Can gun games get you killed?

[SSlav 14]

it has been proven time and time again that when under stress you revert back to your most instinctive skills..

 

The most instinctive skill instilled in USPSA is "looking" bullets on target.

 

spend 5,000 hours dumping rounds from your race gun from an uncovered position

 

That is funny for so many reasons. First the two main "gamers" in this argument shoot in production division (division which places severe limits on modifications to the firearms) the vast majority of the time. And second the idea of uncovered position. USPSA does not require you to take cover. That does not mean by any stretch that you do not shoot from cover. Course designs frequently force you to shoot around corners in a way that severly limits your exposure.

 

 

but there are certainly better options for training if self defense is the ultimate goal..

 

 

What are they?

[Joelk 61]

Sure, because we are all lairs and cheaters now.

 

Vlad, I am not accusing you of being a liar of cheater.

 

However, when I shot a 3 gun match in PA last year I was squaded with team Noveske and I watched them attempt to cheat/streatch the rules on a stage, be penalized for it, and then one of their members argued and cried like a little **** when the match staff called them on it. This did not leave me with a high opinion of some competitors integrity.

[Shane45 807]

Vladtepes, your tracking 100%.

 

 

Slav, I think your just too ignorant to talk too. Everyone in this thread seems to head in a somewhat productive direction until you open your mouth.

 

You made the assertion that perhaps we are unfamilier with games. I gave full disclosure of how and why to illustrate familiarity yet you still choose to be a dick. How can my very first match in my life be impressive. Im sure the rest of the world understood my point that getting squaded with them and treated so well AT MY FIRST MATCH EVER is what got me into the sport and coming back. But as usual you have nothing productive to offer.

 

Slav its abundantly clear that your just butt hurt about being a gamer. I cant count the pm's that have said so. So go play your games and let the adults talk.

 

Vlad, it appears to me you may have a genuine interest in evaluating what is being said but your buddy there keeps polerizing the discussion and derailing it.

[Vlad G 345]

I was there for that, and although I did not see Noveske do it, I heard about it. Hell, I think I was in the squad ahead of you guys. While I wasn't impressed but what they tried to pull in competitive context, wasn't there in this thread a bunch of stuff about how life has not set rules, so in that context can you blame them from trying to wring every bit of advantage?

[bbk 188]

What are they?

 

I would recommend a type of martial arts myself. Being able to pull a trigger is great and all, but it doesn't seem to prioritize the mindset of having to defend one's life and/or others by tapping into a potential that we're all capable.

Because as I've said repeatedly, but had no response, the core difference between competitive shooting and defending one's life HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MECHANICAL SKILL (though it is important, no doubt). If someone is threatening me, I hope I have a firearm (esp if they have one). But I'll take a knife, a 2x4, a pipe, a pair of scissors, my belt, or the pen I always keep in my pocket. And I know how I would react because I've made peace with that, and have trained for that, and know how it actually feels.

To me, a martial art, and really more so the program/instructor that is teaching it, will focus more on the mindset then the technique. Even basic training follows the same concept. Sure, they teach us all the stuff of how to destroy a threat using a wide array of tools, but they slam it into our souls/heads (sometimes literally) the mental repercussions of why we must succeed (and what can result of our failure). What are corrective actions for? To make us physically stronger (through pushups, cherry pickers, low-crawling through a sand/mud pit for a few hours, etc), but more so to make sure we mentally know why something is important as opposed to simply knowing that something is important.

 

I already have had this conversation with a few people in PM, and we do agree that it is difficult to understand without having experienced this type of stress, whether it was theory-based or applied. Personally, I don't know if I ever wanted to develop the ability to be able to harness this possibly destructive potential, though that is a moot point now. Point is, a lot of us are coming from this perspective, and a lot of the gamers are coming from the perspective where this mindset is not the focal point (or so it seems). And because of that, we're running in circles in our arguments. So, I say let us leave it to the 11th (if that is the final date), and put some of this theory to test.

[lunker 274]

The most instinctive skill instilled in USPSA is "looking" bullets on target.

 

 

 

That is funny for so many reasons. First the two main "gamers" in this argument shoot in production division (division which places severe limits on modifications to the firearms) the vast majority of the time. And second the idea of uncovered position. USPSA does not require you to take cover. That does not mean by any stretch that you do not shoot from cover. Course designs frequently force you to shoot around corners in a way that severly limits your exposure.

 

 

 

 

 

What are they?

 

I just read this entire thread. God, I hope you are not this unpleasant in person. It's one thing to not suffer fools gladly, but your comments are almost always provocative and instigating. If I extract your comments from this thread, it suddenly becomes much more informative and civilized.

[vladtepes 1,060]

 

That is funny for so many reasons. First the two main "gamers" in this argument shoot in production division (division which places severe limits on modifications to the firearms) the vast majority of the time. And second the idea of uncovered position. USPSA does not require you to take cover. That does not mean by any stretch that you do not shoot from cover. Course designs frequently force you to shoot around corners in a way that severly limits your exposure.

 

 

 

no assumption should be made that I was talking about anyone here.. my comments where more geared towards people shooting impractical competitions that allow for the use of highly modified firearms which are far different than those carried by most people.. the skill of shooting I still have respect for.. as stated... it is just not IMO the best practice for using a firearm in a self defense situation..

[Joelk 61]

Did I write anywhere that I was unwilling? I simply stated that the skills that would be tested have nothing to do with USPSA. As it happens I actually do have some relevant skills that I would not mind testing. However that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand - bad habits taught in USPSA - which have been summarized as a grand total of two - 1. Not using cover and 2. Dropping mags on the ground. Neither of which are relevant in the case of a knife attack.

 

 

I am not familiar with the specific matches you are writing about. However they are not the larger ones of what is locally available. There is a danger in thinking of yourself as a big fish when you are playing in a small pond. That is the only reason why I travel to some regional matches. My chances of winning are nill, but it helps to put things in perspective.

 

As to the "reality" based scenarios - as someone who has had a bit of actual first hand exposure to street crime I can tell you that the knife wielding maniac jumping out of nowhere to attack you for no apparent reason is pretty f-ing far from reality.

I never said you were unwilling, it just seems like most of the competition crowd just wants to recreate competition. This has changed my opinion of competition shooters, and I now think that their biggest flaw is the mindset that competition is of any benefit at all in real self defense scenarios, and that they are prepared to defend themselves. I think that they need to do some research on how criminals act, the distances involved, etc.

 

Believe me, I don't even think I am a big fish in a small pond, I have trained with too many people who have left me aspiring to become a minnow.

 

As to real street crime, the video I posted is from a class taught by a police officer, with many years of undercover expierience, based on what he has distilled from those expieriences.

[Shane45 807]

Ray, for clarity, I made no assertion you werent good enough. My assertion is that since you have not competed in something like uspsa for a long time doing the repetition of a bad thing enough times to ingrain said bad "habit" into your muslce memory. This makes you a bad candidate for that catagory or test, not a bad shooter. Cant try a quit smoking patch on a non smoker.....

[Shane45 807]

Joel, I absolutely agree. Like I said somewhere else in these threads, I absolutely could not become competitive in IDPA until I stopped trying to USPSA the stages and changed the mindset to "consider the targets armed and shooting back". I STILL wrestle with the tendancy to run into the open and hose down the targets! So take it one step further to real life... well its easy to connect the dots.

[Joelk 61]

I was there for that, and although I did not see Noveske do it, I heard about it. Hell, I think I was in the squad ahead of you guys. While I wasn't impressed but what they tried to pull in competitive context, wasn't there in this thread a bunch of stuff about how life has not set rules, so in that context can you blame them from trying to wring every bit of advantage?

I don't blame them for trying. I just found it funny as I knew what they were going to try from hearing their questions to the stage staff, and that what they tried was in direct contradiction to the written rules for the event. I must admit that I was a bit of a dick (what a surprise ) and reminded the team member who was either in law school at the time, or who had just graduated, of the parole evidence rule.

 

The rest of the team were really good guys, and I felt bad for them.

 

It was, however, a pleasure to be squaded with the best two teams that day, watch them shoot, and to try to learn what I could from it.

 

Edited to add: I agree with your statement about life having no rules to a degree as, unfortunately, we hage too many legal rules to comply with, but competition does have rules, and I guess those rules are a part of what this thread is about

[Vlad G 345]

Ray, for clarity, I made no assertion you werent good enough. My assertion is that since you have not competed in something like uspsa for a long time doing the repetition of a bad thing enough times to ingrain said bad "habit" into your muslce memory. This makes you a bad candidate for that catagory or test, not a bad shooter. Cant try a quit smoking patch on a non smoker.....

 

Hold a moment, I think that it makes him an IDEAL candidate. The questions presented here, in the thread title, is can gun games get you killed? Not if 2-3 trained fighters can defeat one untrained one like myself, that is a forgone conclusion I have already granted. The theory presented here is that I have bad habits from my USPSA shooting. I posit that if Ray doesn't (and has the advantage of having gone through boot camp, and I think he is younger and more fit then me) then he is the ideal candidate to contrast to me. Putting him and I to the SAME test should shed some light on the question of can gun games get you killed? Testing weather you and Tosser can kill me is not the the question being discussed, the question is can you kill me "more" because of my bad habits when compared to someone who doesn't have them.

[ronhonda 86]

This is extremely entertaining, so let me start pissing in this contest as well.

USPSA, IDPA 3GUN, Cowboy, airsoft, etc they are all GAMES! We play the game within the established rules and compete against one another, and we go home at the end of the day.

If your profession calls on you to be armed and be in harms way, your mindset has to be different than that of a gamer.

So whatever is being set up is all fine and dandy but you can't expect to compare certain skills "learned" in the gun games to be useful in a force on force scenario. Unless you are a 3Gun champion who is a world class MMA fighter on the side.

I see that Vlad, Slav, voodoodaddy and others are willing to participate in the experiment that is being set up. Are they willing to participate in our (yes I am a GAMER) game? Of course we can set something up where we all use the same equipment to try and make a level playing field. (glocks, 1911's, sigs, whatever)

[hd2000fxdl 422]

This thread is not turning out to be the most productive with the this is better than that and what not. I think the bottom line is Not practicing any shooting is a disadvantage, Shooting any discipline regardless of type is an advantage and think it even has an advantage over just shooting at the range. Gaming as it has been refereed to promotes quicker draws in some sports, more familiarity in changing mags, more experience with shotting on the move.

 

Overall, no practice isn't going to do anything, standing at the range is going to get you more accurate with practice, competition shooting is going to have you learn a few more skill sets.

 

No none of us know how we will deal with a real situation, and even people who have run through Simunitions still have it in the back of there mind that is it Simunitions, the only way for any of us to know how we will react to a real threat is to be in a real threat and god I hope none of us ever have to be in that situation.

 

There is one thing I do find funny and just because I shoot USPSA (very new and not good at all, YET) but I do know if I was in a real situation I would not just walk like I am shooting a match and try and gun everyone down like they were targets or steel, I would more than likely be hiding my butt behind cover and do what ever I need to do to come out of it alive, and until I am in that situation, I will not know how well I will do or not do.

 

In the end, you practice what you want for fun, do what you want for fun, hopefully get better at it over time, and if you really want to train for an attack, there are places to do that and if you have the coin to put out for it, great, if not and that's not your cup of tea, so be it, but this My way of training is better than your isn't getting any of us anyplace.

 

Harry

[Shane45 807]

Vlad I agree, in the context of the thread, I meant he's not an ideal candidate for that catagory and the comment I made that may of offended him. But I DO think he is a good candidate for the non competition shooter catagory which is why I included him if you look back for the same reasons you state.

[Shane45 807]

Ronny, Im not sure what that would prove. What question are we trying to answer by coming to a USPSA match? And for clarity, what exactly is our game. In my eyes we will have to make something up! Im sure Joel and Nick have some ideas AND THATS good because I for one am not exactly sure how to set up test that will actually test what we are trying to determine.

[Vlad G 345]

Vlad I agree, in the context of the thread, I meant he's not an ideal candidate for that catagory and the comment I made that may of offended him. But I DO think he is a good candidate for the non competition shooter catagory which is why I included him if you look back for the same reasons you state.

 

Yay, we agree

[Shane45 807]

hd I think your missing a bit of the point. To use Vlad's example. People come to a USPSA match for the first time and since they are used to always starting with an empty pistol because they are used to a static square range, they always eject a live round on accident when making ready at a part of a stage. They eject said round because they are under some stress and revert to doing what they do most. Our assertion is that some things that you do in gun games MAY have that same effect if you found yourself in a real life situation.

[Shane45 807]

To move items off the table at least in my eyes there is no dispute for the following:

 

A shooter that competes in just about any action oriented pistol or rifle gun game is far better off than someone that neither competes or trains or attends quality training classes.

 

Gun games improve gun handling, accuracy, speed.

 

Gun games ARE NOT TRAINING.

 

Did I miss any?

[SSlav 14]

Vlad, I am not accusing you of being a liar of cheater.

 

However, when I shot a 3 gun match in PA last year I was squaded with team Noveske and I watched them attempt to cheat/streatch the rules on a stage, be penalized for it, and then one of their members argued and cried like a little **** when the match staff called them on it. This did not leave me with a high opinion of some competitors integrity.

 

I do not know the Noveske shooters personally though I know that they are pretty strong. Not knowing the actual facts in this case I will play a devil's advocate.

 

What you need to understand is that you are participating in a competition based on "free style". What that means is that anything not explicitly defined by the rules is left to shooter's discretion. Generally that translates into - "shoot them if you see them" approach. If you can see a target you can shoot at it. If a different behavior is desired it is a responsibility of a stage designer to either physically make that happen - by placing walls and vision barriers or by explicitly writing a limitation into the stage description. This differs from IDPA where they are big on "intent" of the stage. In the core of this is the idea of "equitable shooting challenge" - the idea that the same challenge is presented to all shooters. If the game is played strictly by the rules as written, the "equitable shooting challenge" is preserved. If on the other hand an RO has some ideas as to the "intent" there is no guarantee that a different RO who takes over later in the day will not have a different idea as to "intent". That could place one group of shooters at a competitive disadvantage compared to another group of shooters. I'll give two specific examples that happened at the recent NY Stare Rifle Match.

 

1. Shoot house. Upon entering shooter can see a couple of targets straight ahead and one to the right. The the target to the right is presented at an extreme angle, but is clearly visible. It can also be seen at a much better angle from another locations in the house but that forces an extra stop and costs extra time. A shooter on the squad engages that target from the entrance and completes the course of fire. He is told that the hits on the target will not count because he "was not supposed to shoot them from there". Is that shooter supposed to accept that ruling? Is he a whiny biatch if he demands that the rules are enforced as written? The shooter argues and is supported by the rules. The hits are accepted. But ROs then turn the target slightly to make it unavailable from the entrance? Is this fair to other shooters? Doesn't it break the "equitable shooting challenge" premise? Should the other shooters "cry like biatches" or accept it?

 

2. A stage has a Texas star. At the walk through, the RO explains that one of the plates on the star sticks occasionally and if that happens they will call a hit on it and the shooter should just continue. A shooter objects by stating that if it is one of the top plates, the star will be unbalanced and will behave more erratically. Is this whining like a biatch? Or is it an attempt to make sure that the idea of "equitable shooting challenge" is preserved? BTW the rules as written state that if a plate is hit and does not fall, it is considered a range equipment failure and the shooter gets a re-shoot.

 

In some case whining is whining. And in some cases what is seen as an attempt to "stretch the rules" is in fact an insistence on strict adherence to those very rules.

[ronhonda 86]

Ronny, Im not sure what that would prove. What question are we trying to answer by coming to a USPSA match? And for clarity, what exactly is our game. In my eyes we will have to make something up! Im sure Joel and Nick have some ideas AND THATS good because I for one am not exactly sure how to set up test that will actually test what we are trying to determine.

 

Nothing, it will prove nothing.

Regardless of what the outcome from the exercise that you Joel, and Nick set up, it will prove nothing.

We are not robots so we can't really say how we will react to certain situations. Unless you are shooting an IDPA match because from what I have seen, there is only ONE CORRECT way to shoot any given stage.

But seriously Harry had a fantastic comment on this thread;

 

" In the end, you practice what you want for fun, do what you want for fun, hopefully get better at it over time, and if you really want to train for an attack, there are places to do that and if you have the coin to put out for it, great, if not and that's not your cup of tea, so be it, but this My way of training is better than your isn't getting any of us anyplace."

 

Maybe we need to start a new shooting "sport" that incorporates all the disciplines with the added twist of hand to hand combat.

That way we can truly say that participating in "USPSA-IDPA-3GUN-WWE-MMA" has made me more prepared to encounter he dangers that the real world has.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

hd I think your missing a bit of the point. To use Vlad's example. People come to a USPSA match for the first time and since they are used to always starting with an empty pistol because they are used to a static square range, they always eject a live round on accident when making ready at a part of a stage. They eject said round because they are under some stress and revert to doing what they do most. Our assertion is that some things that you do in gun games MAY have that same effect if you found yourself in a real life situation.

 

I don't think i am missing the point of the thread and how it has evolve in it's totality they may have strayed a little but all additions to the discussions.

 

The point I was trying to make, it any form of practice is going to help you out over not practicing at all. If ALL you are concerned about is an attack, then focus your training on that. While if you only train for an attack you will fair better in that 1 in a 100000 chance of it happening to each of us individually, but to have the appearance that any other discipline in shooting may not be helpful or form bad habits isn't completely true.

 

Also it depends on the individual, you can have a person who all they do is practice attack scenarios and get very proficient in them, but put it to the ultimate test and THAT person may not deal with it well.

 

Only point I was trying to make, it this thread while has opened up some side discussions and different perspectives still has an underling tone of my way of training is better than yours, while I just feel any form of training is going to gain anyone with an advantage over no training.

 

Hey I don't have a dog in the fight so I'm not for one side or another, I just find it entertaining that this thread has probably been the most active and quickest growing thread I can remember and I wanted in on it.

 

Harry

 

Harry

[SSlav 14]

I would recommend a type of martial arts myself. Being able to pull a trigger is great and all, but it doesn't seem to prioritize the mindset of having to defend one's life and/or others by tapping into a potential that we're all capable.

 

Been there, done that. But then I feel that USPSA/IDPA etc...are also martial arts.

[Vlad G 345]

hd I think your missing a bit of the point. To use Vlad's example. People come to a USPSA match for the first time and since they are used to always starting with an empty pistol because they are used to a static square range, they always eject a live round on accident when making ready at a part of a stage. They eject said round because they are under some stress and revert to doing what they do most. Our assertion is that some things that you do in gun games MAY have that same effect if you found yourself in a real life situation.

 

Ah see I don't have a problem with that statement. You are saying "MAY". However:

 

The muscle memory from matches will get you killed.

 

That statement contains no "MAY", it is an absolute, and that is what I take issue with, and I have all along.

 

A shooter that competes in just about any action oriented pistol or rifle gun game is far better off than someone that neither competes or trains or attends quality training classes.

 

And that is the crux of my argument. Your statement right there invalidates the premise that "gun games will get you killed". That was my point all along, and I'm glad to see you say it.

[Shane45 807]

Ronny, I think your missing some of the salient points. There is no debate about competition vs training. There is little debate about 1 game vs another.

 

The debate in its MOST BASIC form is if you do something that is a bad habit for real life survival MANY times in (insert whatever venue you like here) is there the risk of doing it in a real life survival situation. Thats it. Pretty simple question.

[bbk 188]

Alright, thread has run its course. We're just :thsmiley_deadhorse: x9

 

At this point, send out the invites via PM for the FOF thing (as it would be an interesting scenario), or create a thread over in the events subforum (though we'll keep debate out of the thread-- or try I guess).

 

If you feel so strongly about something moving forward, PM the other user(s) (yes, you can do group PMs).

 

ETA: More info on the FOF exercise can be found: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/24534-force-on-force/