to get into other peoples business. But breaking firearms laws can screw someone up with legal bills, a criminal record, having a hard time getting a job.....for the rest of their life. If they simply don't know, I would want to help them if they are willing to accept advice.

[Dan 177]

No harm in mentioning something. Worse thing that will happen is getting a "mind your own business" face-palm.

[ronhonda 86]

OK so this is not the way I wanted to go, so here it is.

This post is the basis of my rant. http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23886-i-am-a-lil-confused-about-this-gb-listing/

[Maksim 1,504]

Humn, Ronny, the other thread really is a valid thread, and a great discussion.

 

The fact is, with AR's, AK's, the small things, like how it is labeled on the receiver make the difference if it is legal or not. A questionable item was listed for sale. People are discussing it. =)

[DevsAdvocate 112]

You would think that there would be off-duty LEO's shooting at the range that may know of the laws and would spot some of these violations. 30 round magazines are highly visable.

 

I've used my 15/30 Pmag at BH a bunch of times, and no one bothered me at all. Heck, no one even tried to give me "free" legal advice either. As for a 17 rounder in a glock 17, how can anyone notice that just by looking at the pistol?

[ronhonda 86]

I understand that and perhaps i was looking at it the wrong way.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Devs,

 

At the public ranges... you better know they DO check.

 

At BH, SS, and BA as well as Dix. A few times I had an RO come "check out" my mags that were blocked 30 rounders. With 20 round blocked mags, never had issues.

 

There are two issues here...

 

1. the "I didn't know, and just bought these at PA and no one asked me" people.

and

2. the "I know the law, and I either don't care, or choose to take the risk" people.

 

I would say the vast majority of the people are the number 1 group, and I will always mention it to someone, especially if I am at a public range. Why? Because they are most likely the casual shooter, and just don't know.

 

The group you encounter Ronny, would probably be the later group, and they are at the events/environments where people know the law. To these people, let them pound sand, they know the risks. Now that I think of it, this group may also cause issues for everyone else... knowing omitting the law, and thus as a result get it shut down for other people.

 

What a problem that this causes is.... say someone else is new to firearms, sees someone with a 30 round AR mag in the state, or an unpinned AR stock, or a magazine with 15+ 12 in the pipe, and think it is ok. People are afraid to look stupid and will not always ask questions, in part, this is why this forum exists, a low pressure place to ask questions and learn.

 

My take on it, if you are on your property, do as you please, blow a cat if you want to, but when your actions affect EVERYONE ELSE, especially every gun owner, it is less black and white, and I dont quite know that "mind your own business" is truly the best course of action.

 

This last part really pisses me off. The government is going to go out of it's way to make us criminals by passing confusing laws and sending equally confused agents to police them. In fact, given enough time, we all break the law.

 

If the government's aim is to make us all criminals, then what's the harm in bending the law anyway? The lawmaker and their enforcers do it. They can hide behind their badges and institutions of power, but we have to play the part of docile sheep?

 

I ask this more on a hypothetical note than anything else.

[bbk 188]

To me, its a matter of keeping things "in-house." If we, as a community, don't police each other, it seems pointless to get upset when incidents do occur and rule enforcers deal out the punishment.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

To me, its a matter of keeping things "in-house." If we, as a community, don't police each other, it seems pointless to get upset when incidents do occur and rule enforcers deal out the punishment.

 

No one in Trenton is gonna buy that. The concept of "self-policing" is admirable, if not naive, but it's not gonna stop the Lou Greenwalds or Sheila Olivers in the statehouse from thinking of the next way to screw us over...

[Maksim 1,504]

So a community of gun owners should just let everyone run wild?

 

This is not Kentucky, or PA for that matter, gun owners are the vast minority in NJ. We do not make laws, so as a community, can we let someone run loose?

 

The only way we can expand our rights is to get more gun owners, and people open to guns in New Jersey.

 

When someone gets arrested or charged for high cap mags or what not, the newspaper will not explain why, all they will have is a headline...

 

"NJ resident breaks multiple gun laws, charged with possessing an assault weapon with high capacity magazines designed to kill 30 or more people."

 

If 1 in 3 residents was a gun owner, they would know it is most likely a sporting AR or what not with a regular capacity magazine... a non gun owner will automatically think Killer Kalashnikov with a 100 round drum in Full Auto mode.

 

I am all for personal rights, and civil liberties... except when they interfere with my own rights and liberties.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

So a community of gun owners should just let everyone run wild?

 

This is not Kentucky, or PA for that matter, gun owners are the vast minority in NJ. We do not make laws, so as a community, can we let someone run loose?

 

"Run wild"? A guy shooting a 30 rounder at the range is 'running wild' now? Geez. Anyways, you're right. We DON'T make the laws, but obeying them willfully isn't going to guarantee that they don't get worse. Every single gun owner in this state can abide the law to the letter, and the folks in Trenton will always want more. We will always be punished for the actions of the few.

 

In essence: good behavior isn't buying us any favors.

 

The only way we can expand our rights is to get more gun owners, and people open to guns in New Jersey.

 

When someone gets arrested or charged for high cap mags or what not, the newspaper will not explain why, all they will have is a headline...

 

"NJ resident breaks multiple gun laws, charged with possessing an assault weapon with high capacity magazines designed to kill 30 or more people."

 

I agree with the first part, but the last two parts are out of our hands. We can't change how the media and it's handlers want to portray us. We're rednecks and schoolkid killers in their eyes, loading 30 round mass murder magazines with hollow point armor piercing exploding rounds. We lost the battle of perception in this state. They don't care about the goody-two-shoes gun owner with his compliant weapons. He's just another nut with an arsenal and 5,000 rounds of death bullets that he got on sale from Luckygunner. If not him, then it's the gang banger in Newark who used his illegally obtained glock to murder 3 kids in a gang initiation. If not him, then it's the bank robber with a Mossberg 500 "assault weapon" shotgun.

 

We can't possibly depend on the state and national media to build up our presence in this state. Again: good behavior won't buy favors here.

 

If 1 in 3 residents was a gun owner, they would know it is most likely a sporting AR or what not with a regular capacity magazine... a non gun owner will automatically think Killer Kalashnikov with a 100 round drum in Full Auto mode.

 

I am all for personal rights, and civil liberties... except when they interfere with my own rights and liberties.

 

That's great and all. My question however is: does blindly following the law really ever work out in our favor?

 

I'm sure in some ghetto in Nazi Germany, Jews were having the same discussions about self-policing their groups, and abiding by the ridiculous laws imposed upon them. I'm sure a few even thought that if they cooperated, they may get treated better. Did that really work out for them in the end? Nope.

[Vlad G 345]

This is not Kentucky, or PA for that matter, gun owners are the vast minority in NJ. We do not make laws, so as a community, can we let someone run loose?

 

As an aside, this may be a mistaken perception. I keep trying to find a more recent study but I'm having no luck, so lets work with 2001 data from Here.

 

New Jersey has a 12.3% gun ownership rate according to that study, though on this I'm going to guess that the number is higher. If someone calls you and asks you if you have guns, how many people are going to say "None of your damn business"? This data is also from pre 9/11 (how many people bought guns then, I know a lot who did), pre-Katrina, pre-Obama. I'm betting the number is much higher.

 

But lets go with 12.3%.

 

New Jersey has 8.7 million people. That makes for about 1 million gun owners. You'd think if they cared they could swing most elections and do get some control over the gun laws.

 

Sadly New Jersey has some of the most apathetic voting public around, and gun owners are no better. We love to hangout in forums, ranges, gun stores (well, some do, I run from gun stores) and **** about our poor fate. And most of the time we are our own worst enemies, in more ways then one.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

As an aside, this may be a mistaken perception. I keep trying to find a more recent study but I'm having no luck, so lets work with 2001 data from Here.

 

New Jersey has a 12.3% gun ownership rate according to that study, though on this I'm going to guess that the number is higher. If someone calls you and asks you if you have guns, how many people are going to say "None of your damn business"? This data is also from pre 9/11 (how many people bought guns then, I know a lot who did), pre-Katrina, pre-Obama. I'm betting the number is much higher.

 

But lets go with 12.3%.

 

New Jersey has 8.7 million people. That makes for about 1 million gun owners. You'd think if they cared they could swing most elections and do get some control over the gun laws.

 

Sadly New Jersey has some of the most apathetic voting public around, and gun owners are no better. We love to hangout in forums, ranges, gun stores (well, some do, I run from gun stores) and **** about our poor fate. And most of the time we are our own worst enemies, in more ways then one.

 

1 million is a lot, but it's watered down by gerrymandering and the fact we're spread out over the whole state.

[bbk 188]

It seems you are arguing something radically different from what is actually being discussed, Dev.

 

Whether or not we, as a community or individuals, agree with a law, in who's best interest is it to break said law? (Considering the sh-tstorm that would be felt from both the rule enforcers and media.)

If one feels so inclined, we all have the right and ability to contact our local and state and Federal politicians through certain channels. If we feel more inclined, we can join advocacy groups at the local, state, and national level. Through these channels we can voice our displeasure and lend possible, lawful solutions to the issue.

 

However, regardless of our convictions, it rarely gives us the right to break the rules as we see fit. Of course there is always the argument of our founding fathers and how they stood up for their beliefs-- but there are also cases like McVeigh or Heemeyer. It could also be argued those are different cases and should not be broad-stroked as the same, but how actions/comments are perceived are not up to our personal discretion, but by the individual who perceives them. Which, going full-circle, is important why we, as a community, look out for each other and either try to help the misguided-- or avoid them all together.

[StephanieSeven 70]

My take on it, if you are on your property, do as you please, blow a cat if you want to...

The inner workings of your mind is a little terrifying...and that's coming from me.

[Vlad G 345]

1 million is a lot, but it's watered down by gerrymandering and the fact we're spread out over the whole state.

 

There are 112933 teachers in the state and they are the most powerful lobby.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

There are 112933 teachers in the state and they are the most powerful lobby.

 

It's easy to do when you get taxpayer dollars and are the jewels in the eyes of Trenton.

[KpdPipes 388]

There are 112933 teachers in the state and they are the most powerful lobby.

And they also happen to Vote the way the majority of the state already does, not to mention having the advantage of the "It's for the Children" argument when they want something.

[Vlad G 345]

More importantly that dollars and such, is that they are organized.