Can gun games get you killed?

[SSlav 14]

Another question for those who think that one combination of letters is somehow better than another. Why do USPSA GMs win all the big IDPA matches?

[HuntingPaper 62]

I have no hard feelings towards anyone Ray, no worries. My point is the original statement, in its essence, is that my bad USPSA habits will get me killed. My position is that while I have no doubt that train professionals will perform better then me, given the choice between shooting USPSA and not shooting USPSA, by the professionals rules, which one of us will get killed MORE in a scenario of their choosing. I think that would be an interesting experiment.

Let's make this happen!!!

 

Tosser, Shane and Joel vs. Vlad, Slav and Myself (why not?)

[Shane45 807]

Im game and this isnt the first time I tried to put together force on force. Wheres Wojo? He was interested in instructing a session! BUT I aint doing it with Ray Ray! Hes got a bayonette on his pistol, and well, thats just not fair ROFL.

[Shane45 807]

Luis, yer on the IDPA / Practical Multigun side of the fence bro! At least thats the competitions I see you at!

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I'm down to put a whoopin on anyone! Seriously though, what are we doing?

[HuntingPaper 62]

Luis, yer on the IDPA / Practical Multigun side of the fence bro! At least thats the competitions I see you at!

I do more USPSA actually... sorry

[SSlav 14]

Slav, as usual your missing the point and clearly havent read all the posts. If its worth repeating several times, whats one more... No douubt gun handling and stress indoc are advantages gained by just about any competitive shooting as has been said repeatedly in this thread. The concern is if you only shoot a type of competition A LOT more than training or other types that it would likely be an issue because under real stress you will do what you did most. So if you shoot a metric ton of USPSA and your used to just popping out into the open, you might do that very same thing in a real situation. Or you might go out in the open while reloading or you might go through mags like water because your used to having 4......

 

Just because I choose to ignore a stupid argument does not mean that I did not read it. Being able to look at a target and put bullets on that target a few tenths of a second later is the only ingrained reflex that USPSA teaches you. The rest of it are consciously chosen actions. Lets get together and shoot some airsoft.

[HuntingPaper 62]

I'm down to put a whoopin on anyone! Seriously though, what are we doing?

We all gonna get together and shoot you with paint balls...

[Vlad G 345]

Just in case anyone thinks I'm some sort of ace trying to stack the deck here, I'm not. I'm a decent USPSA shooter but far from a top shooter, I'm basically a B class shooter who stumbled into A class, I'm an overweight, middle aged computer programer, with NO formal training. I'm not offering to undergo this test because I'm hoping to show off to Shane and Tosser in a vain hope to humiliate them at their own game. I'm genuinely interested in this experiment, and gladly post the results here afterwards.

[bbk 188]

Here is one thing every "gun games will get you killed" guy seems to miss. In the situation of real stress you will never perform better, only worse. If you can not hit a target fast, can't hit a target on the move, cant hit a target from an uncomfortable position, hit a target shooting with your weak hand - in the context of the game with the only stress provided by a timer - then what makes you think you will do any better if there are bullets coming the other way?

 

I think this is where the principle difference comes in between competitive shooting and "doing-it-live", which is mindset.

For me, and two-way ranges, its not about hitting my target, or looking damn good doing it. Its about surviving and ensuring that my buddy survives as well, and my tool, hopefully, is a firearm (or whatever is close at hand). Its about laying down a base of fire in which is effective whether I'm hitting the threat, or I'm making it duck its head.

 

Are things different in a home defense type situation? Yes, as the setting is most likely more intimate. Am I going to have access to a select-fire weapon where I can overwhelm the threat? Definitely not. However, the mindset is the same. I'm going to destroy said threat if it is the best suitable option in that moment (which again comes with preparation and mental conditioning), whether that requires a few well-placed shots (hopefully), or throwing a potted plant and then biting someone's ear off (or I guess applying a blood choke is more realistic). I also need to realize when it is best to egress and live for another day.

 

So, I know my response has less to do about being able to pull a trigger, and more about that "moment" that some of us have encountered. But maybe that's where this whole argument eventually leads?

[Joelk 61]

Im game and this isnt the first time I tried to put together force on force. Wheres Wojo? He was interested in instructing a session!

 

I am in as well! Can I bring my sims gun?

 

If you want me to reach out to Wojo just let me know.

[Shane45 807]

"Why do USPSA GMs win all the big IDPA matches? "

 

 

UM Becaue they are IDPA Master shooters too. They also tend to win Bianchi cup, steel challange, Steel matches etc etc and they will likely win whatever comp gets invented tommorow.... Whats your point?

[Shane45 807]

How can you have read it and say "Here is one thing every "gun games will get you killed" guy seems to miss. In the situation of real stress you will never perform better, only worse." This is precisly what has been said by just abouit everyone in this thread that holds a concern about competition. This is what we mean when we say you will be reduced to gross motor skills and autopilot.

[Vlad G 345]

I think his point is that their USPSA bad habits don't automatically cause bad habits in IDPA, which you hold as more realistic.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

I have several airsoft guns available to lend out if this happens.

[Tosser 61]

I think his point is that their USPSA bad habits don't automatically cause bad habits in IDPA, which you hold as more realistic.

 

 

The stress of competition will never match that of a gun fight or even a force on force senario. You are failing, yet again, to grasp the point multiple people have made...

[Babaganoosh 192]

No training, just some crazy stuff I do in Pennsy and local here with my crew.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk but I have opinions, strong opinions, but so does some of my fellow members here. No hard feelings.

 

 

Opinions are one thing, showing up and shooting is another. Try it, you might like it.

[Vlad G 345]

The stress of competition will never match that of a gun fight or even a force on force senario. You are failing, yet again, to grasp the point multiple people have made...

 

When did I ever say that? Go back and read all my posts and quote where I EVER said it does? You are changing the subject towards a point I took as a given: gun games are not training. The topic however is if my game bad habits will get me killed.

[Joelk 61]

0-3 yards, high stress:

 

Lets go

[Shane45 807]

OK Vlad, I understand that point(I think its a bad one) BUT as I said earlier, shooters at that level can switch gears because they do ALL OF IT all the time. BUT I have read from some competitors whos day job is LE say that they HAVE to make sure that their training exceeds their competition training to try and insure that is what they will default too. Who here is a master class shooter in multiple disciplines??? Not I so the relevance is lost.

[SSlav 14]

"Why do USPSA GMs win all the big IDPA matches? "

 

 

UM Becaue they are IDPA Master shooters too. They also tend to win Bianchi cup, steel challange, Steel matches etc etc and they will likely win whatever comp gets invented tommorow.... Whats your point?

 

IDPA Master is equivalent to around Low A/High B USPSA. Your premise is that USPSA teaches you bad habits that you can not overcome. My point is that USPSA guys rock IDPA which you seem to see as better training. IDPA is OK. It has rules that are too subjective for my liking, but aside from that it is fun. But ultimately IDPA is just a game no different from USPSA.

[Vlad G 345]

OK Vlad, I understand that point BUT as I said earlier, shooters at that level can switch gears because they do ALL OF IT all the time. BUT I have read from some competitors whos day job is LE say that they HAVE to make sure that their training exceeds their competition training to try and insure that is what they will default too.

 

Ok, and I will grant that I am not a shooter at that level. JJ could beat me any day with a muzzleloader, with a broken knee, and a hand in a cast, so presumably I also can't change gears like he can, my habits should be well engrained after 10 years of USPSA. Tosser offered an experiment and I think it is a useful one. By your rules, with you and him as judges, lets find out if equally untrained by professionals shooters are going to be harmed more because of the USPSA skills or lack thereof. If my bad habits will get me killed, then Ray should "score" better by whatever standards you establish. I would fully expect that professionally trained people such as yourself and Tosser would perform better, I've never debated they usefulness of training. Your point here and in other threads is that my bad habits will be an DISADVANTAGE.

[Shane45 807]

Slav I disagree with your assertion but more importantly do you think that a competitor at that level is really stressed anymore by competition? I dont.

[Vlad G 345]

Slav I disagree with your assertion but more importantly do you think that a competitor at that level is really stressed anymore by competition? I dont.

 

In my experience the top dogs are extremely stressed at that level of competition. Not only are they driven people who want to win and who have serious competition to contend with, they often have to also worry about representing their sponsors. They are however good at dealing with stress.

[Joelk 61]

Slav I disagree with your assertion but more importantly do you think that a competitor at that level is really stressed anymore by competition? I dont.

That is a good point, as stress inoculations only work as long as the act still causes stress. If you don't care about the result, or are good enough to be truely confident, the stress is just not there.

[Shane45 807]

I dont see how Ray, with no training, no competition of any kind etc etc is representative of our discussion. No offence to Ray. It would be interesting to gauge Ray, KrdShark, You and Joel. That would be an interesting cross section of what I think is each catagory of shooter.

[Vlad G 345]

Sure, whatever and whoever, just not whenever as I do have a life. Lets make this happen. Although I though competition was going to harm me, so why would Ray be at a disadvantage for not having any competition experience.

[Shane45 807]

Vlad, that is more accuratly what I mean. Performance stress is simply part of their job and clearly of little effect. HOWEVER it seems that Top Shot Stress sends a GM shooter home with all misses!!!!!!

[HuntingPaper 62]

0-3 yards, high stress:

 

Lets go

At that distance yoiu are better off stabbing somebody or punching him, that's a lot quicker

[Vlad G 345]

Vlad, that is more accuratly what I mean. Performance stress is simply part of their job and clearly of little effect. HOWEVER it seems that Top Shot Stress sends a GM shooter home with all misses!!!!!!

 

BTW, I wont entertained much conversation of Top Shot, just like won't discuss a hypothetical performance of Les Stroud on CBS's Survivor, so lets keep this on the topic at hand.